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Bad news. D:
So I was having trouble manipulating a silver coin in 7-4 (I think I will refer to this henceforth as 2b-4, as it's the second secret "chapter 2" and 7-4 is technically inaccurate since they don't have to be done in order). There's five enemies where I could collect a silver coin; the first one required sixty one frames of manipulation out of a possible 63, the next three all had values in the 40s, and the fifth one was -eight-. Sounds great, right? Except that was a cake-throwing enemy, and I needed him to progress.
So, where next? I thought if I could save three frames on the previous level I'd be able to pick up the silver coin from the first enemy in the next and all would be well. I remembered doing something particularly unusual which on the surface appeared to save time - taking a hit to fly towards the exit of the room - but which I didn't test thoroughly. Testing alternate methods gave a whopping 19 frame saving, more than enough to pick up the first silver coin in a reasonable time (indeed, maybe too much), and possibly enough to snag one of the others instead.
So I decided to splice this improvement in to the rest of the run, rather than redoing it outright. Knowing that I wasn't going to be able to do this perfectly, I was quite prepared to spend a bit of time going through each room and moving the room entries around by a frame or two... after all, it's only one level. But when I tried to progress, I found that the game wasn't accepting my savestate... telling me it didn't match with the movie. Needless to say I was not impressed.
Confused, I decided to fast-forward the entire run from the start (something I should've done a while ago in any case just to refresh my memory - I do like to watch my TASes from start to finish every so often to make sure nothing goes wrong). After completing the first secret chapter, however, I simply re-entered the same stage I had just completed, and after a while of confused wandering found myself on a pause screen. I did this again and took a savestate closer to the point to try and work out what happened... and it only raised more questions than answers.
Here's what happened: When you reset the game it renders ten lag frames before it does anything else. For reasons unknown to me, when I first recorded that section of the run it didn't render those ten frames. As a result, everything after that point is wrong. Treasure games, panel games, silver coins... the works. Oh, and did I mention that every single room now has a new starting frame?
tl;dr: I have to redo four levels. This is actually a blessing in disguise because the alternative was not finding out until submission in which case I would have had to redo 21 levels. I'm still not happy, though.
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Gonna help where I can, but I can't promise all of it will be useful.
Kirkq wrote:
Also I've been wondering, do summons deal more damage if the character utilizing them has higher current stats? For example, if a character has all djinn set to summon, will a summon they attack with do less damage than someone who has all djinn contributing to stats?
I'm almost certain that the only two factors in the summon damage equation are elemental power and enemy HP.
Kirkq wrote:
Is there any one hit kill moves in this game? (on random encounters with special weapons or something.)
Condemn is a one-hit kill move. It's Earth type, but you need to mix it with... wind or fire, I forget, for it to be available. Basically just give Isaac various types of Djinn and see what happens.
You may also need four Djinn, but don't quote me on that (at least until I look it up).
Kirkq wrote:
I'm going to speculate that the minimal number of djinn necessary to beat the game in a timely manner is around 4-5 of each type. Flash and Granite are absolutely necessary. With 4 characters it may be feasible to get the Fusion Dragon to use weak attacks every turn. (Stat break, etc.) This depends if the attack type RNG is dependent on your attacks though, which it may or may not be.
I think that if you use any summon (which increases elemental power) then Fusion Dragon will use Break to negate it, but again, don't quote me on that. If true, though, that could be combined with the aforementioned Flash and Granite to effectively halve the amount of turns it gets - though whether that is the most efficient solution is another question entirely.
As for optimal Djinn, that's really hard to work out without a moveset in front of you. Four of each may be the best way to go about things because in many cases you will get new moves - for example, Mia only learns the venerable Wish series with four water Djinn. There's other such examples but I can't remember them all now.
Kirkq wrote:
PkGamerB beat the game in 32 youtube segments averaging 9.5-10 minutes each. He did fast forward some dialogs. Probably saving about 20 minutes worth. So I'll throw out an estimate that his run was under 6 hours.
The last segment gave his clear time as 5:12 - quite some feat, in my opinion (speaking as someone whose best time is 5:28 with 23 djinn >_> <_<). Given you lose probably half an hour on the Bane and Tonic sidequests alone... yeah, four hours seems reasonable.
