Hi. I don't know Yuzu's thoughts, but he's said he modeled it after the RTA category "All Bosses No EG". Obviously he allows left+right and up+down, maybe more. So this is not a "No Major Glitches" category, nor is it labelled as such! It only disallows EG.
EG is a pretty well defined tech. Well, it used to be at least. In ALttP, rooms can have two layers (bottom floor and top floor), and Link also has a property to say which layer he is on. This decides his collision map. For example he can move under a bridge on the bottom layer, but is more restricted if he's on top of the bridge in the upper layer. If you're moving around in a layer that is unintended (Link will in this case "appear" below the floor), you are using EG.
What he's using in these videos is another category of glitches, which we call Door Glitches (Transition Corruptions is a better term imo.) It's especially potent with left+right or up+down. The most common way is to "step on" a transition boundary and interrupt the transition animation. The game will think you transitioned, but Link will stay put. You can keep stepping on the same transition boundary and jump multiple screens ahead.
One side-effect of many Door Glitches it is that the graphical representation of the game might not be quite updated on where Link truly is. This is purely graphical and does not cause anything to be EG or not. What matters is where Link truly is (his coordinate and which layer he's on). Due to this, it is less obvious if Link is in EG or not at times, but there's no reason to assume he is, since Yuzu labelled it No EG, and he generally knows what he's doing. :)
Well, it used to be at least.
I say this because of the new understanding of the Plaid World tech, which looks like, smells like and tastes like EG, yet technically it has nothing to do with being on the wrong layer. So we should probably redefine EG to include Plaid World at some point.
Oh my gosh! If you guys watch Yuzuhara's movie, no one won't be satisfied with my work.
Yuzuhara is in a class above anyone honestly. The initial founder of YBA, and he understood transition corruptions better than anyone, as seen from the youtube video I linked (which goes above my head too).
I'd wish it didn't make you not want to work on the game, because I and others have been entertained by your work already. More people will surely be entertained if you submit it. Submitting a sub 1 hour 100% run to tasvideos.org would be a great achievement, and it could inspire others to look for improvements, which is only a good thing. (I am one of them. Watching your TAS has made me want to TAS too.)
Also that youtube clip is the most insane thing I've seen. I don't think he has stuff like that in every dungeon.
But anyone should only do what they want to do, so if you don't want to submit a run I completely respect that.
Edit: Forgot to mention, afaik he is not active. He might never post anything alttp related ever again.
Skimmed through the smv (can't invest more time into it right now).
For tasing, displaying values are preferred.
My bad.
So the battle should be done after you get the Hookshot.
This is faster anyways, since the AI starts when you enter the room.
I had thought Link's position related with lags between the light and the dark world.
You mean quick warp? This is not lag, it's just a bug where game finishes warp animation faster sometimes. All that matters is Camera X position, not Link's X position, which will shift slightly relative from the Camera X, depending on certain actions like dashing or holding dpad inputs during overworld transitions.
Some notes:
Check out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4vazptC7Gw (found on yuzu's twitter @yuzuhara_ideas - inactive but has a couple things there still). If it's not possible to use any of that, then at least you can push the water lever right after grabbing hookshot. Skips one of the key pots when you visit Swamp.
Also, pick up crystals such that their shadow is right below Link's eyes. Pendants you want to pick up low, crystals you will lose up to 30f if you do this (Link will catch the crystal faster, but the animation afterwards will be slower). Or rather, it depends on how the screen is scrolled.
You can definitely skip the hard reset after ice rod. But it's hard for me to tell you exactly which inputs to do, because it depends on which frame you pick up Bombos on, and which coordinate Link has when you pick it up. It shouldn't be too hard with trying/failing different coordinates until you find one that works well (can use yba.lua to see the collision tiles).
Looks like you are only missing 34s for sub 1 hour? You will also lose some seconds in real time due to snes9x running on ~59.94 fps instead of ~60.1, not sure if that matters in the TAS community, or if you only care about frames? But I will look more into it in detail later when I have time. I've also shared it with the people in Discord, maybe someone on there have any suggestions for routing. 30s isn't _that_ much! :)
Oh and since it's TAS. If you find a good opportunity to get your shield stolen from a Pikit it could save on lag frames in multiple places (crystal cutscene especially, but also things like pushing lever in Swamp, and some transitions.) Might be worth it.
About doorway glitches, I think there are several patterns. With scroll, without scroll, escaping through the gap, and going south and appearing north.
Yeah. But the technical effect of all of them is that 7E00A0 (current loaded room) and 7E00A9/7E00AA (current quadrant Link is in) does not sync up with Link's coordinates (7E0020 and 7E0022). Basically Link's coordinates points to another screen or room than what the game thinks. This is what makes transitions act out, and different transitions can have different effects depending on the exactly how you're unsynced.
