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So far people seem to like it, but there's only 3 votes. Should we perhaps ask in the discord server for more feedback?
Also thank you feos for spending so much time getting the movie to sync, I really appreciate it :)
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I figured out what was missing; apparently the global timer is saved in the save files and affects certain attack patterns, causing a desync if you happened to create the save files in the first room slower or faster than me. I also found another value (the Fun value) that needs to be changed in the save files in order to sync, which I forgot before when writing down how to make the save files. I wrote down the full instructions to make the save files here again, I hope they are complete this time :)
Enable debug mode (instructions can be found in Undertale's speedrun guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vSbtlfy6wLQxF_bkZD7hPXZCsnoq1KBPVsmaH3efIbTeBczo8fhZ5PD5Bfgd3w53QtnTG5OSmm1AwMr/pub#h.g7tnj6osgj3u).
Make sure the save file folder is empty, then name yourself any name and start a new game.
Once the first room loads, press S, then Z to create a fresh set of save files.
Open file0 in a text editor and change the following lines:
Line 1: Change from the name you used when creating the save file to
Line 13: Change from 0 to 26. This puts the Punch Card, which has item ID 26, into the first inventory slot.
Line 36: Change to 66. This sets the Fun value to 66, which allows getting into the Gaster Hallway in Waterfall. This value is assigned randomly at the start of the game and controls various secret events throughout the game.
Line 549 (should be the last line): Change to 32. This value is the global timer saved in the save file, and some attack patterns vary depending on the timer. When I created the save files when first making the TAS, I happened to take 32 frames between loading the first room and debug-saving the files; that's why this value is 32.
Finally, open undertale.ini and change the line that says fun="x.000000" to Fun="66.000000". It's important to both capitalize Fun and change the number to 66, otherwise it will not work.
I recommend backing up these modified save files to a different folder before running the TAS, since it will write to these save files too.
To run the movie, make sure debug mode is off, the noclip hotkey functionality is on (I tested changing the offset OceanBagel mentioned, it works), and make sure to not fast-forward through frame 72389.
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Ah I see what you mean, yes you need file9 and undertale.ini too. You need to create the save files in the game as described (which I think you already did), doing that creates file0, file9, and undertale.ini. Then you modify file0 only. Finally, copy all 3 files to the saves folder that the TAS reads from (~/.config/UNDERTALE), and the TAS should sync.
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feos wrote:
This patch modifies the game to allow pressing F10 to toggle noclip. This functionality is only used for a single frame of the TAS.
Does it exist in the game in any way and the patch just binds it to a hotkey, or is the entire noclip functionality added by the patch?
This functionality exists in the base game's "debug mode" in the form of the following code, which is executed every time F10 is pressed:
if (global.debug == true)
{
global.interact = 0
if (global.phasing == 0)
global.phasing = 1
else
global.phasing = 0
}
The patch removes the global.debug check, so that pressing F10 toggles global.phasing (noclip) even if debug mode is disabled.
To start with the correct save file, copy all the files from the "start_save_files" folder from the archive into /home/<Your Username>/.config/UNDERTALE.
What do those save files represent, and how were they created? Is it possible to recreate them in a way that the movie keeps syncing?
These save files are from the very first room of the game. They have a modified player name and the Punch Card in the first inventory slot, everything else is unmodified from the defaults. They can be created like this:
Enable debug mode (instructions can be found in Undertale's speedrun guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vSbtlfy6wLQxF_bkZD7hPXZCsnoq1KBPVsmaH3efIbTeBczo8fhZ5PD5Bfgd3w53QtnTG5OSmm1AwMr/pub#h.g7tnj6osgj3u).
Make sure the save file folder is empty, then name yourself any name and start a new game.
Once the first room loads, press S, then Z to create the save files.
Open file0 in a text editor and change the following lines:
Line 1: Change from the name you used when creating the save file to
Line 13: Change from 0 to 26. (This puts the Punch Card, which has item ID 26, into the first inventory slot.)
