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Adding to Arc's assessment.
I did a side-by-side comparison and noticed that the speedrun and this TAS don't seem to be the same. Not having played this game, I attribute this to either the game randomly going through backgrounds and bosses, or that it is just a different version. One thing to point out is that the ninja fight shows up in different orders , but they still exist. So I don't see a problem with the comparison among the RTA, as long as both runs exhibit the same content. Additionally, it seems that all the stages are on a fixed amount of scrolling time.
As Arc stated, it would be nice to have more submission notes to analyze what was done to cut time. One item that I believe could be a factor is cutting lag; however, I don't see that lag is a factor...unless a frame of it exist upon hitting or killing an enemy. If this is the case, a frame of lag in these cases could mount up to a big saving by the end...if shooting it on a different frame would actually remove it.
If this game didn't have any boss fights, I would say this autoscroller would be a trivial attempt, unless it was known that the end of each stage could be triggered quickly by killing the last seemingly scripted enemy appearance, or the aforementioned possibility of lag reduction.
Because the author takes damage during boss fights, and the fact they they are vastly superior over any human effort, I also agree that this should be accepted to the vault.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
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SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
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Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
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Mothrayas wrote:
Camera scrolling
The most important aspect of optimization in this game is actually not so much the movement of the player, as it is the movement of the camera. Obviously the two are tied together, but advancing areas or spawning bosses generally depends on the position of the camera, so making sure the camera does not lag behind at any point is of utmost importance.
Conveniently, it's rather easy to get ahead of the camera, especially when taking a turn towards a new area. If the character is ahead of the camera, the camera will keep scrolling at a consistent 2px/f pace as long as the character is facing forward or diagonally forward (with less wiggle room if facing diagonal), even if the character isn't actually moving.
In the first few levels it's most obvious that the pace of the run is more dictated by the camera than by the player character, but later levels with more enemies make it significantly harder to move on unimpeded, so there still remain lots of challenges along the way.
This was the first thing that I noticed in the encode. I was wondering why there was momentary hesitations, but this explanation settles it for me.
Mothrayas wrote:
As a reference, bosses have just 4 frames of invincibility per hit, which means that for optimization purposes, the biggest limiting factor for damaging bosses is not the invincibility time, but rather the firing delay between projectiles. However, those 4 frames of invincibility do mean that it's not possible to do multi-hits with projectiles that reach the enemy at the same time. This renders most attacks like spread shots useless, as it's simply not possible most of the time to hit different spread shots with enough time in-between.
This is unfortunate, in the sense of a grand display of ammo barrages. To make reference, The Bomb Torizo in Super Metroid is one of the first bosses that I can think of that has this problem. Even though current TASes no longer deal with this particular fight, speed runners have to remain calm and not shoot missiles as quickly as possible. The cool down in this case is not so much of a problem, as the invincibility time is more of the concern; however, other bosses don't demonstrate that issue at all...particularly Phantoon, which can take them as fast as you can deliver them.
I also discovered this recently, with a TAS that I'm currently working on, where it is possible to to hit an enemy with multiple ammunition...yet it doesn't have any collective productivity. So the challenge, as with this game, appears to be the careful timing between firing and delivery to ensure the fastest damage possible. To add complexity, different ammunition also has different delivery speeds which means you can sequence them in the right order to maximize the time spent.
Great work. With a current vote of 3 (being all yes) and always moving for constant action, this is on track for a strong and higher level of moons. Looking forward to hearing from others on this.
Yes vote.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
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SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
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Well, I saw this coming. I figured those cuts you discovered would soon come out in this one.
Nothing really to say, its all been made clear in your most recent publication. Great job...keep it up. :)
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
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SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
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It has been a pleasure to see this run in development over the past 6 months or so. Having TASed this myself on a limited basis, I can certainly appreciate the work on areas that I wasn't able to get (mainly in the first few worlds).
One of the big points I see is that the wall-jump (a humanly possible technique, yet very difficult and run killing if done in a risky situation) has certainly made a difference. Being 5 1/2 minutes faster is quite a feat...espeically since the human run is also done so well.
Having played this game myself, when it first came out, I thoroughly impressed at your work. Great job and glad to see this released.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
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SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
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Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
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wesen wrote:
CoolHandMike wrote:
"This run uses the easiest difficulty", is a point of concern.
As explained in the comments the under water boss takes 8 more hits in the hardest difficulty which was my main reason to use the easiest difficulty. I also pointed out the other differences to the hardest difficulty that I noticed in the comments. Overall it is a bit faster to use the easiest difficulty.
wesen has correctly made use of the rules. Not only is easy allowed, it goes further to explain why...which is the exact reason that wesen chose easy. It would only make the game longer, because of higher HP levels, which makes the game repetitive and slower; thus, dragging the game out and not holding the entertainment as much.
