Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 28
Location: In front of my computer, where do you think?
I still have everything saved on my computer, which is a good thing. It's been a good 20 months since I have touched anything though, thanks to the fact that I now work among other things.
Anyway, I was thinking about this game the other day and I remembered that I started this time attack and never finished it. So, I'm going to start this back up again. I'll update this thread every few weeks on my progress. Thanks for your patience.
Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 28
Location: In front of my computer, where do you think?
I've cleared the final elevator before the end of the first building. First boss has been defeated. I'm 7,043 frames faster than my previous run.
Here are some additional statistics:
3,797 frames faster on 1st floor
2,855 frames faster on 2nd & 3rd floors combined
34 frames faster in horizontal battle section
143 frames faster on boss (revised my technique .. do not switch weapons, kill all 5 with 15 grenades)
232 frames faster getting out of boss room due to repositioning
-21 frames on room after boss (no silencer, had to punch and avoid, resulting in 21 frames lost)
3 frames faster on elevator shaft
The rest of the level ...
From what I can tell it took 1,235 frames to switch to plastic explosives, set 6 bombs, and get through the next door after the final elevator shaft. That's far too slow so I experimented with a few things and found a quicker way. It should be about 300 frames faster, at least, but I haven't been able to time it yet.
I will lose some addtional frames on the screen before stepping onto the boat because i do not have the silencer and firing a shot is not something i can do without setting off an alarm. All total I expect this run should take approximately 24,000 frames as opposed to my original tally of 31,397.
That works out to a gain of 7,397 frames.
Approximately 2 minutes.
6:45 total. Not bad, eh?
As far as the game goes after this point, I suspect the ship level will go very quickly. A few minutes total.
I have not played the levels after this point in many years (about 15!!) so they will require research and planning before attempting.
Anyway, once the first building is complete I will post a video so you can check it out.
Edit: Oh and some kill statistics for you -- I've punched to death one guard (unavoidable without taking a major frame penalty). Four have been knifed in the horizontal section (unavoidable). 5 enemies killed as the boss. 15 grenades used. 0 bullets fired. That should be my total after clearing the building.
Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 28
Location: In front of my computer, where do you think?
I've redone building #1's first floor.
A rough estimate as to how much faster this run is: (fr stands for frame(s) ..)
previous run: 15,087fr @ inside 1st floor elevator
current run: 11,290fr @ inside 1st floor elevator
Which results in a 3,797fr improvement or 63 seconds.
Improvements:
*Found a way to get off the first floor killing only one guard. Killing this guard (I didn't kill him last time through) resulted in a 20fr or so gain! It's not actually faster to kill enemies but it prevents having to wait for the guards to line up in a certain way so you can run through. Bypassing this "dead time" is what saves time.
*No truth gas or silencer pickups (about 2,000fr saved here)
*No shots fired. Seeing i won't have the silencer the pistol will only be used on bosses.
*Avoided a few punch-to-death sequences on guards that resulted in 10 to 20 frame improvements on each. (150fr or so total)
*Cleaned up item pickup screens with a trick i learned (assign A-button to spacebar and do frame-by-frame advance). (12fr) It's almost a glitch actually -- the pop-up menu now disappears at least 2 frames before it had in the past ..
*Saved an extra prisoner on 1st floor, eliminating the need for truth gas and going south when first entering 2nd floor. I can now go SW. (will knock off at least 1,000fr not having to go out of my way to the officer's room and using truth gas on him along with switching to the item screen, etc)
*I'll be skipping oxygen tanks completely. Breathing underwater doesn't harm Snake enough that it will kill him before I make it through. (should knock off another 700fr here)
The above tally, along with a few additional frame saving moves, should put me at about a 6,000fr improvement. That works out to a first building and forest elapsed time of under 7 minutes. Much better...and something I will be satisfied moving forward with
Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 28
Location: In front of my computer, where do you think?
Thanks for the reply
/*- wrote:
looks nice for the objective. im quite interested to see the next route. i do have a few questions though
-do you lose any frames wobbling on the elevator or does it take that long to get on/off?
No frames are lost. The elevator smashes down into the ground and there is a 10-12 frame delay afterwards. I'm just wasting the time by having Snake wobble. I'd have him do push-ups but U and D do not work on the elevator.
/*- wrote:
-whats the point of truth gassing the guards?
Truth gassing a guard is the same as rescuing a prisoner. 4 rescues = level up (or in this case rank up) which allows you to hold more mines, missles, ammo, etc. If certain bosses didn't have requirements (big boss / cyborg form takes 40 mines) i wouldn't bother saving prisoners.
/*- wrote:
-the transciever trick to make things re-appear in the same room... is that possible?
I read about that but wasn't able to get it to work. Have you been able to? I would assume it's ... pick item up, go straight to the transceiver, back to the room, and the item(s) are there ?