To verify that the save files are correct, start the game and load the save file. Press Control, then Enter, and check that the Punch Card is in the inventory and that the name shown in the menu is correct (or at least the beginning is, the name is so long that it goes off screen).
If you've run this movie past the first few hundred frames, you'll have to copy the files into /home/<Your Username>/.config/UNDERTALE again, every time.
Why? And how many frames in is enough?
After 300 frames, the save files are modified by initializing the first Flowey cutscene. If you run the movie with these new save files instead of the ones provided (or created with the process above), the movie will desync.
Also can you provide a movie with correct duration? It can be done by running the movie until the last frame where libTAS pauses, then advancing one frame and saving the movie.
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Alright, I think I figured out what the problem is. The tas does in fact desync on that commit. However, all you need to fix the issue is to replace the file that was changed in the commit (al.cpp) onto the original 1.4.1 release. Sorry for not mentioning that, I compiled that version of libtas with the audio patch quite a while ago and had forgotten about this lol
I assume this is because the same change that causes the tas to desync on 1.4.2 happened before the audio bug was fixed, and is thus in this commit as well and desyncs the TAS.
Here are the steps I took to make a version of libtas that this tas syncs on and has the audio patch:
Download the source code for 1.4.1 from the releases page
Download the file that was changed for the audio fix: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/clementgallet/libTAS/818b78dad5f335c85cd4011247609d8865117f51/src/library/audio/openal/al.cpp and replace 1.4.1's src/library/audio/openal/al.cpp with that file you downloaded
Build and install it like normal, there are instructions on the libtas github page (you probably need to build it with the dual-arch feature, since Undertale is a 32-bit game)
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feos wrote:
On Windows, install gamemaker studio 1.4.1567 with a license they don't give out anymore, although it's untested at the moment if 1.4 versions might still open with a gamemaker studio 2 license.
Then you can either create a game for Linux using that gamemaker version and take the runner file from the game you made, or you can find the runner at:
%appdata%\GameMaker-Studio\Linux\runner.zip
I can't give you exact answer because I don't have access to gamemaker studio myself, but i've asked colinator about this. He's probably asleep right now though so it might take some hours to get an answer lol. As I've said though, you apparently need that 1.4 licence you're talking about to open GM Studio, which yoyogames doesn't give out anymore.
feos wrote:
When using the runner from discord I get
./runner: error while loading shared libraries: libcrypto.so.1.0.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
even tho it's there in usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libcrypto.so.1.0.0
This means you're missing the dependency libssl1.0.0, which other versions of undertale need too iirc (specifically version 1.0.0). Install it with
sudo apt-get install libssl1.0.0:i386
. On newer linux distributions this package is no longer in the default repositories, but you should still be able to get it with the following steps:
Add
deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security jessie/updates main
to the end of your /etc/apt/sources.list file, which if you don't know how to add stuff, these commands should work:
sudo nano /etc/apt/sources.list
Navigate to the end of the file, then paste in
deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security jessie/updates main
on the last line (in the terminal you can paste with Ctrl+Shift+V)
Close and save the file with Ctrl+X, Y, Enter
Then run
sudo apt update
Finally install the libssl1.0.0 package like I said above. If you want, this is the command I had to use to install more dependencies on my linux system:
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Sorry about that, I had just copied the instructions from the submission text, which had a link to the file under the text "this file". I fixed that here https://tasvideos.org/UserFiles/Info/637787275127056453
(also added the instructions to get the runner file from original source in there)
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also colinator got me these instructions:
Install gamemaker studio 1.4.1567 with a license they don't give out anymore, although he's not sure if 1.4 versions might still open with a gamemaker studio 2 license.
Then you can either create a game for Linux using that gamemaker version and take the runner file from the game you made, or you can find the runner at:
%appdata%\GameMaker-Studio\Linux\runner.zip
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I'll go through each part of your post.
By fast-forwarding through the whole movie and looking at the "Current Time" field in libTAS, the final time ended up being 1:22:29.95. Probably a way to have the site automatically calculate this would be to count the normal frames in the inputs file and then add on the variable framerate frames. I'm not sure why the stored length is messed up like someone in the github issue mentioned. I checked a few of my other TASes and they seem to have similar way to high values for the stored length.
