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I finally got some time to watch the whole run. Thanks Bruce for the encode.
The run is really stunning, I loved seeing complicated strategies done in a TAS setup. I am thinking of the shadow early strat, and the colossus magic beans and damage boost strat. The optimisation is really satisfying. Good job on the run, and it really deserves my Yes vote !
There are some micro-optimisation I am thinking of which I don't know if you knew about (based on your encode without cutscenes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CUfatb_Ppw):
- At 3:37, you did a jumpslash to burn the stick, but I've seen TheTasMaster do a backflip to do so in his Any% no SRM run at 7:15: https://youtu.be/l7k55RwJboU?t=435. Did you also try it ?
- At 9:41, did you try to see if damage boosting + push using the bubble to the other side is faster than lowering down the bridge ? Here's what it looks like if you didn't know: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5O3ux9ht0g. That could be slower though, as you need to do that a second time to return to the crawlspace, but you also would not have to take damage from the stalfos.
- At 29:53, you could have manipulated barinade such that before the last hit, it is the close to you so that you can deal the final blow without using the boomerang, as done here, at 14:54: https://youtu.be/HNcZclOkn8c?t=894. However, I am not sure this technique is allowed in glitchless.
- At 31:28, there is a trick to grab the ocarina faster. As soon as you start having downwards speed, you can press A to grab the ocarina immediately instead of having to dive all the way down. Here's a video of zfg explaining the execution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_bkLpKzwkg.
- At 36:07, it's faster to grab the ledge on the path of Dampe, as you make him faster, and you can also grab the ledge without jumpslashing, which saves time, as shown here, at 0:33: https://youtu.be/7uD_S5MQtek?t=33.
- I see that when you enter a new area with running speed, you usually stop and then start sidehopping, for example at 17:11. Usually, it's faster in these cases to start a roll, and then sidehop (especially as adult), because rolling at maximum walking speed is the optimal roll. In the case of Zelda's courtyard, rolling then sidehopping was like 2 visual frames faster if I remember correctly when making my MST TAS.
- I see that you don't seem to use optimised backwalking to start backwalking faster by changing your analog angle to match the move angle of the backwalk. Fox has made a video showing what it looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR11qdI-KPE and has also a tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLL8-cXxQSU. Using this would save some frames each time you backwalk.
That's all I had to say. I am impressed by your patience to make long runs, and really look forward for more from you !
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I am glad to see you back Swordless Link after so many years !
Unfortunately, I have a potato computer and can't playback at full speed with Bizhawk. I will wait for an encode, can't wait to see this run !
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Memory wrote:
Which different glitches are used between this and the publication aside from the obvious (ace, wrong warp)?
In this run there are glitches that are the same as the currently published movie such as Water Extended SuperSlide (WESS) or Wrong Warping (although it is done in a very different way here).
Since this run uses ACE in Kokiri forest, some setup has to be done that exploit some glitches not used in the previous run. These are the Walk While Talking (WWT) glitch combined with the Return A glitch. Both of these glitch enable to perform the Stale Reference Manipulation (SRM) glitch, which is of course not used the previous run as well.
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Slowking wrote:
PS: Might want to change "Video plugin: GlideN64" to "Video plugin: GLideN64" otherwise it's a bit more likely to be confused with the old Glide plugins than it is already (the dev really didn't pick a great name there).
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CasualPokePlayer wrote:
So looking at the RTA boards, the GCN version seems to be the version used in the top two times. From what I understand, the GCN version has a different setup than the N64 version, which is much faster than the N64 setup. So I'm wondering how this translate to a TAS.
To be clear, from what I understand the GCN version is just the original game being ran on a (shitty) N64 emulator, and this ACE exploit breaks out of the sandbox due to an emulator bug within this N64 emulator and executes the credits (which is apparently just a pre-rendered video, so GCN code can access it). I'm not sure if this would actually be considered legitimate due to the fact that it's abusing an emulator bug (albeit this wouldn't be abusing anything in Dolphin and this can be done on an actual GCN), but perhaps that should be discussed for potential future cases.
Someone pointed that out when I released the TAS. The GameCube route was found while I was making it so I didn't want to get disturbed by it.
But I just made now a rough comparison of N64 route VS GC route in a TAS setup, and GC version is roughly 5 seconds slower: https://youtu.be/ktqmllZ455w
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andypanther wrote:
It's amazing how they can still find things like this after all these years!
