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BruceShankle wrote:
Thank you very much for the praise homerfunky! What you accomplished in 10 years, I performed in 10 minutes, so I must be so talented! I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it is april fools day... :P Maybe someone will seriously attempt something with the debug rom though, being able to edit your inventory and whatnot has potential to make something cool.
Yes, yes it does. :)
(Well done on this joke, it's a good one!)
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This certainly was interesting, it was a bit rough sitting through the second part but the payoff was worth it. I think. Probably.
Well done on this regardless of what happens. :)
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DJ Incendration wrote:
HappyLee being banned? That's a bad move, I'd say. He has created many wonderful TASes and set the bar quite high for SMB TASing. It's ok to disagree with the rules, and he didn't mean to attack anyone.
Putting my senior staff hat on for just a moment, while I agree that it's absolutely okay to disagree with the rules, it's not okay to do so in a way that attacks others. There was some bad behavior in this thread from more than just HappyLee, but I'd specifically point out that HappyLee was asked to refrain from personal accusations and he did not stop. When he was temporarily banned, he blatantly created an alt account in direct violation of the rules he claimed to have read so carefully. I'm advocating for a moderate response as I feel HappyLee got caught up in the moment there; still, if HappyLee's indefinite ban is reversed I expect him to exercise more kindness to others in his discussions than what was demonstrated in this thread.
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Fortranm wrote:
I guess this is a moot point if there won't be an input file of any sort for this submission for other reasons.
We've provided everything except Nintendo assets in a form that anyone can reproduce given enough human skill (or by using the ACE shortcut patch which changes 271 bytes), and others have independently built the romhack version and reported their results. Because of the size, it's currently stored in the GitHub repo linked in the description. We could in theory make a polyglot file and put the compressed ~82 MB of data (or 1.2 MB of what's injected over the controller ports) into it but it would require allowing submission files to be that large (it currently claims it's limited to 500k). Still, we *have* released everything we possibly can. Even the actual submission file is the ACE portion but for an emulator (it will not work on a real console due to accuracy and other issues).
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SmashManiac wrote:
The point is, it doesn't matter how great the technical explanations are about something or who contributed to it if they cannot be verified independently. Again, I don't personally doubt the work by the team here, but as long as reasonable doubt remains I believe it should not be considered valid for publication on the site without a disclaimer at the very least, especially on a site like TASVideos where integrity is everything.
I touched on this above, but this has been done twice in front of a live audience on two different consoles at two different events with different commentators (SGDQ 2022 and ESA Summer 2022). The human ACE portion will also likely be done by someone other than Savestate (we tried to have Blastermak do it but the angles are very difficult; it's likely we'll have a different human runner do that part live during MAGFest, however). Absolutely everything past that initial ACE has been done repeatedly by a number of people, although again, without the assets that Nintendo would come after us for distributing (see more below).
Even then, what you're asking for is entirely unreasonable for live content; almost everything done for a live event is effectively a oneshot effort. It either works or it fails, but there's generally only one chance to show that content. Many times it's not possible to recreate what we did after that live event because the efforts usually involve multiple people coming together from around the world. A good example of this would be when we had Funkmastermp bring his mashbot creation to play Super Scribblenauts. Having said that, I'm in no way trying to shirk off verifiability or create some kind of weird Todd Rogers situation so I openly invite you to challenge anything done at a live event by talking to people who were there and saw it live or were involved in the production on the GDQ side. It won't always be possible to reach someone easily but this is all content done openly, on stage, with no trickery when it comes to really truly doing these things on real hardware. We're also extremely vocal and open about any changes that were made such as improvements for video quality, as evidenced by talking plainly about the passive analog RGB tap for better video. If you have any questions about the validity of something, just ask.
SmashManiac wrote:
dwangoAC wrote:
SmashManiac wrote:
The run cannot be reproduced by an independent 3rd party because some of the data needed to do so has never been released publicly due to copyright concerns.
As was the case with SMB on SMW, site rules dictate we cannot link to ROMs and as such we also can't release the full payload for the same reason, we'd be in violation of the site's rules if we did. Instead, we've released the open source portions, and those have been independently verified.
Current site rules aside, may I suggest adding said copyrighted materials as input for the corresponding open source build toolchains? It would resolve that issue.
Hi! You appear to again be asking me to take a significant legal risk. I will not do so. Everything I did directly with OoT during the development of the Triforce% project was, at least in the US, legal; I even did a stream where I showed my own US version 1.0 cartridge and dumped a backup copy of the ROM that I then used to do further work, demonstrating that I owned the assets in question and demonstrating through the dumping process that no encryption that would trigger DMCA was in play. To ask me to distribute those assets, even encoded as button presses, is literally asking for me to personally both violate the rules of the site and violate the law of the land. As a public face I very much attempt to live above reproach and what you're asking is at odds with that. I kindly request that you do not ask me to break the law again, and thank you for your understanding on that matter.