/*- wrote:
-at the end of the first area, before the 5 bosses, can you jump and then knife the guards? its just that you lose time standing in place and i could've sworn you jumped and slashes earlier.
Most of those guard kills were done barely in the amount of time possible. Like a frame before they turn around. I think there is a slight delay when jumping, which would cause an alert on the guards. The delay on knifing vs. jumping and knifing is shorter. I'll confirm that and let you know, though.
/*- wrote:
-have you found a use for U+D and L+R yet?
Can you explain this to me? I have blip's version, but the U&D L&R trick doesn't appear to work, assuming i'm doing it correctly. My guess was you're to map the L command to the same command as R, and then press the R to perform both commands at the same time. If that's the case then no, it does not work.
Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 28
Location: In front of my computer, where do you think?
dubitancy wrote:
Video will be posted in the next few days.
It hasn't been posted yet because I started over again! I found a quicker path to take. Also, I am going to try making it through the underground section of Building #1 using just one oxygen tank. After finishing the ship level your life is replenished, so that will work out nicely. One bar of life is lost for getting an oxygen tank, and approximately 4 to 5 bars lost underwater after the oxygen tank runs out.
8 bars of life total - 5 to 6 in damage = 2 or so which is plenty enough to make it through the ship level seeing it can be finished without losing any energy.
Anyway, if you would like to see what my other video looked like, here it is:
ROM: Snake's Revenge (U).nes
Uses: blip's FCEU
Time: 8:43
Frames: 31,397
Undo count: 1,609
Ends at: Ship (Area #2)
Link to FCM: http://home.ripway.com/2005-6/321068/dubitancy-MG2(SR).zip
I expect the next video will be in the 7 minute range to the exact same point.
Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 28
Location: In front of my computer, where do you think?
Zero Alerts
Minimal kills
Zero damage taken from enemies (bosses included)
Lowest ranking possible (minimal hostages saved, officers truth gased)
The above is what I am attempting with my run. Zero damage taken had to be amended a little because there are certain situations in the game where you must take damage (gas filled room with oxygen tanks...if you skip the tanks and gas damage you take damage attempting to swim underwater without the oxygen tanks. This section is unavoidable if you are looking to finish the level)
Anyway, 28,646 frames and i'm done with the first boss and out of the door towards the exit to building #1. 7minutes 57seconds have elapsed and an undo count of 1,464. I redid the boss battle (found a much faster way to kill them off) and knocked almost 30 (!) seconds off my time. I estimate about 100 hours have gone into the first level so far with about 2,000 frames left before i reach the boat. My estimate is that this run will clock in around 80 minutes, give or take.
I am attempting to finish the game on a three star ranking. This depends solely on how many mines you can collect. I need to have 40 mines to kill the Cyborg at the end of the game before fighting Metal Gear. This is my benchmark. Seeing I am taking next to nothing in damage throughout this run (partly because I believe running through enemies and tripping alarms would be senseless in a game like this) the only reason I will need to be at a higher rank is so that I have enough mines.
With my run I am trying to keep a creative balance between an artistic looking video (read: interesting enough to keep you awake) and a speedrun. In several cases I will not take the quickest route because it involves killing more enemies.
Like I said, when possible i have avoided killing enemies in the interest of stealth. 'Punch>Stun>Run Through' and 'Punch>Stun>Avoid' are two of my favorite tricks. These usually involve some sort of manipulation of luck so that the enemies do something strange. (Face in the direction I just ran through as if to say, what the $@!!@$ was that? Etc..)
That's all for now. I'm exhausted so it's time for bed. Video will be posted in the next few days.
[Edited by Bisqwit: Made the font less disturbing]
Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 28
Location: In front of my computer, where do you think?
suraimu wrote:
Great icon, dubitancy. :)
Hey, thanks
BTW -- With the 1up..1up..1up missing from your icon it looks as if he's humping a corpse. haha
Oh and the pause trick doesn't work on gas. I just tried it :(
Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 28
Location: In front of my computer, where do you think?
Ferret Warlord wrote:
The first run employed a pause glitch to avoid taking damage. Is there a similar deal in this one, maybe?
I'm not aware of any such glitch. Any details / links you can provide?
Edit: Unless you're speaking of Metal Gear.. The only glitch i know of in Snake's Revenge is the following taken from David Wonn's site:
Snake's Revenge
Weird Glitch
sent in by Cactuar
When you are on top of the trolleys in the Green Base area, and have just gotten past a 2D fighting part, hold the down button on the D-Pad before it shifts back to overhead mode. If you did it correctly, you'll warp back to the Green Base for some odd reason, the bad part is that you're stuck! If you try to take the elevator back up, you'll see that the room is all glitched up, so you won't be able to progress any further, bummer.
Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 28
Location: In front of my computer, where do you think?
well, i started over.. i'm at 1min 56sec and 6978 frames after the forest. the run through the trees is much better than my previous run and a lot more interesting. i reluctantly saved two prisoners which resulted in the extra 32 sec (at least) over my previous run.
saving two prisoners in building one should get me to 2nd rank. [2 rations, 15 grenades, 10 plastique, 2 oxygen tanks, etc.] i believe rations must be picked up because there are rooms with gas and i believe sections later in the game where you must take mine hits. too much damage from mines will result in an easy death.
also, to pick up an oxygen tank (or two) on floor #2 of building one results in damage. an oxygen tank is required to make it under the mines in the first side-scrolling section. apx 3 bars of health (if i'm quick) are lost getting the two tanks from this room.
in addition, although i am going to try my best not to, there are some boss battles that are difficult to avoid getting hit. finishing the game without setting off an alarm might be a more realistic goal and it is the one that i am going to try to get.
1) Avoid taking damage as much as possible
2) Manipulate luck when killing enemies for ammo and rations
3) Use fists whenever possible. or silenced gun in rare instances for speed related purposes I will be backtracking to get the silencer once i get card #1 because shooting certain enemies will result in a HUGE time saver. ~10 to 15 sec in some places.
4) Take no damage from guards or enemies except bosses. (Going to try avoiding boss damage as well but it might be impossible)
5) Minimal kills and no alerts.
6) Items will be picked up only when needed. I will try to not carry around a surplus of items and only get those necessary to finishing the game as quickly as possible.
..plus a few other surprises.
Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 28
Location: In front of my computer, where do you think?
#@$!!@$!@%. It just occurred to me that this isn't going to work -- not saving the prisoners. You need to be at a higher rank towards the end of the game to make it through an underwater part, among other things I am sure i have not recalled. I think you need about 3 or 4 oxygen tanks just to make it through that underwater part, or enough rations. But the thing is if you're at rank 1 you will never be able to hold enough rations to heal yourself and make it through, or tanks.
Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 28
Location: In front of my computer, where do you think?
An update on what i've done so far..
(I work full-time so this is going to take a while to complete and updates will be few and far apart)
I've got cards 1 & 2 already. Zero prisoners have been saved. I've elapsed 2:22. I'm approaching floor #2 of building 1. (It's about 3 screens away)
Issues discovered so far:
*Seeing this is my first run through MG2 and first time using FCEU, I had to work out a few issues but those have been straightened out. (Had a LOT of desync issues)
*Apparently this game has a sensitive combat engine. If you are standing too close to the enemy's line of site (ELOS from here on) -- a vertical or horizontal pixel row, the game will sometimes sync up the enemies facing a different way on playback. (I.E., straight at you, resulting in a completely different movie) This requires me to play through a bit, replay the entire video, and make sure there aren't any desyncs going on with regards to the ELOS. I've researched this issue quite a lot and the only way around it was the following. If you take one step further away from the ELOS it will trigger the enemy to face in a specific direction every single time. This will prevent the guards from doing random things such as alarm because they now see me, turning away (and walking) in a different direction, or longer than anticipated pauses, from occurring.
*It is possible to punch a guard and have him not notice you. Also, you can run through a guard when he is in this state. However, because of the desync issues I have not yet had a chance to research the possibility of using this technique.
*I might run into an issue from not saving prisoners as my rank will always be one star, and that might result in not enough ammo for certain bosses. Hopefully this is not the case...
Anyway, that's where I am. Thanks for reading.
Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 28
Location: In front of my computer, where do you think?
/*- wrote:
awesome. i cant wait to see this one.
I've got the forest finished. (woop-de-doo) 1:24 elapsed so far.
With my run I plan on doing several things:
1) Avoid taking damage.
2) Manipulate luck when killing enemies for ammo.
3) Use fists whenever possible. May have to scrap this technique for bosses (Nagmachon, for example, requires mines. Metal Gear requires 10 remote missles. Etc.)
4) Take no damage. Rations are obviously not needed in this run and will not be picked up.
5) Minimal items & kills possible.
6) Come as close to getting noticed as possible, with respect to not wasting time in doing so.
7) Finish with lowest ranking possible. I do not plan on saving prisoners if at all possible seeing they deserve to be kept if they were clumsy enough to get captured in the first place.
Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 28
Location: In front of my computer, where do you think?
YtterbiJum wrote:
TheAxeMan wrote:
I do seem to get the desync on world 3 airship.
I've tried 20+ times and it always desyncs there. Unless, of course, Genisto meant to die, use a star on the map screen, go in a pipe, and jump around till time runs out.
Joined: 3/8/2005
Posts: 28
Location: In front of my computer, where do you think?
What sort of controllers are you guys using for your runs?
A picture of and/or a link where you can buy the controller would help greatly as I need to buy one ASAP. I searched and couldn't find anything regarding what the general consensus is as far as the best controller to use with FCEU.
Thanks
