and don't say it can be re aligned in mid game. that would require a pause. it's fine to say it's okay, but not for that reason.
pull out control, set stick in opposite of desired direction, plug back in. no pause required.
So again, this COULD be done in real life, except that it would require a pause or for you to remove the controller. Thanks to frame advance, even inserting a pause wouldn't be a big deal, but I don't think it's necessary. The point is that an N64 controller can be made to accept more than 63% tilt in real life, regardless of the fact that it would cost you some time to do it. There have been times in human history when someone, using a real N64 controller, has sent the input for 100% tilt to his N64 game. I could do it right now. I couldn't press up and down at the same time, but I could have my N64 controller send a 100% tilt. Because it isn't an input that could never be done in real life, I have no problem with it being used.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
If I understand what you mean, you're talking about the fact that re-centering will cause you to lose tilt in the opposite direction of the one that gains tilt. Point taken. But it could be re-aligned on the fly by, as you say, pausing the game. Technically we could still do that by putting L+R+Start into the emulator, but why bother? In spite of the loss of tilt in the opposite direction, you could still do this on a real console by re-aligning on the fly, if you could "overcome human limitations of skill and reflex", which is the whole point of a TAS.
It sounds like we all agree that it is physically possible to do this on a real console, and your objection, nico, is that you could never really pull it off in real life. A TAS allows you to do things that you could never really do in real life. I only have a problem with things that couldn't be done in real life, regardless of human limitations, if the hardware simply doesn't allow it (up+down).
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Heck, at the lowest level most console chess programs are retarded. I think I may have even played the Scholar's Mate once. That may be the one you're thinking of, Dacicus.
We've established that the computer can be beaten at the hardest difficulty level in very few moves if you can find the right ones to get the computer to play uncharacteristically badly, so there's your basis for a "fastest completion" run.
I'm thinking it would be nice, probably in non-battle chess in order to speed things up, to demonstrate something that chess players can really appreciate. Do something crazy, like perform the knight's tour in the endgame without checkmating or stalemating the computer. That would take a long time, but it's an example of something crazy that you would never see in real life. Do something astonishing, like sacrifice a ton of material and pull off a superb checkmate. Play a horrible opening and still win a few moves later. March your king all over the board while slowly building a mating attack on any move when you're not in check! Even better, build a mating attack on moves when you ARE in check by interposing attacking pieces.
Finally, if you're going to simply replay a classic game, pick a game that shows a lot of sacrifices, like the "Game of the Century" between Fischer and Byrne:
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. d4 O-O 5. Bf4 d5 6. Qb3 dxc4 7. Qxc4 c6 8. e4 Nbd7 9. Rd1 Nb6 10. Qc5 Bg4 11. Bg5 Na4 12. Qa3 Nxc3 13. bxc3 Nxe4 14. Bxe7 Qb6 15. Bc4 Nxc3 16. Bc5 Rfe8+ 17. Kf1 Be6 18. Bxb6 Bxc4+ 19. Kg1 Ne2+ 20. Kf1 Nxd4+ 21. Kg1 Ne2+ 22. Kf1 Nc3+ 23. Kg1 axb6 24. Qb4 Ra4 25. Qxb6 Nxd1 26. h3 Rxa2 27. Kh2 Nxf2 28. Re1 Rxe1 29. Qd8+ Bf8 30. Nxe1 Bd5 31. Nf3 Ne4 32. Qb8 b5 33. h4 h5 34. Ne5 Kg7 35. Kg1 Bc5+ 36. Kf1 Ng3+ 37. Ke1 Bb4+ 38. Kd1 Bb3+ 39. Kc1 Ne2+ 40. Kb1 Nc3+ 41. Kc1 Rc2# 0-1
Or better yet, the game many consider the greatest of all time, "Kasparov's Immortal Game" vs. Topalov at Corus 1999.
