Posts for Zekna


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Randil wrote:
That is awesome. I feel like this could probably be used for a similar "teleport to last room" trick as in Shadowgate.
This is certainly the trick I'm hoping for! I've tested some values in rooms just around the gun shop without any luck so far, but it's something I'm not going to give up on.
Randil wrote:
If you can't find any such trick, the thing that comes to my mind would be to simply set the necessary flags for beating the game through this trick (by picking up items that set specific bits a la Shadowgate style) instead of actually doing anything, and then maybe even teleport to the police station (if that is faster than actually going there, I'm not sure).
This is something I'll experiment with, but unfortunately I'm not sure setting specific bits in memory is going to be possible with this glitch, at least not in its current form. If you pick up additional items past the newspaper, it gets added to the address page (because the max page is 0 again) and your inventory scrolls there. I also don't think it's possible to underflow the max page much further -- I remember crashes after leaving enough bullets, but I could be wrong here. This gives us a pretty limited range of memory to set, and I'm also not sure it will let you put any item past page 0C... still need to investigate that. So far it seems like this isn't as useful as Shadowgate's overflow because at the moment it only seems to give us the ability to execute RAM values as an action. It also seems like using arbitrary values is safer in this game -- a lot values result in "You can't __ it!" or similar, while those messages were fairly rare in Shadowgate. The one advantage it has is that we have access to a lot more of RAM than we did in Shadowgate.
Randil wrote:
Keep me updated and let me know if you need something from me! I still keep my old Excel sheet with notes and some RAM address info.
Seems like I'm always needing help from you orz Any RAM address info would be invaluable, and honestly even general game knowledge like a map or checklist would be useful, if you have it. If not that's definitely something I can find myself!
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I have a new glitch for this game that I've been sitting on for a while -- found it maybe 4 months ago! Kept meaning to work on it and share, but it just didn't happen. To the good stuff: I've found a way to access arbitrary memory using the inventory and the bullet glitch, Shadowgate style. Movie for the setup here:http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/479235046/deja%20vu%20page%20overflow%20setup%20desync%20fix.fm2 (I had some issues with this input desyncing, let me know if it gives anyone trouble.) Important memory values as you watch are 0x0516 and 0x0517, which are the current inventory page and maximum inventory page number respectively. The route is simply: go immediately to the gun shop, and leave bullets until you move all items entirely out of your inventory. Note that as the items move backwards through your inventory, the max page number decrements from 02 to 00. (02 is the first page for items, as 00 is the address page and 01 is the page for the last opened container). Once the bullet 1 leaves the address page, we leave one more bullet, and the max page number underflows to FF. Then we move and pick up the newspaper. Because the max page is now FF, the inventory scrolls to where page FF would be (way past the intended end of the inventory) and adds the newspaper. From here we can interact with arbitrary memory. Notes: - After we pick up the newspaper, the max page overflows back to 0. This means we can no longer turn pages to the right in the inventory since we're past the maximum page, but we can scroll left as much as we want to. - I tried this with another item and it didn't work, but instead only scrolled me to page 0C, about one page past intended end of inventory. The newspaper itself scrolls to 0C, pauses, then scrolls to FF. I don't know if the newspaper is unique in this regard or what's unique about page 0C. I haven't been able to do anything useful with this, but it does open up possibilities. I've recreated a lot of Shadowgate-style crashes by interacting with arbitrary memory, e.g. crashing with glitched sprites, unending event chains, intro text on a loop, etc. I hope to post a video of some of these later!
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zaphod77 wrote:
great job, and something that could be done real time i think?
Thanks! And yes, nothing in the run requires frame precision and the end skip is completely consistent, so an RTA or similar could follow this exact route.
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Really great TAS, absolutely loved the clips. The art in this is really nice -- I thought it was a pleasure to watch!
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mklip2001 wrote:
Wow. That's pretty nuts. Great job! Would the death abuse also speed up a run without large skips? It amazes me that death could possibly save time in this game :)
Thank you! On a glitchless run, the death abuse there won't save time, because you need to go to the area where the cloak is for several other things required to beat the game. So just picking it up on your way is faster than killing yourself. In a run where you're still using the glasses glitch but no large skips, the death could speed it up if you create the other items that're nearby the cloak via the glasses glitch, and then skip the whole section altogether.
