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PLANET wrote:
Obvious Yes vote (voted earlier, just late to the party).
@davidtki: oooh, do you plan a QFG1VGA TAS? Or a different strategy in QFG1VGA any%? I didn't touch any of my runs for quite some time, but both are definitely beatable, however if there are any new strats concerning them, please do let know.
Could help with the TAS (at least I hope I could), if you're planning on it gimme a mention on Discord, thx!
@mrprmiller: maybe that's not the right place, but congratulations on such a good work in any% QFG1EGA! I presume that 1:05 will come! : ) Good luck there!
Thanks for the congrats, PLANET. 1:05 was sooooo close that time, I believe it'll happen soon. I'm just getting used to using HSH in other places. The QFG1VGA strategy would certainly use the stat glitch for the fastest Any%. I think more trouble will go into finding the right stat allocation than the actual routing. I believe as players we're using the most optimized strats for route already, barring anything new, which there really hasn't been in this game in some time.
The only *new* strategy I can remember since you were last around comes in Any% No Major Glitches, where we can throw rocks at the Kobold to stun lock him... even without Throwing skill. Magic isn't even considered in that category anymore and isn't remotely necessary - even as a Magic-User. LOL
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davidtki wrote:
Ditching Open might be possible (and I'd certainly do it for a QFG1VGA run that allows stat glitch), but there's a lot of moving parts. You need 75 lockpicking for that rock door if the luck stat is low but a quick test showed 60 lockpicking and 100 luck can do it. Plus the strength requirement on the antwerp door and the climbing requirement. You're also going to lose some time to typing out "toss knife" over "<CtrlC>open".
I can't rule it out, but there's a lot of moving parts here. You'd need an exact right combination of stats, luck and RNG to even remotely consider it possible and it's pretty much right out if you have to grind any of those stats.
Agreed on all counts. Especially on the QFG1VGA front.
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c-square wrote:
Wow! I was not expecting this. Great improvement and absolute yes vote! I tried all sorts of things to beat that frame rule, but never could get it. Glad to see you guys finally figured out a way to do it.
Because of the frame rule, I have a feeling this is now totally optimized. The only way to squeeze another second out of this would be to cut down a bunch of typing, and I can't see where that could happened.
Thanks, davidtki, you've made my day!
I agree - if there is anything else out there, it's going to break the way we look at QFG1EGA.
The *only* other thing I thought might work would be skipping Open, believe it or not. A thief with climbing can technically get over the gate on the right side behind the rock, which could skip the need to get the Open spell because throwing a dagger also can unlock Ego in the final room. It does not have a hard minimum as far as I can tell, and Luck factors in to the calculations. So, high climbing or high luck can skip Open. I don't know if it's possible to RNG manipulate that outcome, though.
EDIT: Davidtki pointed out that Open is also used for the rock to Fred's Cave. I'm not sure of the exact requirements, but it may be possible to RNG manipulate the door open with Pick Locks and high Luck as well. But that's a stretch then between Strength, Pick Locks, and Climbing. Probably *way* too far a stretch.
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I don't think it should be a surprise, but I vote yes. :D More time will certainly be coming off of QFG2, should davidtki or c-square take up the mantle. There are some neat skips.
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TheProJamer wrote:
It seems strange to me to offer such a bounty, given that this is for finding a skip that may or may not exist, and there is a requirement that it must not be a TAS-only trick. If anything, this seems like a way to drum up interest in the RTA community for the game.
Well, there are a few things I considered before writing this that might make it less strange:
1. I already offered this bounty to our RTA community.
2. I've already offered this to other RTA communities.
3. Our community is small, and the sub-section that runs the forth game is smaller still.
4. This connects to my other bounty, which means someone could in theory double-dip on bounties, increasing the reward.
5. I'm an enthusiast and sponsor all around for this series, and I'm trying to drum up TAS interest in the series.
6. TAS players tend to give more technical answers in my experience, and I want to understand the game itself better.
7. I've been trying to break this game by myself for the last 5 years actively, and over 15 years total. But I don't have TAS skills or time to learn them. I can advise (like I did with c-square in QFG1 and QFG2). I've put my time into it, I will do more, but I'd love to sponsor as much interest as I can.
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Okay - this is a separate bounty for Quest for Glory IV: Shadows of Darkness specifically.
Currently, this is the only game in the series that does not have a mega skip. We need one for it; it's been years now, so it's time.
I'm paying $250 to anyone who can break this game in a way that could be done in RTA-play. And, I'm not just leaving it with no ideas. There are a few possibilities, and I'll put them in order of most-time-saved to least.
Best Scenario: You actually start the game in the last area, and if there were a way to warp into the final room of the game (conveniently located next to the second room), that would be a stunning find. You'd still need to glitch the Staff item in somehow, which is usually found much, much later. You must touch the Staff to the crystal in the last room to end the run. This would save somewhere in the range of 25 minutes, and is practically a credits-warp.
