Post subject: TAS Multitap activation/deactivation? (SNES)
Joined: 4/1/2010
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Greetings everyone, I recently decided to tackle the TASing Secret of Mana (SNES) Now the problem I'm currently facing is, that I can't seem to find a preferable emulator which supports the usage of Multitaps. For a little overview, as to why I need multitap functionality: - Secret of Mana can be played with up to 3 players, so a lot of optimizations can be done with 3 controllers - Specificially activating/deactivating the multitap during gameplay saves a fair bit of time as well, since SoM has a built-in check to disable the 3rd controller in case no multitap is connected (Which allows for walking in some cutscenes) --> Every multitap has a switch to switch between 2 controllers and 3+ controllers. That's the activating/deactivating I'm talking about lSNES seems to have multitap functionality, but I can't seem to figure out how it works. Any pointers would be nice BizHawk does not support multitap at all from what I can read from the documentation logs Snes9X does feature multitap functionality, but it's not really an acceptable emulator to TAS anymore. Further, to my knowledge I can't simply activate/deactivate it during gameplay Is there an emulator I'm missing that would work with 3+ controllers?
Amaraticando
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lsnes: Load the ROM. Click on File > New > Movie Fill in the form: In general, you don't need to click on the 1st five options. Save prefix is handy, because you don't mix the states of this movie with others, even if you use the same slot. To use many controllers, without a bunch of hotkeys, use Tool > Edit Movie or my Lua script.
Joined: 4/1/2010
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Thank you very much for the quick response. So this would be a reasonable way to TAS this game Now I only hop there is an available solution for the activating and deactivating the multitap on the fly :)
Amaraticando
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I don't think it's possible. Does it somehow affect gameplay?
AntyMew
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Amaraticando wrote:
I don't think it's possible. Does it somehow affect gameplay?
Yagamoth wrote:
- Specificially activating/deactivating the multitap during gameplay saves a fair bit of time as well, since SoM has a built-in check to disable the 3rd controller in case no multitap is connected (Which allows for walking in some cutscenes)
@Yagamoth: As far as I can tell lsnes doesn't support unplugging controllers. Maybe there's a way to edit the input file directly to skip a controller, but I don't know if that would work. Also, snes9x runs are accepted as long as they are on v1.51+. Deprecation != rejection
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Amaraticando
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From lsnes IRC: (17:59:36) Amaraticando: Is it possible to plug/unplug controllers on the fly? (18:04:20) Ilari: Amaraticando: Nope. And considering the internal architecture, that would be hard without knowing what the controllers are beforehand. (18:04:35) Ilari: Amaraticando: What this kind of hot-plugging would be for? (18:05:13) Amaraticando: this guy said it can save time in the game he's playing http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17381 (18:07:09) Ilari: Well, that kind of thing wouldn't be major architecture hacking to support at least...
adelikat
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What ilari said is true, and equally true for bizhawk (when bizhawk eventually has multitap support it will have the same limitation) It wouldn't be feasible in snes9x either. To my knowledge, none of our emulators are capable of this.
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Thank you for all the responses so far Just to give you a quick example of what we use the multitap for in 1 player 2 controller speedruns: https://youtu.be/VrDkcPhHUWQ?t=43m33s - Talking to an NPC normally locks your character into place - But talking with the 3rd controller, then deactivating the multitap with the switch reassigns that character to be AI controlled and I can just walk during the cutscene and mash through the textbox with L/R Just to make sure you guys understand what I mean: It's not technically unplugging the 3rd controller. Unplugging does not do anything. It's specifically deactivating the multitap-switch on the device that forces this reaction. What I -think- it does is, it sends the SNES a signal that says, that more than just one controller is going to be connected. Specifically that signal is activated/deactivated when I flip the switch on that device. This prompts the game to check whether there is a 3rd controller active, and disables it if that's the case. You can actually test this behavior on SNES9x emulator. Set the: "Config -> Controls -> Use Super Multitap (5-player)" in the emulator. Get a 2nd character in the game and press START on the 3rd controller (a small [3] will show up on the characters portrait). Then you just go into the SNES9X menu and set "Config -> Controls -> Use SNES joypad(s)". The 2nd character will instantly be back in AI control. Note, the little [3] in the character portrait will only disappear on screen change
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Does the multitap actually have a switch on it for control? I don't remember this, maybe my memory is flawed... If so, then yes, it shouldn't be an impossible change, and I will need to update my playback device to have any hope of replaying an SoM movie. If not, is it considered valid user input to unplug and replug controllers? Particularly, in mtap case, for fastest playback this would probably imply unplugging mtap and instantly plugging in a controller. I'm not sure that is a valid input case, at least as far as TAS is concerned. (Are we TASing the game, or the emulator? What I mean is, if an instant swap could not be reproduced, then would it be valid? I would say no...)
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creaothceann
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True wrote:
is it considered valid user input to unplug and replug controllers? Particularly, in mtap case, for fastest playback this would probably imply unplugging mtap and instantly plugging in a controller. I'm not sure that is a valid input case, at least as far as TAS is concerned. (Are we TASing the game, or the emulator? What I mean is, if an instant swap could not be reproduced, then would it be valid? I would say no...)
We're TASing the game, not the emulator or the hardware. If a controller can be unplugged and replugged, it's going to be instant because we're inhumanely fast gods.
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Does the multitap actually have a switch on it for control? I don't remember this, maybe my memory is flawed...
Yes, as mentioned earlier - There is a switch that you can flip in order to switch between 2-controller and multicontroller handling. No physical unplugging and replugging is required. You literally just flip the switch :)
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Any progress on this? Would be really cool to have a new Secret of Mana TAS...
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I have added something like this to bizhawk. The controllers don't unplug, but it should behave as if the switch on the multitap was pressed. I did some cursory testing in Secret of Mana and it seemed to work; even though P3 is still connected, I can't assume direct control with P3 when the switch is off.