This is very good thinking, actually. SDA would probably benefit from it even more (spliced segmented runs and all), but they have different standards for playback compatibility.
Since our files can't be played on any hardware devices anyway, why not progress a little further and start using things that are more convenient than the currently used methods for certain applications? I support this initiative.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I'm still waiting for an emulator that can properly record input from Cave's games. There aren't many supported, but I want to see someone get the highest possible scores for those games. >_>
I hear you. I'd very much like to know the true limits for DP, DDP, and Progear as well, and would do it myself already if FBA wasn't such a lousy rerecording tool in the first place. :(
I have a feeling that up to 800 mil can be done at DDP. Maybe even more is possible with some meticulous chain micromanagement (such as taking more expensive enemies into the chain at the earliest possible points), maybe some laser wobbling, and other kinds of optimization.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Just to make sure no-one accuses me of the wrong things (arguments like this tend to lump the opinions of everyone on one side of the fence together), I personally don't consider adelikat and mmbossman bad judges, not at all. I would just like to emphasize that any site's success is determined by its audience, not its content. So it's pleasing the audience that should be the primary objective. Correct me if I'm wrong.
As such, depriving them of the quality content despite their vocal support without a strong reason is not a good thing, no matter if you're a judge, a jury, an executor, or whoever.
Dammit wrote:
In any case, I'm unlikely to do any more of these envelope-pushing TASes.
Personally, if I were a judge, I'd rather be ashamed the situation has come to this. :|
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
To clarify this to adelikat, since he didn't seem to get what I was saying on IRC at all. And since it is highly relevant to the site, I'll post it here.
First of all, the point is not that you shouldn't accept or publish the improvements to the storybook runs. The points is that not unpublishing is the site's general policy that was made for reasons close/related to political correctness and preservation of content. However, due to the very fact that we faithfully abide by this policy, we have lots of runs considered boring (as mmbossman eloquently put it) constantly rehashed, and many new runs for new games, that are similarly-or-less boring to an audience, not published because the site has high entertainment standards and shit. You see the two policies conflicting with each other?
I won't touch the fact that 10:2 yes vote ratio is usually considered good response from the viewers. The reason adelikat gets the lash more often than Truncated is that the latter does seem to put more attention to audience reception even when he doesn't personally consider a game particularly good for TASing. I know there are numerous counterexamples to that, but seriously, personal opinion is one thing and audience's opinion is another.
Adelikat, your earlier argument I quoted on the previous page was so amazingly awful (I mean it) I didn't even know what constructive to say about it. You're basically bashing this game for the same thing present in runs of the RPG and storybook games, including those you like; for instance, DW series. Yet you were willing to accept a glitched DW3 run (10:1 yes ratio, where you were one of the yes-voters) alongside the normal run because it was "substantially different", and I'm not even going to try convincing you that two different games (NES M&M and Genesis M&M) are more different in this case than two runs of the same game. It just won't work. The fact that the author made subtitles to ease the understanding of what's going on in the run (something you supposedly care about, judging from your own words) just adds to the absurd of the situation.
The first step is not getting pissed at any criticism (not taking it personally in the first place), and instead trying to improve the situation. Nothing is perfect, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't improve at each opportunity. Clinging to all kinds of standards which have been made historically (and which may or may have not been relevant to the site's current state), for one, is not a good way to improve. Bisqwit knows it as well, but he's lenient/indecisive/unmotivated (and very polictically correct in addition to that), so the things change much slower than they perhaps should.
Now on to mmbossman's words.
mmbossman wrote:
I do try to think about the audience in general, and think of whether they will be entertained. If a run is full of action, and has some smaller errors, it will likely be accepted. If a run is mediocre on action, but is impeccably done, it will also likely be accepted. But this run, and runs like it, are boring (I also agree that the three storybook TASes you mention are boring, but take that up with whoever originally accepted them in 2004 and 2005, not me. We don't unpublish movies here, so that's a topic for a different thread, or a different PM).
This is an example of a certain past event interfering with the present, among other things.
It's obvious that any and all movies won't be received the same way by any given audience. As such, the main audience you as a judge should pay the most attention to is the one that needs this movie. Because those who doesn't need it don't have to watch it either. Think of it as a restaurant menu: there are always things you will never eat, but someone else eats that every day. The restaurant's goal is to serve their customers, so they will put that dish on the menu because there is a demand for it.
If you aren't a part of the relevant audience that would like this movie, gathering their response is the first thing you should do (as you state you do in general). However, what exactly do you need to believe that audience likes a movie beside that exact audience telling you they like a movie (which was what happened here, in particular)? This is something I don't understand and would like to have a clarification for.
mmbossman wrote:
If we accept every run that is well done from a precision standpoint, we'd get bitched at for being too lenient and decreasing the entertainment value of the site.
I do understand I haven't been registered at the site for very long, but could you please point me to the last such argument posed here?
Edit: finished the sentence I accidentally hadn't finished.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
So do people think we need three Metroid 2 runs published
Yes.
mmbossman wrote:
Currently the any% and 100% are very similar in content due to the linear nature of the game
It's not really that linear (less so than Metroid Fusion, for instance), unless you mean it in the context of getting from start to finish. The reason the two runs have not much difference timewise is that getting the auxiliary items lets you catch up significantly by the time you beat the last boss.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Might and Magic for NES looks an awful lot like this: menus, stuff I don't understand, somehow teleporting & skipping most of the game.
Yeah, unlike, uh, most RPG runs on the s… wait, nevermind.
Apparently, the NES M&M publication did a very good job of explaining what's what by embedding subtitles with relevant information into the stream. This is a highly beneficial course of action that is often overlooked here. I, for one, didn't have a single question about the run after I watched the avi.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
In terms of walking around, jumping, etc. Getting from point-to-point, there's no need/advantage to Frame Advancing to the destination over simply moving there freely with no gameplay interruptions (Slow down, Frame Advance, etc)?
Well, think of it this way. If all you're doing is holding a button down, it's all good. However, you need to be in complete control at the point when you need to release it or press another. The only way to ensure it happened on the first possible frame is getting to this point with frame advance. The most basic mistake is not doing things you're supposed to (jumping, attacking, etc.) as early as possible.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Well my first speed run is going to be Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars for the SNES console. Where would the pros and cons lie in a game of that type of 3D, RPG atmosphere (Using Frame Advance)?
I'm not really familiar with SMRPG, but generally, the things you want to look out for in an RPG game are:
1) route (determine the points you absolutely need to visit and make a point-to-point route between them ignoring anything else);
2) item set (collect only things that save more time than what's spent collecting them);
3) luck manipulation (if something useful has a non-zero chance of happening, it should always happen).
If you want to make a casual TAS, it might be a good idea to not watch the published run, and instead try to make things on your own. Then, when you're finished, you can watch it and see where and how you make mistakes and such.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
1. Of course you aren't supposed to play the game like that. Moreso, it's both easier and more effective if you do it in frame advance, rather than at very low speed. It becomes more about constructing the gameplay than actual playing; it can be hard to adjust to (and you will always want to speed it up), but after some practice, it's not that bad.
2. Bots can help mainly with luck manipulation or other things that require lots of bruteforce-like testing without clear goal or set of actions in mind. Only a handful of players use them, actually, so don't worry about that.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I think you misinterpreted FODA's message. I believe he was implying that there's no reason to compete here, because that's what SDA is for. Secret keeping is by no means required or preferred for competition; it's just one of the unwanted (in this case) personality traits that arise in certain competitive people.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