But there are problems. If you perform doorway glitches, you cannot slash enemies and scroll does not work properly.
Yeah. Link is able to collide with normal walls and doors because the game uses his relative coordinates (between 0x0 and 0x200) for that, but for sprites it's using the absolute coordinate (between 0x0 and 0x2000) so you need to be in sync. There are ways to fix it (fall in hole before u transition), and a few YBAs even automatically fixes the sync, like PoD Mimics, Vitty swordspin YBA, Arrghus swordspin YBA etc.
Quadrant glitch is used by RTA player with Somaria Glitch in Turtle Rock in order to access Agahnim 2. I tried doorway glitch and Somaria Glitch there, but I couldn't access Agahnim 2 with capable of attacking.
Study the exact movement, it's important. Start by holding down until you hit the fence, then transition up, then you need to go a little bit up before you can take the transition down again. Sometimes Link will travel further into the next screen if you keep holding down, and sometimes not (this is not 100% understood). But the RTA method is 100% consistent, probably in a TAS you can find a faster way that lets you hold down.
Btw, Reset-Button seems necessary. I couldn't access Hookshot nor Agahnim 1 in the Plaid World without Reset. I tried inserting 'Reset' at the first frame in the movie. It does not cause desync, still I could not access them.
Yeah, this is a bit complicated and I would have to see the full TAS up to that point to tell you exactly how you can fix it. (Your latest SMV desynces for me in Uncle's room btw. - I'm using Snes9x 1.51 v7 rr.)
But basically, the 4th row on the EG map (the row with Lanmola and Hookshot in it) in Plaid World will use a bunch of different memory addresses for its collision map. So for example releasing a spin will change some of the tiles, using or grabbing items like bombos or ether will as well. I'm assuming that's what happened. A list of at least some of the things affecting this row can be found under the section "$3x" at https://pastebin.com/8MAabJQQ.
You can fix it by resetting right before going into Plaid World, since this resets the RAM. But then you still will have to manipulate in a chest. I don't think it's needed to reset for a TAS (it's slower than just Save & Quit so you would want to try to avoid it), and instead try to pick up Bombos (if this is the problem) from a different X/Y coordinate and see if it's better.
You should definitely use this LUA script - https://milde.no/public/alttp/yba.lua - press X on the keyboard to see the collision map in Plaid World (Z toggles the extended HUD which is invaluable when messing with Door Glitches). It will show you exactly what you're colliding with, so maybe you can find a route around the obstacles. If not, try to grab Bombos from another coordinate and see again. If this makes you completely stuck I can see if I can find a way that would be good for a TAS.
In RTA we reset the console after killing Mothula (to clear up the path to Agahnim 1) and we release a sword spin aligned with this wall - https://puu.sh/yvlBb/9c629da350.png - which manipulates in a chest that's easy to grab. You can't spin again until after you grab the chest though, or it will be removed. You can also do the spin here - https://puu.sh/yvmaC/7654abd7c4.png - which is a backup for RTA. But best for TAS would be to find a good pixel to grab Bombos/Ether from.
@neo_omegon you might want to join our discord, if only to lurk. Random videos are posted there from time to time with new discoveries. Mostly not useful, though :)
Here's one from last week https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_2o-xpnNeo. Can also cause some weird teleportation that should be looked more into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdkiuvL4oWI.
Edit: Oh, and today I found that if you catch a crystal while pushing a somaria block, you will save lag frames during the crystal cutscenes. This is due to the shield not being visible in the "push" animation, which persists through the cutscene.
35f for Vitreous. Not enough since it takes around 70f to change item, but it could be useful in glitched categories if you need to use somaria anyways.
This can be done by pulling a wall too, which is possible if you for example kill Helmasaur after an YBA - the screen doesn't lock, so if you move high up in the room before crystal drops, it will drop high enough that you can grab the spike with A and catch the crystal. It's free frames!
Trying to define which glitches are "minor" or "major" seems silly
In the RTA community, a minor glitch should not make "Any% NMG" different from "All Dungeons/Bosses NMG". So basically anything that doesn't sequence break the game in such a way where you start skipping the big milestones in the game. The essence of it is to play the game with a somewhat normal route, but allow micro-optimizations like spinspeed and bomb jumps.
We have an "official" list of what is defined as a Major Glitch here https://pastebin.com/bb0vHjcm, but it's not complete by any stretch. For example "Door glitches" should probably be renamed to something like "Transition Corruption" as glitches like dying while falling in a hole or glitches that skips a quadrant flag flip (for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-OgGQWLko4) have been understood to work in the exact same technical way as e.g. YBA and Somaria jukes.
But maybe the TAS community would want a different set of rules than the RTA community. This has been unproblematic for us for quite a few years at least (there were some discussions when YBA was found initially.. :))
For example, YBA gives arbitrary code execution [snip] Showing off glitches is fun, but how do you make a run which doesn't devolve into "Skip to the end"?