Second Option: Find an unintended way to get the Staff. Having the Staff either as a spell or in your inventory is necessary to trigger a meeting with the game's bad guy in the forest. Collecting the rituals is pretty trivial and not that big of a time sink when you know where they are. The Staff is a colossal gatekeeper and could save 15 minutes or more of the RTA time.
Third Option: Find a way back into the Dark One's Cave before the game intends. Typically, the only way back into the Dark One's Cave (the endgame dungeon) is through a cutscene that involves Katrina and Ad Avis after you've collected the Staff, 5 Rituals, and learned the Ultimate Joke. With 5 rituals and the Staff, warping back into the Dark One's Cave would undoubtedly save time, because we don't technically need the Ultimate Joke once we're in the cave. If we're in the Cave, the dialog trees assume you know the joke already. We'd still need the staff, but we could save about 3 or so minutes or maybe much more depending on how it could be used.
Fourth Option: Find the Gypsy Skip. This is the most likely. The Gypsy Camp is usually inaccessible until Day 5; however, the doorway to Magda's room in the camp IS enterable. So, if you could find a way past the invisible wall that exists, you could enter the wagon and get the information of how to get the Staff early, and would probably save about 5 minutes of RTA time. We know this is viable because with the Debug Mode enabled we've been able to proof-of-concept this route.
Fifth Option: Find a way to trigger Igor's Disappearance before Day 5. This is a relatively new idea that would work as an alternative for the Gypsy Skip.
Sixth Option: Something we haven't thought of.
I'll be happy to explain more details if anyone is interested. This is also a valid TAS Bounty because it would undoubtedly be used in any TAS attempts at Quest for Glory 4, and see my above bounty for more details on that! There's money to be made.
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Huge fan, so huge yes. I'm thrilled to see more Sierra DOS games come through the ranks. (For the record, I'm still paying bounties on the Quest for Glory series.)
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DarkKobold wrote:
So, since you are a thief, can't you pick your nose to burn stamina, and then rest while waiting during Raiser 2? I feel like I vaguely remember doing that.
This is the NUMBER ONE QUESTION I get in running QFG2. The answer is that there is no resting. Resting is only available in the oasis, funny enough, in this game. When you type rest anywhere else, you get a general catch-all message that says it isn't a good place to rest.
Also, GOOD TO TALK WITH YOU. :D I remember messaging you quite a few years ago about your interest in QFG TASing, based on that profile piece on the main page. Interested in QFG3, 4, or 5? https://discord.gg/QwhuWWH
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c-square wrote:
Sirmola wrote:
Is transfering previous save data even allowed? The closest I can think of is the "no dirty sram" rule, but that refers to saves of the same game.
I sure hope so, as a marathon run wouldn't be possible without it!
Would it be possible to load all four DOS games into the same instance of emulation at the same time, and change to other games after each? I'm extremely unfamiliar with the limitations of the DOS emulator.
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c-square wrote:
mrprmiller wrote:
In version 1.0 of QFG5, you can technically marry 3 people thanks to timing and an exploit, which makes for some extensive planning and intended polygamy. :p
As an aside, it's interesting to see a Reverend promoting polygamy... ;)
In my defense, none of these polygonal characters are actually married in a church. ;). I have little jurisdiction.
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Poor c-square. This game is the speedrunning gem that keeps on giving. People seriously do not give this series its proper due because it LOOKS like a simple point-and-click. Even simple things like character class and beginning allocation have significant reprecussions in RTA and TAS.
A 100% run is going to take some significant planning in both QFG1 and QFG2, and those are the best defined for points. Then comes QFG4, which has a pretty solid route and little room for point discussion.
QFG3 has programming errors, and I’m interested to see how some guaranteed crashing places in RTA DOSBox work in the TAS engines.
I have no idea how we’d do QFG5, which was Windows based with Quicktime movies...
For purposes of the bounty, outside of a major-skip point-glitch, I’d be fine with max points being the definition in QFG1-4, with QFG3 being the maximum possible points due to programming errors depending on the class chosen. For QFG5, when/if that happens, it’ll almost need to be most deeds accomplished. In version 1.0 of QFG5, you can technically marry 3 people thanks to timing and an exploit, which makes for some extensive planning and intended polygamy. :p
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c-square wrote:
I think there'd have to be a discussion on the definition of 100% in this case. Is it reaching the stated max points in the game (500 in QFG II for example)? Is it accomplishing a specific list of tasks? Because of the possibility of multi-classing, the actual max points can vary.
Mrprmiller, what's the 100% criteria for an RTA?
