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jeff_town wrote:
Instead of finding 1 seed for both games, For the 3-player version you could hit run-stop, re-seed the RNG, and run again, e.g., type TI$="xxxxxx";RUN: followed by the enter key.
Waiting through the game animations is kinda irritating for TASing. You could modify the game to remove the tile movement animation. For instance, this gets rid of the "slide chosen tile into place" animation:
.. then once you find a seed, just resync with the unmodified version.
I notice there's an option to keep the computer's tiles hidden. This might speed up the game, but there's certainly an entertainment trade-off there.
That is an interesting thought. I never thought to break the game's code from running to do that again. Let me think about that.
Thanks.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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jeff_town wrote:
Assuming you can force the value of TI used in the program at line 70, it's not hard to show all the draws that will occur using a simple BASIC program...
10 R=RND(-RND(-60)):REM assume forced TI=60
20 FORR=1TO64:DK$=DK$+CHR$(R):NEXT
30 D=64
290 REM DEAL HANDS
310 FOR I=0TO40:GOSUB 1030:PRINTT;:NEXT
999 END
1010 REM DRAW NEXT TILE
1030 X=RND(1)*D+1:DK$=LEFT$(DK$,X-1)+MID$(DK$,X+1)+MID$(DK$,X,1)
1040 T=ASC(RIGHT$(DK$,1)):D=D-1:RETURN
Here I've forced the seed to 60 and you can see that the initial draws match what is printed by the program:
That said, evaluating a seed requires looking at what the CPU will do, not just having the move sequence available.
FWIW I think the watch location for the TI(ME) value is A0/A1/A2 (24 bits): https://www.pagetable.com/c64ref/c64mem/#TIME
Thanks. It has been a while, since I've actually wrote any C64/Vic20 code. I will remember this next time.
Oh, something that you might find interesting. With all the games I've TAS for the C64, here is a list of RNG alterations that I've run up against:
*Random Inputs: Most RNG can be controlled by hitting random keys or joystick directions; thus, affecting the values picked by the Kernal's (Commodore's spelling) instruction. (Almost all Machine Language games for the Gazette; however, many commerical games don't respond this way)
*Custom RNG: Most commerical games have their own method of RNG, which random inputs don't normally affect. It is more related to circumstances and calculations based on them.
*B.A.S.I.C. RNG: Every game, until Mosaic, was easily controlled by using RND(-###). Games written in BASIC, make use of the command to determine RNG. Using this method, I can set a seed with one command.
*TI Based RNG: This method is related more to when a request is made, making it act like other consoles that I've TASed. This was very common with games like Super Metroid, where shooting on a different frame would cause drops to be different. With Mosaic, it was done once...which was disappointing, because the 2nd mode would have been much easier to manage, by delaying frames on selecting the second part.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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jeff_town wrote:
There are two related BASIC variables, TI$ (string) and TI (number).
Normally, TI counts up approximately every 1/60 second ("1 jiffy") and TI$ shows the jiffy count as HHMMSS. (1/60 second nominal regardless of PAL/NTSC)
TI is not settable, but TI$ is. TI$ is in "HHMMSS" format. Setting TI$="000001" will give TI=60, then TI=61 a short time later, then TI=62, and so on.
Consider this BASIC program:
10 FOR I = 0 to 20
20 TI$="000001":X=RND(-RND(-TI))
30 PRINT RND(1),RND(1)
40 NEXT
It will usually produce the sequence starting with .395... .0380... but will occasionally produce .538... .377... -- I think this depends on how many times the jiffy counter increments between setting TI$ and evaluating TI in the X= expression. Changing it to TI$="000002" gives a different most common outcome, etc. Under TAS conditions, of course, the result should be predictable.
I think your attempted seeding method, printing RND(-3), is NOT directly controlling the random seed, it's just adding some particular delay to run the line of BASIC code which changes TI as a side-effect. Printing RND(-4) might give different results just because it takes more or less time to print the value(?) but I don't think you get access to a wide range of seeds that way.
OTOH, running TI$="######" should let you access to at least 86400 seeds. If you also consider delaying a variable number of frames between setting TI and the RUN command you could access 59 more seeds for each of those 86400 distinct TI$ values.
It's not impossible (but not guaranteed) that there is a shorter game among all possible seeds.
Helpful references: https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/TIME$https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/TIME
Actually, because of "TI", you can push out the frame (which yeah, your method is better and you probably already know that) that I initiate that command. I had originally gone through about 100 to 150 frames of delay...before I realized that I got a decent result early on. Because the second mode of play had radically different layouts, I started to realize that the balance between the two modes was going to be hard to control. I finally realized that my earlier seed was one that I could accept. The use of that RND(-3) was an effort to use the two in combination to see if I can trick it, only to see that this effort was so much different than other games where I have controlled RNG. When i found my best result, It was a little too late for me to go back and try and sync that up...so a few frames were lost using that technique.