I'll contact the guy (colinator27) who provided the runner file and ask for exact steps on how to get it from an official version of GameMaker Studio and post that here (or perhaps he'll end up posting the steps here himself, idk).
It does not sync on libTAS 1.4.2 -- when I started the Neutral ending Z Button Challenge TAS (which this one was based off of), 1.4.1 was still the most recent version. It syncs for me on the official 1.4.1 build. The only reason I didn't encode it on the official build was because it has an audio pitch bug.
I used variable framerate to be able to input two seperate arrow key inputs on consecutive frames and to be able to do inputs on the first frame of a room. If you just stay on 30fps and put two arrow key inputs on consecutive frames, the game will interpret them as one arrow key input held out for two frames. By switching to 60fps, you can press the arrow key for half a frame, release it for half a frame, and then press it on the next frame, which the game will interpret as two seperate arrow key presses. About the first frame of a room thing: to input on the first frame of a room, you need to be pressing the key one and a half frames before the new room is visible (for some reason that I don't really understand lol). Due to requiring half frames again, I use 60fps there too.
It's possible to avoid using variable framerate by just doing the whole TAS on 60fps, like OceanBagel's Neutral ending TAS. However, I find TASing on 30fps and only switching to 60 when I actually need it to be much easier. Also, all of the behavior that 60fps inputs allow (double arrow keys and the first frame of a room inputs) are recreatable RTA (albeit pretty tricky), so I see no problem in doing them in a TAS either. If you set the framerate to 60 in libTAS, Undertale will still run in 30fps; you'll just end up having to press buttons for double the amount of frames in the input editor.
I've put the sync notes into the annotations now. This is my first time submitting a TAS to the site, so I'm not sure how exactly to upload the new movie file (I couldn't find where to change the uploaded file when clicking Edit submission). Please let me know where I should upload it :)
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Fortranm wrote:
One question regarding routing: is it possible to get Worn Dagger before facing Undying and head back to Watefall without setting the redemption flag? If yes, would that save z presses?
In this case, getting the worn dagger all the way back to Waterfall isn't really a question of not setting the redemption flag (that wouldn't really be the problem as every redemption flag enemy can be skipped with the punch card), the problem would be keeping the plot value low enough. This value tracks your progress through the game's story, and if it's too high then earlier cutscenes will destroy themselves upon entering the room. As far as I know it's impossible to keep the plot value low enough to keep the Undyne the Undying cutscene active and also advance far enough into Hotland to get to the worn dagger. At the very latest, you would get stuck at the elevators, as they need a high enough plot value to give you the option of going to higher floors. This issue could possibly be circumvented by "plot-warping" to before the undyne fight (sort of like travelling back in time, which is possible with the correct setup) but we don't currently know of any plot warps in Genocide before Undyne the Undying.
What's interesting though is that for Undyne the Undying, the best weapon to get would be the Burnt Pan instead of the Worn Dagger, as it's capable of dealing huge amounts of damage. It is a multihit weapon though (it takes 6 Z presses per turn, as opposed to the single hit weapons' 3 hits per turn), but it does more than twice as much damage so it's still worth it. Getting the Burnt Pan and then returning to Undyne the Undying is also possible by skipping every cutscene on the way to the burnt pan, picking it up, and then skipping every cutscene backwards (the triggers are all still there) on the way back to undyne. I did route out this option, but skipping all those cutscenes twice unfortunately costs too many Z presses to make up for the Burnt Pan being a better weapon than the Toy Knife. For the core grind though, we don't need to deal such huge amounts of damage, so using the Worn Dagger is better because it's a single-hit weapon.
Fortranm wrote:
But what if the text lengths are disregarded? Would it have saved time in a regular Genocide run or some other categories?
It likely would save a bit of time in a regular Genocide TAS if we could do the glitch on versions with Japanese text. The original Genocide Punch Card TAS was only 90 seconds slower than Tommy's TAS that's published on the site, and it also misses some optimizations.