I guess this makes the recently published MST TAS outdated again. I wonder if it would be faster now to do Jabu as adult.
The new unrestricted item glitch may potentially obsolete the new MST TAS. I checked myself a bit the glitch, but I don't think the glitch is usable, at least for now, because in order to equip the boomerang as adult, we must either get a spell (forore's wind seems the most convenient ), or either get the pocket egg, and along with which item we took, we must at the same time not get Zelda's letter since it's the item that is selected when we hold down left. The problem with this is that it means that we must also not get Zelda's lullaby, but the lullaby is required at multiple places in this category. We can RBA that song, but RBA is not allowed in MST.
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Slowking wrote:
So I guess credits warp is still not allowed in MST? Kinda sad.
Yeah, credits warp is not allowed in MST, but it's better to not allow it in my opinion, so we can show the tower collapse, Ganon fight etc...
Slowking wrote:
Still wondering if a Ganondoor from fire might not be faster than going up the tower. It is almost 4 minutes afterall. I know it would involve splitting fire and not wrong warping to forest, but still.
This is an idea I personally didn't thought about. I don't know at all, but it can definitely be faster since the Ganondorf fight will then be skipped, but I don't even know if it's allowed in MST. If so, it can be worth doing, but it'd require going to the Forest Temple without any wrong warp and the closest spot to it is Inside Death Mountain Crater by playing the Bolero. After that it'd require doing the Requiem of Forest cutscene skip (which can be done either by dying or either by voiding). But in general it can be faster.
Slowking wrote:
For boat skip I always thought for a TAS it should be quicker not to use the entrance point glitch, but to directly hover into the pre boss room. Did you test that one?
Yes I tested it, and it requires 2 extra-bombchus to hover and then jump to the pre-boss room. However, with the route I used, it would definitely be slower, because the time that will be saved won't be faster than the time saved in the other spots where I used bombchus. BUT, in the submission description, I said that we can use the Hookshot Jump method to save up to 3 bombchus, but the method is 8 seconds slower (see the comparison). Also, not doing the entrance point glitch would save 2 pauses (roughly 4-5 seconds). It needs a more precise look to know exactly if it's faster. But unfortunately, the Hookshot Jump was discovered when I already got past the Shadow Temple by a lot.
Slowking wrote:
Also wondering if it might not be worth it to play this on 1.1 for bomb OI, considering how often you have to use OI. It would slow botw down a little, since you'd need to do the crawl space glitch with text, but might be worth it in the long run. Would also mean that you'd have to buy less stuff, since you'd use the crawl space further away and there are sticks and nuts on the way.
The version choice is something that made me restart the run 3 times. It's true that it can be worth, but it'd require comparing all the parts when OI is involved to know the real answer. A bomb still takes roughly 4 seconds to explode and the OI with fish takes about 10 seconds. And yes, I also forgot that additionally, it'd require to buy less stuffs, but I think that if we use this 1.1 version, the sword may be needed, or maybe worth taking, but not sure.
To conclude concerning these possible improvements, I only have to say that a big comparison must be made between all of these possible improvements, but I never wanted to do so. I may do one to see if the run really needs more improvements and if it's worth redoing in the future.
Slowking wrote:
Pokota wrote:
Was the necessity of resets the sole reason for using Mupen?
Resets are quite a bit more stable in Bizhawk than they are in Mupen. For example Majora's Mask can't be reset during a TAS on Mupen at all. You'll get random desyncs afterwards that can't be fixed. No such problems on Bizhawk. (and hopefully Fox will get off his butt soon, so we can actually see that in action)
homerfunky wrote:
No, I used Mupen for 2 main reasons:
- Bizhawk still has desyncs, at least, from my experience with it, so I must always keep checking regularly if the TAS syncs.
- Mupen runs the game so much faster than Bizhawk on my computer. So it's much faster and less painful to check for desyncs. With the playback speed set to the maximum (6400%), Bizhawk only runs the game at 80 FPS (60 is the normal speed).
That's weird. Bizhawk should sync better than mupen and with compareable settings run compareably fast (Dynarec, Jabo, etc.). Ofcourse Pure Interpreter and GlideMk2 are better and somewhat slower, but you don't have to use them.
Edit: Bizhawk 1.8.4 seems to be around 10fps faster than 1.13.1 though. So at some point there seems to have been some regression.