You are right, I didn't test all the seeds...because it would just take too long; however, if a better seed existed...it probably would have taken too long to make any difference. I had considered BOTing this, but the emulation is way too slow and I would have had to play the first mode in order to test the second mode.
Good to know that someone else in this community knows their C64 stuff!
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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Just letting you know that I will be finalizing judgement here in the next day or so.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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FYI: I'm getting close to finishing my review on this. I think I should be done this weekend.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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Twisted_Eye wrote:
okay, sound on, cause wow that's trippy as hell. Really neat game and run you've got here
Thanks. That sound is pretty weird. I'm laughing now, because I also remember your sound association with the Moon Patrol jumping. LOL
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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I'll be finalizing this submission by tomorrow.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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Putting this submission on delayed, so that I can keep up with what I'm waiting on.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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Ok. Let's check back in 2 weeks. I'll put this on Delayed.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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So are we done with everything?
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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eien86 wrote:
Hi Nymx! We've found yet a new improvement to this movie so I'll ask you to hold on judging for a bit ;)
No problem. Just let me know when you are ready. :)
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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Ok...I've given you 5 days to respond and I'm getting nothing. So here is the deal...Asumeh has mentioned a number of improvements and I can see some, but just not all. The competition is high with SMB style games and small situations become more questionable than less popular games.
Because you have not responded with an answer to these concenrs, I'm rejecting this submission.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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eien86 wrote:
nymx wrote:
If I were to play on a less difficult level, the points would obviously be less. But I must be missing something in the manual...does speed increase points?
Hey Nymx! I did some research myself, but also found this FAQ which clarifies scoring. Here are my findings:
The points and bonus obtained (e.g., by adding pipe, doing a loop, doing a crossover, etc) are independent from both the difficulty and the speed selected
The max difficulty enables a highest score indirectly: it offers more "gimmicks", like wall-holes, end pipe, pre-placed pipes, all of which increase the bonus.
The speed plays no role in score; it just makes the challenge more exciting
Thanks. That clears it up.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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If I were to play on a less difficult level, the points would obviously be less. But I must be missing something in the manual...does speed increase points?
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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I put this submission on delay at your request, maybe a month ago. it's been a while and I'm wondering if you have any improvements. If you are not making the progress that you figured by now, we can just cancel this , in lieu of a future submission.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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Ok. I have been reviewing the changes that Asumeh has mentioned. I may not see everything, but I have recognized some of them as potential improvements.
Here is what I would like to do...can anything be done in a timely manner to bring this up to speed? If not, you have the option of canceling your submission, otherwise...I am forced to reject this submission. Please let me know as soon as you can.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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What is the current status on the effort to demonstrate the improvements mentioned by Walgrey?
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Thanks. That confirms that I got the correct one loaded up last night.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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KSeptuple wrote:
Oops!
I found that this movie can be improved simply by starting from the save slot 2 instead of the save slot 1, because I can restart one less time. With this and some very minor changes (most of them are because of the difference of lag frames), it saves a huge 330 frames.
/UserFiles/Info/639074287382819909 This is the new movie. Should I cancel this submission, or just update the movie file?
No...you do not have to cancel the submission. I'll replace it. Thank you!
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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I might have missed this, but with all the conversation...was the latest movie uploaded or not?
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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zapkt wrote:
nymx wrote:
Just want to be sure, but has everything settled out? and...is the author list still valid with the most recent input file?
Settled out: yes
Authors list: the submission list matches the ltm file list. As for who can or cannot be in that list, idk? Both other authors have brought some small contribution to this. Not sure how you usually do, but I'm fine with leaving both as co-authors
Thank you.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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Just want to be sure, but has everything settled out? and...is the author list still valid with the most recent input file?
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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Thanks goes out to DrD2k9 for performing a sync test on this one. It is clear that I am having issues with some of my machines. I'm still stuck in the past, using older operating systems.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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I don't know if you are aware of the comments that are left in your submission, but we provide them upon judging. The comment below is something that you need to take in consideration, as staff would likely disable your account if you continue to submit unoptimized movies.
Please try and use all resources available to figure out how to optimize your work. This is your fourth submission and the idea of improving is not being demonstrated. We are a community that would be willing to point you in the right direction for making better TASes.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
.. then once you find a seed, just resync with the unmodified version. I notice there's an option to keep the computer's tiles hidden. This might speed up the game, but there's certainly an entertainment trade-off there.
That said, evaluating a seed requires looking at what the CPU will do, not just having the move sequence available. FWIW I think the watch location for the TI(ME) value is A0/A1/A2 (24 bits): https://www.pagetable.com/c64ref/c64mem/#TIME