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I made a quick encode for viewing convenience: Link to video And thank you Randil! I was definitely planning to at least look into the bullet underflow glitch, so I may be messaging you asking for details sometime soon :)
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Thanks! I think I'm in agreement here. I've just finished testing the rest of the invalid values in the red carpet hallway and the grand hall (gist has again been updated). No other setup I know of now is faster than the one I do in that last movie. My inventory management feels solid -- it's one of those things that's hard to really know though. Overall, I don't see any other improvements, so I think I'm going to submit the last movie I shared. Any other suggestions on things to experiment with or to try and improve are welcome!
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Thank you! ^^ I've been a bit slow, but I do plan to keep at it. Tested more values and found that $C5, $C7, $C9, and $CE all also result in the ending skip, once again in the same conditions. It seems that only invalid trashcan objects will lead to this particular skip -- and somehow, fairly consistently. I tested all spell values as well, with nothing of note -- updated the gist from earlier with details. Also, the new skip values have been put to good use, and I have a new movie 185 frames faster than the previous. fm2 can be found here: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1589758643/zekna_randil_shadowgate_v5.fm2 The old lab setup and route to the acid fountain are abandoned in favor of raising the bucket in the courtyard to make $DD in $04E4, which is used to skip to the end. As a side note, I have been using the tas editor/fm3 format to make this. They've been a pain to upload through the usual means, so I've been exporting to fm2. If anyone wants the actual fm3 file please let me know! I'm happy to provide it, and intend to submit using fm3. And, as always, please take a look. Any feedback is very welcome.
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Quick post to say I am still working on this, and some progress updates. I've been testing all possible values for the item display flags on the current route. Possibilities in rooms before the courtyard are slim, because the rooms have to be in a certain state to proceed past the mirror/fire drake/troll bridge rooms. Once we get to the red carpet hallway, we don't need to make any game progress, so we can make quite a few possible values (probably 300-400 total between just the library and laboratory state addresses, $04E4 and $04E5). If you're interested in the details of my testing so far, please check out this: https://gist.github.com/zekna/e725f688baf5d5423ccb. The most important takeaway is that the following values will also result in an end skip in the same situations that using $D2 would: $D0, $D7, $D9, $DD, $DE. Some of the setups for these seem like they would be faster than the current route, so I'll be testing these routes soon!
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Thanks HHS, that makes a lot of sense. Changing route to the acid fountain room at the end is 103 frames faster than the grand hall route. Most recent WIP movie is here: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1564875220/zekna_randil_shadowgate_v4.fm2. I've also tested all the EI values in the current run in all the rooms around the red carpet hallway, and it seems that the current acid fountain room setup is the fastest out of all these values. All values were tested with every verb. Rooms tested: Red Carpet Hallway ($14) Library ($15) Lab ($17) Courtyard ($13) Acid Fountain Room ($18)* Grand Hall($1A)* Values tested: $76 $8D $79 $FF $73 $DC $D2 $F3* $BA* $95 Starred values weren't necessarily tested in starred rooms, as they'd most likely be slower than the current setup. There's not many more values possible on the current route -- maybe 20 or so, and not all are meaningful to test. Getting close to being decently sure that this is the fastest end skip setup. Been collecting footage of some interesting glitches I see while testing -- I uploaded one here, which shows that LEAVEing $8D without crashing altered the event that happened when LEAVEing $44, though there is something wrong with this Key 4, since looking at it always results in "It's a beautifully woven rug." I may post a compilation of things like this, if anyone is interested.