Different for each game, but there's really no difference between multi-class and pure classes, in MOST cases. Points are dominate class specific, i.e., a thief with magic is still a thief, and a wizard with thieving is still a wizard. I'll talk about the exceptions below.
In Quest for Glory 1 EGA, it's 500 points. There's no discrepancy between 100% and max points. Of course, this is the easy one to define.
In Quest for Glory 1 VGA, we haven't really decided on an answer. There is a glitched 4 points that exist with the Detect Magic spell. Fighters and Thieves can get a max of 504 points, while Magic-Users have 500. My feelings on the topic are that max-points, with the game telling you that you are the greatest, is 100%... but that was also back when I was alone in speedrunning this game and making up the rules as I went. But strictly speaking, it should be 504 for F&T, 500 for MU.
In QFG2, I differentiate between 100% and Max%. 500 point is 100%, but it’s not technically everything. Max% is 550 points. There are 50 hidden Paladin points. The Thief is unable to get 550 because some of his class specific points disqualify him from Paladin, so Thief has no Max%. F and MU are 550. There are valid reasons to keep the two categories separate. The reasons to avoid 550 points are that you have no choice of whether you become a Paladin or not at the end of the game. A Wizard transitioning to Paladin for QFG3 is going to have a bad time, thanks to his terrible Weapon Skill in a speedrun. In the remake, you have the choice.
In QFG3, we have a SIGNIFICANT problem. Fighters can become a Paladin mid-game, which makes his potential points 513, but the game caps at 500. Technically, a Fighter is the only class that can genuinely get full points in a legitimate run without glitches.
Wizard's max points are 493. Thief is 495. These are programming errors, and weren’t caught by the devs. HOWEVER, Crow! recently discovered that you can import a character with Paladin character skills, cancel the import and then import again as a pure class that allows Wizards and Thieves to get 500. Because this requires an import file, though, it can’t be the same as a legit New Game 100%. So, unless there is a point-glitch to be discovered, 100% is F500, P497 (I think), W493, T495.
No walkthrough mention this glitch; Crow fluked into it, which is awesome! We're showing this 500-point Wizard run, which the devs and the Sierra community had no idea existed, on Sunday (Nov 5, 5:30PM EST) on the "Questing for Glory" marathon finale, on twitch.tv/rpglimitbreak
In QFG4, the game auto caps you at 500 max points, HOWEVER, Fighters can earn 501, Paladins 525, Wizards 501, and Thieves 502. The speedrun.com rules (which I wrote) technically only require 500 points, but there is discussion on this. Wizards can’t skip anything without ending at 499, so it’s a moot point there. Fighters can avoid one battle, I believe, and still make max points. Paladins have too many points to know what to do with; I’m pretty sure the Rusalka, Paladin-specific storyline solution isn’t required for 500, but I’d be upset if it wasn’t included. Thieves have some grinding to do, so good luck.
QFG5 is a total mess, through and through. We have no idea what to do with this thing. The game has SO MANY POINTS that it doesn't count. On top of that, it has an "achievements" or "deeds" list that you can check. The game caps at 1,000 points for all classes. Technically, F 1215, P 1235, W 1210, T 1165. HOWEVER, some deeds don't award point but take items off of the deeds list. Technically, you can marry two people - it doesn't award points, but it takes a deed off of the list... so does it count? Who knows?!
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Sounds good. :) Speeding up or adding skips to the encode didn't even enter into my mind; I've was too focused on my tears after years of waiting around in Raseir to think outside of the box.
This is cool. Thanks, squad!
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Being the QFG admin guy speedrun.com and the SDA holder, the use of the debug mode for the purpose of skipping ahead was my suggestion. The reason is that it to optimize (from my experience) the transition, it is necessary to stand exactly in the transition doorway during the 8 or so minutes (and the character is also hidden behind a wall and can't be seen).
The nuts and bolts of this game are that we want to make this game entertaining, and quality, and qualify for moons at the same time, and that waiting section has us both a little worried. The rest of the game is extremely technical for a text-parser optimized because of the stat system, but that section... even Corey and Lori Cole aren't crazy about it, and they made it.
It was so rough with little to do (outside of a 100% run) that the devs of the AGDI remake of QFG2 incorporated a rest system to skip the entire thing.
The wait is like a really, really rough auto-scroller - like Gradius if there was no stars, enemies, items, bullets or bosses... and each stage was 8-9 minutes long. When you arrive it is a new day in the game. After talking to a character, time jumps forward, but you still have about 3-4 minutes of standing waiting for the day to progress past "sunset" to "the night is young." The game has the ability to speed up the timer, but that 3-4 minutes is what happens when you actually do speed up the in-game day/night timer to max.
At the start of the next day, there is a cutscene that will play at a certain area, followed by another encounter which advances the clock further... but then, there's another 5 minutes of waiting for the transition to happen. And because the transition to sleeping only happens in the doorway of the inn, you must be standing there to optimize the timer.