Bringing things back to a more general reply, I'd like to redirect folks back to the Let's figure out how to publish TASBot's GDQ showcases thread; that was the place and time to discuss the type/class/category/process questions that Samsara raised back in July and I waited a very long time before submitting this run to see if anyone else had thoughts there. That thread was all about "how" to handle the general questions around event content and while I wanted to allow this thread to be more focused on conversations about Triforce% we've certainly had a lot of that chatter here as well. These are all things that have been discussed at length for years and this submission is merely the catalyst to bring the conversation back to the forefront.
For my part, I would point back to my continued belief over the last many years that event content needs to be its own type of fully represented content on the site; not gruefood delight, not at stars level, definitely not competing with other rigorously vetted in-emulator content, but something at the same level of visibility as normal content with a unique earmarking. No matter how you parse it, Triforce% absolutely used Tools to Assist in a Superplay, something this site was founded on, and the fact we have narrow minded rules that are emulator bound has resulted in this on-console TAS content becoming so marginalized that it birthed the entire independent TASBot community through what amounted to forced segregation at the time, but I digress. Let's find a path forward that allows this type of TAS content to be represented, I know we can find a solution that satisfies the needs and desires of most everyone.
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SmashManiac wrote:
The run cannot be reproduced by an independent 3rd party because some of the data needed to do so has never been released publicly due to copyright concerns.
As was the case with SMB on SMW, site rules dictate we cannot link to ROMs and as such we also can't release the full payload for the same reason, we'd be in violation of the site's rules if we did. Instead, we've released the open source portions, and those have been independently verified.
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Alyosha wrote:
Unfortunately not entirely reproducible, which i guess is fine for a demonstration, but really too bad emulation couldn't do much to help things along here, and thus doesn't leave much afterwards either.
Unfortunately, no current emulator can accurately reproduce some of the effects (there's also some microcode changes). However, this *has* been reproduced - we were able to perform the run during ESA and I look forward to posting that video soon. :)
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jlun2 wrote:
Just to clarify, it's specific to these events right? I mean, I'd support making codes L,D,E if it was for special events like this, and not some livestream of someone no one here has heard of, but has a massive following. Are there any requirements for what other showcases are allowed?
I personally feel it should be a submission process where the submitter demonstrates that it's a significant run and it's judged based on that. I'm an inclusionist of course but I'd rather see everyone get an opportunity to submit something. At any rate, I'm going to submit a run with a dummy submission file and we'll see how things go.
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Note: I don't want to see content limited to just things I'm involved in or that come in through the TASBot community that's formed out of the adjacent "on console TAS content" work. I very much want to see a future where someone can submit something shown live and have it included regardless of where, so long as it's verified to have legitimately taken place at an event (online or otherwise). I'm of course well known as an inclusionist but I think we can find a happy balance. I'd also include the entire ambassador team in the list of folks with access to help validate runs submitted this way.
I have more thoughts on this matter but I'm still quite busy coming off of the SGDQ 2022 content so I'll have to check back here later. :)
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We're making renewed progress and thanks to help from Kes there's now a wiki page up at at https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/User:Agulp/Tool_Assisted_Speedrun to document the project a bit better. We're focused on producing a 2,003 turn run that doesn't make major sacrifices to entertainment. It's a monumental effort that continues to consume hours beyond count for those involved but the payoff is starting to materialize. We're going back to "hex in" some changes to adapt what we've done with a new plan and we're working on better documenting what that plan actually is so folks can make meaningful progress.
All that to say, the dream isn't dead - please feel free to get involved if this project interests you!
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Valkhiya wrote:
If it's pure routing and it's a smooth experience (read: I have access to savestates), I might get tempted
Ooooh, allow me to tempt you even further than the devs already have! :)
For context for others, one of the main devs (Marukyu) replied to Valkhiya on the Synchrony Discord with "I'll see if I can throw together some TASing tools with full map vision and undo, which should be able to produce some pretty fancy-looking replays". In essence, it amounts to making full in-game TAS support with all of the features you'd expect. I'm excited to see so many awesome things coming together here!
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We had some very good conversations in the Synchrony Discord server about improving determinism. The issue is it's possible for multiple events to happen at the same time that are then not handled consistently, as well as lag spikes that may impact input. The devs are on board with making improvements, which is awesome. Valkhiya, you may want to join the Synchrony Discord server as well as there are some fun conversations afoot. :)
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Hmm... Or perhaps use libTAS and the built in replay system simultaneously? So many bad ideas, heh. Is anyone willing to try a modern version? Likewise, if the game is open source perhaps we can improve things. :)
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Valkhiya wrote:
I think if there is enough interest they have the best chance of being able to implement a TAS mode into Synchrony, and probably the people most interested in potentially TASing the game.
Oooh, do you know if Synchrony works in Linux? If so, libTAS may be an option - would you have any interest in taking a look? I... really shouldn't take on another project what with all the TASBot work ahead but I sure would like to see this done right. :)
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Dredging up this old thread for a bit, would this game be a candidate for a game specific TAS framework for the purposes of submission? I'd love to see a TAS of this published on the site but I lack the time to make it happen myself and I'm hoping someone can do it for me, heh. Have there been any newer TAS's of the game?