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Short update: Tested some more values for the $D2 skip using HHS' info. The skip is doable from the acid fountain room past the lab, which I think will be faster than the current route since it avoids backtracking out of the lab and the door opening animation. I can just do the inventory overflow, go to the lab and grab the horseshoe, then go to the fountain room and win. Also, Randil has pointed out to me a way to get $D2 on the first EI page, via items in the dragon room, so I'm going to check if that's faster as well. @HHS, I did notice that screens 72 and 73 are the hallway where we are doing the glasses overflow, and were included in your list of screens with $55 in the first row. The actual RAM values for these screens are, starting at $309: $00, $55, $00. However, the skip doesn't actually work here, which I'm wondering about. I get instead "This stone is almost perfectly round", followed by "The troll says the toll has been raised[...]." Screen 7 does work exactly as you're saying, displaying the riddle and then the ending. Seems like there's something off about command $00 -- my guess would be that whatever it calls jumps somewhere. Do you have any info on this?
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Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification!
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After testing, I found that taking another stone from the waterfall room is 7 frames faster than taking the sword. I also overestimated how much time could be saved by taking the extra item. Fastest movie I have to date can be found here: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/412721207/zekna_randil_shadowgate_v3.fm2. It's 40 frames faster than the previous, due to the extra stone and some other small time savers (fixed missing some frames in menus here and there). I was actually able to reproduce an end skip using a different value than $D2. I found that value $8D ended up executing commands from some values that changed over time, so hitting the action on different frames produced different results. In the laboratory I was able to skip to the end event by using $8D on a particular frame. While skipping the horseshoe and going to the lab after the overflow is definitely a faster setup, the actual skip had worse slowdown than my original wraith room skip, making it slower by far. It also seems like the frame I need to wait for may not come very quickly -- after entering the laboratory, I couldn't get the skip within several hundred frames, making the setup about the same speed anyways. USE-ing $8D gives consistent values most of the time, which vary between a couple different values. I think it may be sprite or audio data from RAM that's being executed as a command, but I haven't double checked. I'm still looking at testing other values that could potentially produce an end skip. If nothing else is found, then the above movie feels pretty close to the end product to me. Please, everyone feel free to give any suggestions you may have to improve it!
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If you're executing from RAM, some commands might result in a change to the very RAM addresses that you are executing from. One might also need to take jumps into account.
Ah, you're completely right. If it's a string of commands that finishes with the ending it gets much more complicated. Probably a lot easier to make a script that just finds invalid values that we can create that are faster (there aren't many) and test each manually.
It looks up all this as soon as you have selected the object that you want to act on, and then it starts executing commands until it reaches $ff.
So, the script pointers for each action point to a null-terminated list? That would explain the very prevalent "infinite" event loops when doing actions on invalid values.
it turns out that $0300-$037F holds the tile attribute table. So $0309-$30b holds attributes for the tiles at the top of the room.
This is incredibly illuminating, thank you. The fact that the end skip is room-specific is nicely explained, and why we get different events in different rooms for other invalid values.
Here is the full list of such rooms:
A bit confused by the numbering here. I thought rooms north of the tome room were 10 and 4, while it itself was 2. I also don't see 26 in the list (the grand hall), which is where we're currently doing the skip from. I'm going by the value in RAM at $500 and the room dump you did earlier. A list of rooms like this really is helpful though. I don't think it rules out rooms entirely, as there's the possibility of reading from a different location in RAM still (I think), but this lets us rule out rooms that the current skip and similar values can be used in. I'm struck by the fact that most of the invalid values I took actions on varied in their effect by room, with the exception of a few. Ones that didn't vary mostly didn't result in actual events, but rather crashes, cursor resets, and other things. Might mean jumping from RAM other than the attribute table or nearby isn't likely. The attribute table is certainly convenient, since it contains a decent number of values that are valid script commands!
For the record, bank 0 has data for rooms 0-75 and bank 1 has data for rooms 76-131. They both have a pointer table at the beginning pointing to the rooms. At offset $c4 within each room is the tile attribute data (16 bytes).
Thank you very much! ^^ I think it may be time for me to get my hands dirty and dive into some of the ROM.