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be3 Bg7 5. Qd2 c6 6. f3 b5 7. Nge2 Nbd7 8. Bh6 Bxh6 9. Qxh6 Bb7 10. a3 e5 11. O-O-O Qe7 12. Kb1 a6 13. Nc1 O-O-O 14. Nb3 exd4 15. Rxd4 c5 16. Rd1 Nb6 17. g3 Kb8 18. Na5 Ba8 19. Bh3 d5 20. Qf4+ Ka7 21. Rhe1 d4 22. Nd5 Nbxd5 23. exd5 Qd6 24. Rxd4 cxd4 25. Re7+ Kb6 26. Qxd4+ Kxa5 27. b4+ Ka4 28. Qc3 Qxd5 29. Ra7 Bb7 30. Rxb7 Qc4 31. Qxf6 Kxa3 32. Qxa6+ Kxb4 33. c3+ Kxc3 34. Qa1+ Kd2 35. Qb2+ Kd1 36. Bf1 Rd2 37. Rd7 Rxd7 38. Bxc4 bxc4 39. Qxh8 Rd3 40. Qa8 c3 41. Qa4+ Ke1 42. f4 f5 43. Kc1 Rd2 44. Qa7 1-0
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If there is any doubt that FODA knows how to do this stuff, check his current 120 star WIP. It's a little over 2 hours, contains very few errors, and shows off just about everything you can possibly do. Now he's optimizing it and has taken off almost a minute after only 8 stars. When completed, there is no question in my mind that it will break all the records. If any experts out there want to give advice, I'm sure it will be graciously accepted. Nevertheless, this guy is a professional TAS-maker and the run is going to rock no matter what.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
From what I've understood this does not sound as "bad" as up+down/left+right, and considering that's legal I definately think this should be too.
Exactly. This requires no physical modification of an N64 controller to reproduce. It's something you can really do on a console. If we allow tricks that can only be performed on a console through physical modification of hardware, why not allow a trick that can be done with no hardware modification whatsoever?
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I considered making a Chessmaster TAS, but I don't see the point. To win as quickly as possible you have to find a line that the computer will play badly and get checkmated. It's not a true representation of the abilities of the computer. As a chess player, I would rather see someone win a really good game of chess from a complicated position than see someone exploit some gap in the computer's programming and beat it without trying. As for people who don't play chess, are they really going to watch a chess game for even 5 minutes to see the mate in 11? Will they appreciate what they've just seen enough to consider it entertaining and vote Yes? I just don't see the point.
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How is this remotely any differently than up+down or hitting a,b,a,b on every frame of a movie?
There is physically no way for the buttons of a normal unmodified controller to do that... especially in beat to the frames. TAS is all about input that is impossible to perform on a console.
It's entirely different. Up and down can never be pressed at the same on a real controller without removing the D-pad. The tilt can be adjusted on an N64 controller with no modification.
As for a,b,a,b on every frame, yes, this probably couldn't really be done, but you wouldn't have to rip open your controller to try.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
I'm swayed. This isn't the same as Up+Down. Technically you can reach 100% on a real controller by re-centering the joystick. We'll just pretend that that's what you're doing to achieve 100% tilt in TAS runs. Long live technicalities.
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Since programmers knew the limitations of the controller, I'm assuming that most games (especially games by Nintendo) already consider 63% to be the maximum tilt, so hopefully it doesn't make much difference. Normally I would vote "real", but I don't think I care enough to be upset by whatever the final decision is. Still, I think the truest way to make an N64 TAS is with an N64 controller. Adaptoids are great! Otherwise, I assume that most analog controllers will have the same physical limitations, so either approach should work if you want to stay true to the range of tilt offered by a real N64 controller.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
I don't know about y'all, but I'm using an N64 controller and an Adaptoid I bought for like, $19.95 or something. Perhaps a few of you should invest in one.
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And a Damage run is much easier then this one here.
Au contraire. Effectively using damage is far more difficult than avoiding damage. In order to figure out where taking damage can save time, you have to think up all kinds of crazy ways to take damage and try it at hundreds of locations. Emulation removes the need for reflexes, making it possible to avoid damage. Learning how to use damage properly is an art.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
And a Damage run is much easier then this one here.