I already used Dynamic Recompiler. And also, I don't know if it's normal, but Jabo doesn't even work for me, when I launch the game, I just have a weird freeze screen, the game still runs because I can hear something.
I didn't intend to submit this TAS here when making it since I knew it'd be rejected for emulator choice and that people would complain about it. But after publishing the run in my Youtube channel, Mothrayas said he would make an exception, so I submitted it.
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Pokota wrote:
When did you start this TAS? I know you said in the submission you restarted the TAS in late 2016 but was that starting over from zero?
Yes it was restarted from zero (actually not fully zero, it was remade from right after the Kokiri Forest entrance cutscene) since the rupee route at the beginning is already different from the previous route.
Pokota wrote:
Was the necessity of resets the sole reason for using Mupen?
No, I used Mupen for 2 main reasons:
- Bizhawk still has desyncs, at least, from my experience with it, so I must always keep checking regularly if the TAS syncs.
- Mupen runs the game so much faster than Bizhawk on my computer. So it's much faster and less painful to check for desyncs. With the playback speed set to the maximum (6400%), Bizhawk only runs the game at 80 FPS (60 is the normal speed).
Pokota wrote:
Does BizHawk not record resets into the movie?
For that last question, the version of BizHawk that was available at the time might not have recorded N64 resets so if that's the case I can stand behind a special exemption.
Bizhawk does record resets in the current version, but I don't know for the version that was available when the TAS was started, but I think it should have.
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Samsara wrote:
Now that I think about it, if you've been correcting homerfunky's grammar and English in every post he makes, how do we know what he actually wants? I sincerely doubt someone like you would pass up the opportunity to put self-supporting words in someone else's mouth.
Sonickpacker corrected me for the submission description and for this post:
homerfunky wrote:
I would like if this movie is published that the movie link goes to the main upload
When the movie was published, i noticed it has been linked to TVC encode so i asked sonickpacker to repost something saying that i would like the movie linked to his encode.
The other posts by me including this post has been written by me, nobody corrected me.
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People who have desyncs at the reset: does it always desyncs at the same spot or does it desyncs at different spots ? someone told me he got desyncs at different spots just after the reset : one in mario screen and one in file select.
So like sonickpacker, i advise you to make a savestate when catching the rabbit and playback again and again until it syncs.
And also, by saying it desyncs, you mean there was a bad input or the file A hasn't been saved ?
And if it desyncs, maybe try to use the pre-patched rom wich can be officially found here: (MOD EDIT: Read the rules regarding ROM links; that includes hacks that still contain copyrighted content. -Mothrayas)
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GoddessMaria15 wrote:
I can't get this to sync past the 95th star. Tried the v8 and the one suggested by the author... any ideas on what I am doing wrong?
Some people got desync too at 95 stars and some other people didn't.
I really don't know why that happens. Try to use the same CRC as mine in the m64, maybe that can fix the issue or use the same settings (video plugin, RSP) with the default settings.
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andypanther wrote:
Also, to every SM64 TASer out there: Use Bizhawk in the future! I know you like to use Mupen for some reason, but it's a really cheap way to get faster times with its inaccuracy. TASes don't need to save time in such a way :)
i didn't know Mupen64 was faster for time o_o. And also i used Mupen because i used it every times and when i tried Bizhawk i noticed it was a slow emulator for me, it does savestates much slower, fast fordward isn't so fast. So these things doesn't give me motivation to TAS with Bizhawk. And i started the TAS 1 year before, so i don't know if Bizhawk supported N64 at that time...
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thecoreyburton wrote:
What's the checksum on the rom once the patch is applied? I can't get the reset around 1:04:00 working.
if you can't get the reset, the only thing i can tell you is to use Mupen64-rerecording-v2-reset. if you don't use it to playback the movie, it will desync at 95 stars.
And the checksum should be written in the M64 before playbacking, it's also called "CRC" on Mupen64.
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Spikestuff wrote:
The one thing that puts me off was Mario stopping for a few seconds and then going again (movement).
To what it looked like, you were waiting for the camera to come down.
Refraining from voting until an explination for Mario stopping is given.
What do you mean by saying "stopped moving for a few seconds then going again"
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Patashu wrote:
BTW homerfunky, you may use 'preview' instead of submitting an edit, to see if the edit does what you want.
sorry for editing every times . it's my first submission . Now the descrption is done , nothing to add more . i will use preview if i need to change something .