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HHS, thank you so much! This is exactly the type of information I was looking for. With this I can be sure about the existence of faster setups, and it opens up the possibilty of writing a script to check setup values instead of manual testing. I'd love some more detail on this, if you have it. Let me go through the example to see if I understand the process: - player does USE on #$D2 - determine type and id: item type is Trash, id is #$12 (#$D2 - #$C0, #$C0 being the first possible Trash-type id) - get Trash table address from main type table - reading offset #$12 from Trash table as an address gives $dfc7 (not a valid verb table address? -- I assume it breaks here because this is the invalid code) - address $dfc7, when interpreted as a list of addresses for commands, gives $3e00, $08ff, $0309, $e003. This is random memory interpreted as a table of addresses. - address $0309 corresponds to the address for USE offset, so we load an offset/address - address $0309 houses command $55, the ending event. I assume the exception table is checked at some point, but I'm also assuming that invalid item values aren't listed in the exception table.
HHS wrote:
Command $55 will invoke the ending.
A bit confused here; I'm assuming $55 is an offset into a scripting command table. Does the verb table's end address contain a value to be used as an offset into this table? Or does it simply contain an address to jump to, and $55 is an offset/designation seperate from the actual call? To write a script to calculate the resulting command value from an item code, I assume I would do the following: - determine type/ id, where id is equal to the difference between the current value and the first value of the same type. - use the type as an offset into the main table and read the base address for the type table - use the item id as an offset into the type table and read the base address for the verb table there - use the current action as an offset into the verb table, and read value for the command to execute - compare value to $55 questions: - actual values for action offsets? My guess is that entries in tables of addresses are 2 bytes, and that they'd be sequential for some order ([LOOK=0, OPEN=2, USE=4, LEAVE=6, TAKE=8, CLOSE=10, HIT=12, SPEAK=14, MOVE=16]?) Doing all for each type seems like a waste though -- perhaps they order based on only the specific type list only? - to be sure, no table is jumped to until the command value is loaded? It just loads values from the tables?
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Yes! Apologies for the lack of updates. I decided I wasn't really going to be satisfied until I've tested all possible blank EI values that are faster to hit than the current one, to be sure none of them result in an end skip. It's unlikely that one will result in a faster skip, but I want to be sure. Basically I plan to figure out all possible values for the first and second pages of EI that are manipulable on the route -- some of the second page requires going too far to be worth it, and some of the first page is related to the wraith/rope/wizard rooms. Then test all first page values in every room one off from the hallway, and second page values in the hallway. Basically, test anything that would be faster than the current setup. There isn't a lot of manipulation possible for these values -- some of the rooms have to end in a certain state, and some you must take something (stone room) or can't take more than one extra item (dragon room). I'm hoping to get through the rest of these this weekend. As for smaller improvements, I saved 4 frames because I didn't realize you could skip the text after defeating the behemoth on the first possible input frame. Normally this is only true of "continuing" text, which this didn't strike me as. I'm also fairly sure that I can save about 60 frames by taking the sword in the closet. This will take at worst 32 more frames, and will also: - not have a natural page turn in the dragon room, potentially saving lag frames, saving ~1-3 frames - remove the need to page turn in the lake room, saving ~65 frames - require taking one fewer pair of glasses, saving ~30 frames This will move the torch during the glasses overflow to a less desirable spot in the inventory list, but I'm fairly certain I can keep it where it is if I just take and light the torch one action early. Hoping to finish all this up this weekend.
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Randil wrote:
Nice job! The spear suicide was hilarious. :)
Thanks! I'm hoping that part can serve as some entertainment ^^ I remember that you said previously in this thread that using it was the fastest way to do that -- pretty sure I facepalmed when I read it since I hadn't thought of it at all.
Randil wrote:
The menu movement seemed very good as well (I watched parts of the new content in frame advance). I'm afraid I don't have much to contribute other than my awe of the fact this game can be broken this much!
Thank you so much for taking the time to look at it. I'm glad to hear it looks good! And really, I think everyone (myself included) is in awe at how broken this is now.
d-feather wrote:
You actually surprised me there with an improvement that large. The ending had me scream "WHAT?!" as well.
Thank you! I'm glad to hear it was entertaining, even after skipping all the interesting item creation/memory manipulation the previous run did. And of course, thanks for taking the time to watch it!