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Kirkq wrote:
We will probably want to utilize sacred feathers as well. It probably cuts the step increments in half, this is easy to check.
Don't forget about the Avoid Psynergy as well (this becomes available to you as soon as you get Mia, as she comes with a Water Djinn; move it onto Garet).
Kirkq wrote:
A note about colloseum. According to pkGamerB, the time it takes for the opponent to get to the end is always the same. As long as you get to the end first, there is no reason to go out of your way to speed up the sequence.
Party members should be placed in the closest areas, and no psynergy should be used unless necessary.
There's never any need to use them; you can always win the race without Psynergy.
Kirkq wrote:
In the case of the final fight, he claims it is faster to kill yourself. (You only lose the lure cap supposedly.)
This is 100% accurate. Related to the earlier point though, you should enter the arena second on this one. This will give Navampa (?) the stronger weapon.
Kirkq wrote:
I think the real issue is how many Djinn can be skipped. In pkGamerB's run, certain Djinn are highly necessary for boss fights.
I'd have to imagine the summons are mostly the way to go. I once felled Manticore in two turns using a summon rush and then strong Psynergy, I would imagine something similar is possible for Killer Ape, Hydros Statue, Kraken and those other bosses in that part of the game.
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I haven't made any progress in a while, been focusing on real-time speedruns. However tomorrow I'm moving back to uni and won't be able to record speedruns, so expect my TASing activity to pick back up.
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Well I just watched it and I have a couple of observations:
* My gut feel is that the special stages can be faster. In particular in SS3 at the very end you turned right and then forward to collect the last two spheres, wouldn't it be quicker just to have turned left? (I admit, however, that I haven't watched Upthorn's run in a long time and so I don't know what he came up with)
* At the end of AI1 you both hit the signpost and did the Sonic-can-move-on-the-results-screen glitch, both of which cost you time. Not in-game time, but time. If that's an entertainment choice then this point is disregarded.
I don't mean to discourage you - I watched your Tails in Sonic 1 TAS and was suitably impressed (even though I'm not a great fan of just flying over levels) - because it's otherwise very well made.
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I think you'll find a TAS of the first special stage in -any- Sonic game would be pretty boring... except for Sonic 1. Maybe. Or I suppose the Saturn version of 3D Blast, if you'd never seen those levels before.
Now the last special stage, that'd be worth watching.
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I hate to mention it, folks, but 37"93 isn't even close to the real-time record. I'm not sure how much the route has changed from the video in question, but I can't imagine it'd be much.
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The speed bonus is related to your time and ring count in the following way:
The speed displayed at the end of the level is in the form xyy km/h. x is based on your time: finish under 30 seconds and x=9, under 1:00, x=8, and so on.
y is equivalent to (rings - 11) mod 100. In other words, if you finish a level with 20 rings, y will be 09, 43 rings and y will be 32, and 0 rings and y will be 89. So if you were aiming for a real time goal (not that I think this is an especially good goal in a Sonic game...) then the optimum amount of rings to complete a level with would be 11, for speed 900km/h (because you should be getting under 30 on every level).
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Sonic Chaos is such a short game (and wouldn't look especially impressive TASed) that I would recommend playing the special stages to make an interesting movie. To play all the special stages you have to pick up 100 rings on five separate levels (and the level ends when you pick up the 100th ring and moves straight into the special stage, so it would make route planning more interesting). Also, you have to play as Sonic.
I might actually watch the video and comment later >_> But as far as I know, the peel-out (up+1) is faster than the spindash.
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Main story clear!
I think you'll really enjoy chapter 5... I really hope you do anyway.
Can anyone explain what's going on in 5-1, when I drop off the owl and jump off of nothing? I sure can't.
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If it's feedback you want, feedback you shall get!
Red-Hot Ride-I had to float down slowly for the DK coin, which bugged me.
You didn't use Rambi in this level though... did you test whether he was quicker?
Squawk's Shaft- I love how the bonus stage went.
That -was- pretty epic.
Barrel Bayou- Isn't it fun abusing the controllable barrels by shooting diagonally?