Fortranm wrote:
I think the verification process should be done via files exclusively from official GameMaker and Undertale releases instead of relying on an upload like this.
Normally I would agree, but I'm not sure the TASVideos publishers have GameMaker:Studio version 1.4.1567 from March of 2015 lying around and can export a game for Linux from there. I'm not exactly sure how easy it is to upgrade or downgrade GameMaker:Studio versions, and I believe you'd also need a GameMaker:Studio 1.x license. If they do happen to be able to get that specific version of the Linux GameMaker runner from an official source then by all means use that, but in case they can't easily do that I provided a link for them :)
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Samsara wrote:
I'm with feos on this one. I'm not necessarily against the idea of someone hacking away at SRAM or a savestate to start their showcase run from, but we shouldn't be accepting anything that is completely unverified. I think at the very least, we need a written record of what was modified and a set of reproduction steps that anyone on their own can follow to be able to generate the same files (or at least something similar enough) that the author used.
Ideally, though, these kinds of things are accomplished with Game Genie/Action Replay, or even something like a Lua script that runs alongside the movie and pokes/freezes RAM at the right spots. Consider it futureproofing: If someone 10 years down the line wants to improve such a run, they're not going to be using the same emulator or the same tools. Providing just a savestate or just SRAM is going to be meaningless to them. Written records of repro steps, or more universal things like Game Genie and Lua, are going to stay useful essentially forever.
Ah yeah I understand what you mean, providing an emulator savestate to start the run doesn't make much sense and if i correctly understand how SRAM works then that doesn't necessarily make all that much sense either. I meant using hacked save files with the background of making Undertale TASes, where each version of the game creates save files that work on every other version of the game and regardless of emulator, and where starting a TAS from a save file is a simple as copying the save files to the saves folder that the game reads from. As far as I know game genie/action replay codes don't really work or even exist for PC games anyways.
I do think that at least providing steps on how to make the save file yourself is a good idea though.
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feos wrote:
By unverifiable do you mean unreproducible? If you can't explain how you got that save and it just has to be preserved or the run would desync, that sounds like a bad thing to allow.
Yes that's exactly what I mean, starting from save files that aren't possible to be reached via normal gameplay. For example one that starts the game from the beginning but with late-game items already equipped. A verification movie would not be able to get to those save files. So they would need to be provided alongside the main movie file, along with instructions on where to copy the save files to.
I don't see this as being all that much different from using game genie codes to modify the game, since both would end up putting the game in a state that cannot be reached via normal gameplay, but provides a lot of entertainment value. In the case of the early items example i mentioned, you could technically achieve the same result by using a code that automatically equips these items upon starting a new save file, but I feel that for many games just providing a pre-made save file alongside the TAS would be easier.
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I support this idea in general, and especially like the idea of a new showcase class. It allows for movies that break site rules but are still very entertaining, such as freeruns/glitch showcases, or also movies that start from a hacked, unverifiable save file or use game genie codes to create interesting or funny gameplay. An example from a game I make TASes of, Undertale, would be that it would allow for Early Punch Card TASes. The Punch Card is a very glitchy item that is normally only obtainable after 20 minutes of mostly glitchless gameplay, and Early Punch Card save files start the game with the Punch Card already in your inventory. Removing these sorts of restrictions makes such TASes vastly more entertaining, at the cost of not being possible from a clean state or requiring a modified game to work.
About the point of obsoletion, I feel that movies of this type would not automatically obsolete other movies. Perhaps if the TASers of the old and new movies agree that the old movie should be obsoleted that could work too, but I don't think this type of movie should be obsoletable by default.
About the game genie codes, I think a good system would be to allow one major code that changes gameplay and then to not limit how many minor codes are allowed. If the TASer makes a TAS with more major codes, he should be able to explain why he chose to do that. A major code could be defined as one that affects gameplay in some significant manner throughout the game. So a code that skips some boring intro story cutscene or modifies textures would count as a minor code, and one that adds new types of movement or affects the game's physics significantly would be a major code.