I don't think skipping a timed event counts as enabling a higher difficulty.
A valid point, to be sure... When I think about it like that, it's a lot like waiting for Shadow in Final Fantasy 3/6... except this can't be skipped. :/ You can wait for the last four seconds or so and he will show, but you can also skip it. But, imagine if the wait was 8 minutes long, and you had no choice but to stand in one spot to maximize frames and movements for the entire wait... and the character had to be behind a wall. (Did we mention that the character isn't visible while he waits for the night transition?)
It is a design "option" to the game, i.e., a player could technically stay outside of the Inn for the entire night and grind and grind away until morning (with enough potions and water and stamina and patience) and you could skip the Inn that way. Unfortunately, that would take somewhere in the range of 25 minutes to pull off. :/
Really, it's about entertainment and quality. :D And, also the fact that every person who watches this video and is familiar with this game skips ahead in the Raseir because they know this section is coming.
EDIT FURTHER:
I like the idea of speeding up the encode at that section to warp-speed to basically show but skip that section (or providing a PSA that says "skip ahead to X:YZ" and then "skip ahead to Z:YX" for the two waiting periods. The funny thing is that this would look about 99% identical to what we're suggesting with the debug mode for that actual technical details of the TAS. :)
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Truncated wrote:
I'd like to see it, as well as QFG3, but QFG4 is the one I played the most, so that's the one I would be the most interested in seeing.
Glad to hear it, and I'd be happy to help with it as I said. In the meantime, you can QFG4 runs for Any% and 100% here: http://www.speedrun.com/user/mrprmiller
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c-square wrote:
mrprmiller wrote:
Trying to add my info the forums, regardless of how dead they may appear. I'm sure someone will TAS this fantastic game soon.
I just want to put here how glad I am that you resurrected this thread. If you hadn't, the Quest for Glory 1 TAS would not exist right now.
Maybe this can encourage others to resurrect old threads for games they're interested in. Who knows what will come of it!
It was 8 months well worth the wait. :D :D :D I'm praying like hell I don't have to wait another 8 months for the next one. :D
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c-square wrote:
Hey, mrprmiller, for a lark I decided to try fighting Fred the Troll with our beginner Magic User.
Suffice it to say, it didn't go well. Even if you dodge his swings, you still get hurt, and three hits is enough to kill. So, yep, he's can't be killed by our hero, even in a TAS.
That's what I guessed would happen. Even if you were able to interrupt the attacks of the ogre with your own attacks (like QFG1VGA), you could prevent the damage with perfect attacks. But likely, you'd never do enough damage fast enough before you ran out of stamina.
And then... you'd probably never connect a single hit with such a low Weapon Skill. Although, if you put all of your starting points into Weapon Skill, you could probably land hits... and you could build Strength enough to serious hurt him by training Strength at the rock door. The Stamina problem might still exist, but if you could land every hit for max damage... ... ...
It might be possible then.
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blahmoomoo wrote:
One question would be: how would timing work? Would beating the game be the moment that time stops or would the moment that the clear character file is created be the stopping point?
Probably as c-square said; to last input, because I'm guessing that's how TASvideos would do it for simplicity's sake.
The timing for the marathon run isn't really set in stone because there is no website that has a governing body that judges it. SDA has "no precedent for a multi-game gauntlet." Therefore, I time each individual game and add the times from first control to last action as if they were solo runs of the games, and use that as my time. At RPGLB2016, though, we jumped from game to game and kept the timer running even through the credits.
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Ferret Warlord wrote:
How would it work to run the first four while importing save files?
From a technical standpoint of loading all four games into one file for JPC-RR, I'm not sure it would. It is likely beyond the size for the HDD image, but I'm no expert on those issues. I'm more of the series adviser. :D From the standpoint of game-to-game, it would be easy to check the stats of the character at the end of the game and put a character file in the image that matches those once the route and stats have been established. I'm not THAT picky on my bounty.
From a TASvideos.org standpoint, though, that would probably be dirty and unacceptable. :/
From the routing standpoint, though, it is pretty straight forward and just requires some cleverness. :D
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Radiant wrote:
Very cool! And yes, I'd love to see a TAS of all four games in the series!
I'd love to help with that task, too. QFG4 is my favorite of the series, but we have some time before we'd get there. I'd love to see someone work on that sooner. :D From what I can see, this EXACT route would work with the Thief and Fighter with different starting stat allocation. This actually makes this a valid route for the QFG-Marathon into QFG2, because while Calm is necessary and useful in QFG2, importing your character automagically gives you the Calm spell at the start of that game if you have Magic.
Beyond that, I have no idea how QFG5 is going to work with TASing.