This, I never knew you could do. :o I can't remember if there's any more levels with controllable barrels, but I would expect to see them used there too.
Glimmer's Galleon- Not a dark level! I was afraid at first, but then I was RELIEVED to find out I was forced to hit some anyway. By the way, this level is even worse than Lava Lagoon.
That sucks. I was hoping you'd do the whole thing blind... that would've been awesome. See: Sandopolis 2, Sonic 3 & Knuckles.
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Happy Easter everyone!
Combination of 4-4 and 4-5 being nice levels, and motivation being back up. Hooray for week-long breaks :D
Who knows, I may be done with the fifth chapter before the week is out! But after that, I won't be releasing any more until submission.
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No new WIP this time, but I felt the need to reassure everyone watching (that's right, both of you) that I haven't thrown this run away just yet. Just completed 4-3 (Down in the cellar!), hopefully the next two levels are a bit nicer to me.
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Now this is awesome news.
I'll actually watch the video to see if I can offer anything by way of improvements, but the first world is simple enough that there shouldn't be anything glaring.
EDIT: OK, a few questions.
* The obvious one: Why did you enter Kong Kollege and Funky's Flights? You don't need it for 102% if that was your rationale.
* I'm reasonably sure gliding is slower unless you need it to bounce on the goal spring - did you test whether that was faster than running or jumping?
* You jumped on an enemy in (I think) Pirate Panic which is the slowest form of movement of all, short of, well, standing still. That might have been one instance where you could have glided earlier to fall in front of the enemy, spin into it and then jump.
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On EM, did you test jumping from the top left corner to the bottom right corner of the U and then jumping out, rather than running all the way through it?
Awesome job. 8.5/9.5
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nineko wrote:
You have 4 posts, dude, you used literally half of them to say that someone is better than me. Well, thanks.
Does this mean you'll take me seriously because I have 153? If so, listen up.
nineko wrote:
Also, 2:06:91 < 2:21:18. Let's compare things in the same category.
Right. Let's compare things in the same category indeed.
2:06:91 > 1:58:77. (The Total category also adds the single lap total.)
nineko wrote:
Furthermore, I wrote this even in the submission itself: "Contains Speed/Entertainment Tradeoffs".
Right, but the only level you said might have been suboptimal was Balloon Park (which, ironically, is probably the closest to optimal of all five).
nineko wrote:
But apparently nobody ever bothered to make a serious submission here, so for now my one is the only serious effort in that direction.
While this may be true, it doesn't mean your run should be accepted for publication.
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I am still working on this! Honest!
Giant Bee clear! If it looks needlessly slow, the main factor in play is the giant bee, which will only attack on certain frames (approximately 250, or ~4 seconds, apart). From there, simple mathematics determines that there simply aren't enough frames to catch any earlier giant bee attack cycles.
I'm glad that one's over.
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Off the top of my head (I haven't played BK in many a year), isn't one of the timed games the Zubba's nest in CCW, where you can just stand in the centre with gold feathers and own in quick time?
If you could manipulate that one, 22 with one timed doesn't look so bad.
Otherwise, scouring other options... you could pick up all three jokers on the left hand side, which would be 26 with no timed and three other skips. How long each "normal" question takes (BK, Skull, Grunty) is the key to working out what is fastest, at any rate.
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As much as I enjoy seeing Sonic levels broken into itty bitty pieces, I can't really feel entertained by this one. I blame the mechanic that allows Tails to fly over levels so simply.
No fault of your own, of course. Technically it appeared very sound. I'm rating it about 7/9.
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For those of you who have waited for a continuation... that's right, both of you...
Here it is!
It only goes through 3-4 because I haven't yet built up the patience to take on the third boss, which, for the uninitiated, is basically a giant bee. And it drops (making itself vulnerable) from the air at random times. And so do its accomplices. It's not a very fun fight.
This level also requires a silver coin, and in general I just don't feel like taking on this level for a little while yet.
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Chapter 2 done!
However I have a serious question. Is it even worth me continuing?
My secret chapter run has an entertainment rating of 4, and it only lasted eight minutes. If we're honest with ourselves this is going to be towards the two hour mark, and on that basis I can't see people watching the whole run given that the same techniques will be used. What do you guys think?