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I've completed an attempt that I think is fairly solid -- movie is here: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/212494539/zekna_randil_shadowgate_v2.fm2. Total frame count is 15812, time around 4 minutes 24 seconds. I re-used Randil's input as much as possible, and used it in whole up until the waterfall room. I also use Jiseed's glitch setup. The only routing choice I make is to pick up an extra stone in the waterfall room -- this saves 2 page turns in either the mirror room or the drake room/bridge (depending on whether you use the stone on the sling in the sphere room or not), and also saves about 40 frames at the glasses section. There's one less pair of glasses to take, and having the torch be at the very bottom of the menu saved some movements as well. I did a full playthrough without taking the stone -- taking the stone turned out to be 50 frames faster. This is my first full, official TAS attempt, so any and all feedback is very appreciated!
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Mr. Kelly R. Flewin wrote:
Jiseed [www.twitch.tv/jiseed], is at time of this post, currently doing End of Game glitch attempts and he actually proved my curiousity accurate. Literally does the Glasses glitch in the hallway and then moves forward one room, "USE" and poof! Game end! AND!!! It went wayyyyyy faster than the super slowdown of your version. With this, he's currently sitting at a PB of 5m52s.
Wow, just wow. Extremely timely too! Thanks so much for posting this and to Jiseed for finding the better setup. I was just in the middle of debugging, but that's going pretty slowly, so I think I'm just going to finish up the movie with the setup Jiseed is using. 2 rooms off library is almost as fast as possible -- the fastest possible being in the hallway itself (unless the hallway itself also has the massive lag, but...). I think I should have the movie finished up end of this week at the latest! Thank you again for the heads up.
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Amazing! Please keep us posted on your future progress! I will take a closer look at your movie file in the near future and post any relevant thoughts I have about it.
Thank you! I definitely will.
Yeah, Deja Vu has (as you say) this bullet overflow trick. I haven't been able to use it in the same way as the glasses trick in Deja Vu, but maybe you will have more luck. There is (as far as I know) no similiar trick for Uninvited (if there is, let me know :) )
Ah, well, it may look grim then. I remember seeing the bullet trick a few years back and thinking it wasn't as interesting/powerful as the glasses, but when I said I haven't looked at them I really mean it haha. Some thoughts on where I'm going with this for now: I want to do some work around trying to find a faster setup than backtracking to the wraith room. I remember that while messing around with invalid item values, I got to the exact same chain of events by using different values with USE and LOOK. I believe the values I used were USE with $D4 and LOOK with $73, but that could be wrong -- need to double check my notes. (In particular, I think $73 is the globe, but I've also seen codes that had the display name of an item, but jumped to random memory when used, so it's unclear whether that's an issue.) What getting the same events suggest to me is -- using these two different values jumped to the same location in memory. If the different actions use static offsets (amount it jumps doesn't change by room or other variables) then it's possible that we could LOOK at a $71 from the wraith room and also jump to the end event. Overall I think it means we're not constrained by what action we're using, we can still jump to the same location. Actions meant to be used directly on scenery (in particular, OPEN and CLOSE) seem to be a bit harder to use, because they'll return "It won't open!" or similar for some out-of-range values, but it's possible to sometimes use them. There's a couple constraints that may apply, I think: - if the start of where the action looks is too far away from the ending event, we may not be able to produce a large enough value to complete the jump. - if a particular action in a particular room starts looking in a location past where the end event is triggered, we won't be able to go backwards to hit it. Judging by HHS' dumps, it seems like there are quite a few rooms where actions start past the address that the ending triggers at, but I'm not really sure yet. Overall I think there's enough options that there's no real choice but to analyze the actual routines for calling actions. Later tonight I'll probably start on debugging these calls. If anyone has any memory/RAM values that have to do with the current selected action, those would be really helpful!
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Mr. Kelly R. Flewin wrote:
Zekna wrote:
I made an encode here. Essentially what I do is set address 04E5 (page 2, slot 3 of EI) to value $D2, by taking the horseshoe and nothing else from the lab. By USE-ing $D2 from the wraith room, it jumps straight to the end event where you defeat the behemoth. Just as Randil predicted, it's an improvement about understanding the unknown codes in EI better and how the game handles them.