Au contraire. Effectively using damage is far more difficult than avoiding damage. In order to figure out where taking damage can save time, you have to think up all kinds of crazy ways to take damage and try it at hundreds of locations. Emulation removes the need for reflexes, making it possible to avoid damage. Learning how to use damage properly is an art.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
this was much more entertaining than the currently WIP playing in the very hard mode
I disagree. The DK run uses a larger variety of moves and kept me entertained. DK even picked up and effectively used a weapon. Fox used the same move on entire groups of enemies vs. the Yoshi, Kirby and Fighting Polygon teams, and throughout the run.
I don't care if the bonus stages are skipped or completed. It's normal for bonus stages to be skipped to save time on this site. How entertaining completing the bonus stages is depends on the character used. It can range from amazing to ho-hum.
I think the set of goals that it sounds like you've settled on are good ones. Basically, keep doing what you're doing, but do it at the hardest difficulty and see if you can mix up the moves whenever possible. Fastest completion of this game is way more interesting than most fighting games because enemies don't just run out of health and fall down after some massive, repetitive combo; it's fastest to creatively throw them off the level and prevent them from getting back up.
daniayaw wrote:
MAIN focus is entertainment? lots of ppl here dont think this..
In most cases fastest is most entertaining because it requires incredible reflexes, accuracy, weapon selection, shortcuts and glitches to be used and abused. The "wow" factor comes from seeing how fast a game can be beaten. A few exceptions are made, and some genres are more entertaining with other goals, but I think most people are most wowed by a world record completion time.
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Don't forget to put general submission information in your text! I assume the emulator is FCEU; aims for fastest completion; abuses glitches; takes damage to save time; etc, but you know what happens when you assume, right?
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This is a tough call for me. Fox uses a much smaller variety of moves than DK does in Jammer01's run, though this run is significantly faster. I find it less entertaining in most levels. The final pose at the end of the vs. Kirby team was awesome, though. The battle with Metal Mario couldn't be more boring. It's an outstanding run from beginning to end, but I'm conflicted over the entertainment value.
EDIT: I'm voting No because it was played on Easy.
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Stars are for movies that are exceptional even for this site, where all movies should be exceptional compared to "regular" play - or at least that's my opinion.
And again, I don't want to say that this particular movie doesn't deserve one; I just want to point out that if you wanted to give every entertaining movie a star, you'd have to give one to pretty much every single movie that's been published here.
I never said that every entertaining movie should get a star or that entertainment was the only criteria. I gave a number of reasons. I said it was entertaining, surprising, a new record, and a Super Mario movie, among other things. In other words, there are several criteria which, collectively, require a movie to be exceptional. This movie is exceptional, therefore it gets a star.
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I've got to disagree with you there, Tub. I believe that this run is improvable. The odds of a run this long being frame perfect is pretty slim. Nevertheless, this is close enough to perfection that no one voted No or demonstrated a way that it could be improved. Furthermore, it was entertaining and surprising. It meets all of the criteria of being a star movie. If a movie can't get a star if it's still improvable, how could we ever award stars?
It's also true that there is nothing to compare this run to yet, but it IS a Super Mario run and it is played better than any existing precedent. If future N64 movies show this movie up, the bar will be raised accordingly. Until that happens, why worry about it? To deny a movie a star because someone might make a better movie of a different game later, possibly, if we're lucky, seems a strange reason to deny it a star.
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I don't see why crooked cart would be allowed here even if it did become emulated, because everything we've done here so far is completely doable within the bounds of the game, if you had amazing reflexes, whereas crooked cart not only destroys the spirit of the game, it starts treading on the shady territory of physical manipulation.
Yeah. Like being able to press up and down at the same time.
Yeah, never mind. I don't want to start that debate again. Suffice it to say that I agree that you shouldn't be able to physically manipulate the hardware.
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I didn't know if it was a useful declaration or not, but I was hoping it would at least be funny. That, or make it obvious that the thread could be closed.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.