I also really like the idea of changing to SRC's model and using this as category extensions. This would allow for TASing communities of each game to essentially moderate themselves. This would basically solve one of my biggest annoyances with the current system on TASvideos, which is that you pretty much need random people who may have never played your game to find your TAS interesting. Imagine getting a huge world record in a game, but it gets rejected because you didn't go for swag strats or wasn't interesting to some random guy in the comments. It would also mean that TASes with hour-long setups like the SM64 A Button Challenge could be on TASvideos. Obviously watching Mario stand in place for 12 hours just building up speed is not entertaining to watch for your average Joe, but with a system like SRC such a TAS could be accepted anyways, because it's moderated by people who actually play/make TASes of the game.
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Midway through the run once it started looking very glitchy, I lost track of what was going on. I don't really mind not understanding what's going on, and still enjoyed the TAS though!
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feos wrote:
Overall, I think the less explanation is needed, the more solid the goal is.
I disagree with this, when I watch a TAS I like reading a detailed submission text either beforehand or afterwards to better understand what is going on. I find this especially true of games many people may be less familiar with or with quite technical TASes, as otherwise you have no idea what even happened/what the point is. I could have definitely made the submission text much shorter, but I didn't because I want the viewer to have the option of learning about the TAS and the game's mechanics in detail. I see how this is kind of an opinion thing, though.
Also Radiant, your arguments make much more sense to me now. Thank you for clarifying :)
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Radiant wrote:
I'm really not a fan of categories that are highly technical and hard to understand for a casual player. That includes pretty much all "minimum button presses" submissions that I've seen. That you require a seven-line paragraph block of text to explain what it even means (and that there's something as a "half Z press" too) really doesn't help.
You're correct that this TAS is pretty technical, that's why I explained it in detail and in what I believe to be in a fairly simple way in the submission text.
That paragraph you mention is largely taken from the script of Pannenkoek's Super Mario 64 video "Watch for Rolling Rocks in 0.5 A presses (Commentated)" which iirc has millions of views and is a huge meme. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend watching it. Not only do I think you'll enjoy the video a lot, it might have you appreciate the wacky lengths TASers go to and the creative ideas involved in making a TAS optimized for controller input instead of time.
To clarify, a half Z press just means pressing the Z button, and then continuing to hold it down for actions that only require Z to be held, not pressed.
Radiant wrote:
And then I'm surprised that this movie is almost 50% longer than [4149] Linux Undertale (v1.08) "Genocide ending" in 58:10.93 by TommyeAsY.
The final time of the run is irrelevant since that's not at all the point of the TAS. In terms of minimum controller input challenges, that's a pretty good time, especially compared to challenges like Super Mario 64's A Button Challenge, which has strats like building up speed for 12 hours.
Radiant wrote:
and let me cite an earlier judgment on the topic, "while a technical challenge, I don't believe it produces interesting movies ... No one playing SMB counts the number of times they press a button while playing the game, or the number of jumps they make, and etc. These super technical categories don't really fit with the aims of the site."
As feos mentioned, the site now accepts minimum controller input TASes. In fact, because I noticed the SMB Minimum A Presses TAS on the site, I decided to submit this TAS to the site. Before, I had assumed this kind of TAS would be quickly rejected due to not being optimized for time (and because the Undertale/Deltarune speedrunning community doesn't necessarily have the best relationship with TASvideos).
The point about nobody counting how many times they press a button is a good one, and it's why I count the Z presses for you next to the encode and have an input display. The implication that these types of TASes are thus automatically uninteresting to the viewer is wrong, and the Pannenkoek video mentioned above is an excellent counterexample.
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I'm aware that this TAS isn't necessarily the most interesting or unique one out there. I'm currently in the process of submitting a Genocide ending Z button challenge TAS, which features pretty unique routing and a new major glitch (Genocide Punch Card), and a big reason I made this Neutral ending TAS is that I would find it strange to make/submit a "bad ending" TAS without making a "standard ending" one first.