So, you literally require enough items so that when you go into the Lab, the Horseshoe will drop into Page 2, Slot 3.... and then you keep "TAKEing" Glasses in the Wraith room until it shows the screen with Globe, then push it to the next page, use option 3 and BOOM, game complete?
I worded it a bit badly there -- by page 2, slot 3, I meant page 2 slot 3 PAST the end of the actual inventory. Basically, the slot I use at the very end is the same data that the game uses to determine what items are present in the lab, so by taking the horseshoe I change it to the value I need. But you've got the gist -- put the magic value in the right place, use it, and boom, game complete ^^
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin wrote:
I wonder what other rooms will be able to trigger this, in case going forward a bit more may unveil a slightly faster room. I'd hate to think a few more options and a few rooms forward may yield a slightly faster result than all that backtracking.
That's part of what I'm looking to test before submitting this -- right now the $D2 value is specific to the wraith room, but I do think it should be possible to use other values from other rooms. The question is if we can get those values into memory where the inventory overflow can reach.
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin wrote:
But regardless, this is an absolutely PHENOMENAL find and makes me wonder if this will be possible in Deja Vu and Uninvited?
Thanks! I haven't really looked at either Deja Vu or Uninvited, but I know that there's the bullet overflow glitch in Deja Vu, and I think Uninvited has something similar? It may be possible!
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Apologies in advance for a bit of a long post here. Quite a long time ago I was playing around with the glasses glitch with the intent of doing a speedrun -- I thought that I could jump to the end of the game using the inventory overflow. Much to my surprise, I succeeded! It was really a stroke of pure luck that I found this by pure experimentation, without tools, and before I gave up. However, the lack of tools made me unable to reproduce it, so I abandoned it for a while. SGDQ pushed me to get into TASing for the first time, and after a week and a half or so of work, I'm happy to present a working example of this skip. I've uploaded the movie here, and I made an encode here. Forgive the disgustingly unoptimized menus/everything throughout. Essentially what I do is set address 04E5 (page 2, slot 3 of EI) to value $D2, by taking the horseshoe and nothing else from the lab. By USE-ing $D2 from the wraith room, it jumps straight to the end event where you defeat the behemoth. Just as Randil predicted, it's an improvement about understanding the unknown codes in EI better and how the game handles them. I haven't taken a lot of time to really understand why this works, but my suspicion is that it works like so: - USE routine does a calculation that directly involves the item and room values to figure out what address to jump to for the resulting actions (by "directly involved" I mean that the value is explicitly used, such as in a jump table, rather than an explicit case-by-case check). - By giving the routine calculating the address a value different than any expected item, the resulting address jumps into random memory. (As noted by Randil before, jumping to random memory is pretty unstable and usually useless. For most values, this ends in graphical glitchs, hangs/freezes, opening text repeatedly, infinite chains of events that don't end, etc. I assume this is because it jumps into data display routines without commands to check/end/return.) - In this case, $D2 from the wraith room is the exact (or near-exact) value needed to successfully jump to the ending trigger in memory. After looking through HHS' dumps (which are extremely helpful, thank you for those), it seems like the address that triggers the ending is A90E, though skipping to A909, A90B, or somewhere in that range may result in the ending event as well. This movie is meant to just be a proof of concept -- after taking the time to read this thread and watch the current submission, I see that my menus are incredibly lacking! I was completely unaware you could do default actions with no action selected, move the cursor diagonally, or wrap the cursor to the top from the bottom. I also had no idea some rooms didn't decrease the torch counters -- I had those values watched but didn't pay much attention to them. The book room in particular is important! Many thanks to everyone who helped in this thread and Randil for his previous TASes. Had no idea this game was getting so much love! I hope to re-do and submit this movie using the previously found optimizations/tricks and potentially input, but I think there's the possibility of an even faster setup here -- some value to use to jump from the library area would be ideal. After redoing the movie, next step for me would probably be looking at the action subroutines in depth. All comments and any possible improvements are very welcome!