Luckily not a problem in RTA. Though I actually found a crash recently (potion + indoors warp tile) that jumps straight to $7E00F8, which contains 4 bytes for last frame controller inputs (enough for a JSL), so whenever I'm not feeling lazy I'll try to figure out a constructive RTA-able ACE there. :)
But obviously with ACE, you don't have to actually play the game, and can jump around screens, fill up your inventory etc. so I assume it's quite common in the TAS community to disallow it if your goal is not to show it off..
Also, while YBA _can_ cause ACE, so can probably mirror (causes a lot of different crashes). I don't see YBA especially connected to that.
How do you define code execution?
I'd say the game executing unintended code that is specially crafted by you to achieve some goal, or something more eloquant.
Maybe you also have to ban Wrong Warps/door way glitches/wall clipping teleports..
Again, we don't ban moving around or the pegasus boots because it enables clipping. We just ban clipping. You don't have to ban everything that can cause an ACE, just ban ACE :).
However, I noticed that current RTA 100% speed runners abuse YBA to do things like: Kill all bosses while in escape glitch mode, and only return to the dungeon to pick up their diamonds. If YBA lets you do crazy things like this, then I had to take a step back and really figure out if it made any sense to start with Zelda at all, and not just YBA and do crazy things.
I quite like the new Plaid World tech personally :). Matter of taste I guess.
Despite what Tompa said on this thread 3 years ago, boss chests do open up even without the right key, and everything unlocks if you are technically in the "Cave" dungeon.
It's a little bit more complicated than that. I made https://pastebin.com/tenzyZWh to show which big keys are required from cave to open up things, and also which big keys will be set if you pick up a big key. In most routes you'll have big key inside caves, since you'll usually get one in Hyrule Castle at the very start.
But you can also use doorway glitches to confuse the game into thinking you're somewhere else, and thus open chests that aren't even on the same screen as you. Do you even need to go to the Big Chest screens at all, at that point?
In our experience, yes. It's not a lot of places where it's faster to get big chest contents from a different chest. The ability to do this fast in a TAS is of course better though.
I think the only instance in RTA 100% is when we grab hookshot from Plaid World (which is one of the coolest thing in the run imo: We release a spin attack at a specific coordinate, which populates a memory address with a value that is interpreted as an interactable chest tile from Plaid World, and so we can grab the hookshot right after killing Lanmolas..)
>Floating glitch is not available without pegasusu boots, IIRC
My bad. TAS-ing this game is so fast it didn't dawn on me you had no Pegasus Boots yet :)
>I'm going to get infinite rupees with YBA, I won't duplicate a heart container
It's the same decision we did with speedruns for this game so no worries.
Enjoyed watching that, neo_omegon :-)
I'm not a TAS-er at all, but I have some knowledge about glitches that you might not be aware of, as there's been a lot of new things the last couple of months.
Mainly it's understanding "Plaid World" better. This is what we call that place you get to if you YBA flute. I made a write-up on this here (meant to be a non-technical description, but you can look at my code from the lua-script included in that text): https://gist.github.com/helgefmi/6cca5f2a52de663d41b7332b116b0edc
I should note that even though this document is a few weeks old, it's a bit outdated already. One thing I'll add is that to actually reproduce the "infinite sanctuary heart" video, you need to die in a cave first. :)
I think this can be well applied in a TAS like this; at the very least you can skip all the heart pieces: https://milde.no/public/alttp/clips/plaidSanctuaryHeartDupe.mp4
But with some clever routing it could be a faster way to kill bosses and fetch items as well. You can look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hLFt-X3kTk for an example of what we do in 100% speedruns currently (killing 4 bosses and grabbing hookshot in the same segment, then we have a separate crystal/pendant segment later on.)
Perhaps you can draw some inspiration from the glitched 100% speedruns as well. You can find them on https://www.speedrun.com/alttp under "Major Glitches". The speedrun route does require all heart pieces to be grabbed, though, and obviously we have no ability to do left+right. :)
Newly developed routes for 100% glitched speedruns (all HPs): https://pastebin.com/7gwV7HNn
Same for RBO: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OewRZA8ahscIH3YZis_8ZsqCuAzrLaDPJtAr69x0yII/
One thing that I immediately saw as a possible improvement. In Palace of Darkness, when you bomb the floor to get to the Big Key: If you kill yourself on the same frame as you fall down the hole, Link will spawn north of the hole, and you can just move south to fall down the hole again. The door will be open, and so you skip the first small key. I believe you can see applications of this in the newest 100% glitched speedrun by xReleased.
Maybe it is also faster to Hover to get to the big chest, instead of using a bomb. You can clip the railing while hovering and get to the platform.