CoolHandMike wrote:
This game seems slow, but I don't know if this is optimized or not. Getting hit in the water level looks bad, but it may be faster.
I have noticed the same thing, mentioned by CoolHandMike. So, I took a look at your history and it is perfect, Your re-record count for each submission shows you are not just speeding through these difficult areas; however, I have chosen one spot to request an explanation of alternate methods used so that we can understand better, why getting hit by enemies is the fastest.
Can you please give us a review at 2:43? I'm pretty sure your response could clear up any confusion as to why we have these concerns.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
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SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
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Winslinator wrote:
You can play on the hardest loop by poking Main RAM address 71 to a value of 6 and you will start on Level 43. Similarly, poke address 6F to a value of 0-6 for the stage within the loop.
This gives me a head start, since I haven't even looked yet.
Winslinator wrote:
Side question, how would I be able to view the code for an Intellivision game like this?
Bizhawk has debugging tools to let you see the machine language that is being executed...which will be displayed as assembly. By already knowing some addresses you can discover what caused a change to that location. If it does...then it will be easy to figure out.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
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SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
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This appears to be a really good effort.
I think RetroEdit brings up a good point; however, the "baddies" are too spread apart to be able to make use of pounding the burger parts down further. On some levels, you are already walking the direction that will do so anyway, so it doesn't look to be an oversight. Waiting for them or grouping the up for a full stack to be pushed down, could take a lot more time than necessary.
I also see that you manipulate the AI correctly. My favorite version to play, growing up, was on the Colecovision. I see the same similar techniques used to do so. Although I think I remember that the speed wasn't the only thing affect...I believe the way the AI responded was different.
As for using the hardest level, I plan on looking at the code to see if the level increases afterward. Hopefully I can do that soon.
In the mean-time...Great job.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
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SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
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Hey Samsara. I actually was able to give this a small amount of time. Figured to get it out before I head to bed.
Samsara wrote:
This is noticeably suboptimal in a lot of places, and I've only watched the first stage.
The rerecord count is ridiculously low for a game like this. Piece order can be manipulated before each stage, but not in the middle of a stage, so a TAS would want to at least make sure that the piece order is suitable for a fast stage completion.
This part I completely agree with.
As for piece manipulation, its unfortunate...but I think a plan would mitigate the lack of manipulation of drops for a faster run.
Samsara wrote:
[*] Speaking of fast stage completions, this is a Puyo Puyo style game (not exactly the same, but similar enough), and yet combos aren't being used or even set up in this TAS. The game has them and accounts for them. Not only is it far more impressive to set up a massive chain in advance, but it should also be much, much faster than just going for 3-in-a-row clears over and over.
This is probably the biggest concern as well; however, there are some things that I have noticed that might keep combinations from happening so quickly. (Of course, this would probably take a number of days for me to prove, by experimenting myself on the inputs)
1. Is the TAS trying to avoid getting "bombed" by the opponent? If that is the case, then clearing 3 at a time seems to be somewhat appropriate, yet still I believe some work can help to get around this.
2. If #1 is not the case, then another speed technique would be to build up a center platform (Like the Tetris TASes do) and perform the clearing near the top of the screen.
3. My first thought that this game is a combination of Kirby's Avalanche and Tetris Attack. :)
Samsara wrote:
[*] The input looks noticeably sloppy. Autofire looks like it's being used in places just to turn pieces, leading to situations where you use 5 B presses to turn a piece twice. At the beginning of the first stage, you turn and position pieces before you start fast dropping them, which loses time, and it looks like the only reason you stopped doing that is because you started holding Down for the entirety of the rest of the stage. It looks like you just did the entire run in "real time", but at a low speed, as opposed to using frame advance or TAStudio. The menuing at the beginning is optimal at least, but the random Start presses while waiting for "PRESS START!" to appear tell me that you didn't bother trying to correct them. It's only a minor nitpick, but it still leans into the sloppiness of the input. Nearly all of your text clearing input is overshot. The last actual input of the run happens at frame 142940, but the A button continues to be held for 5 more seconds after that, not to mention the almost 2 full minutes of blank frames at the very end.
I share the same appraisal on the menuing...couldn't find a spot that made it faster. The random "Start" presses confuses me as well.
As for multiple B presses, I didn't really observe that. A and B seem to be used appropriately to rotate a piece into place. If B or A were over used, where time it takes to place the piece wasn't inhibited...then I see no problem.
Samsara wrote:
[*] This was done on the default difficulty (Monkey). Hardest difficulty should be used for a TAS like this, as it's much more impressive to see the domination of a difficult CPU opponent as opposed to an easy one. The faster drop speed on higher difficulties may even make the run shorter, since attack pieces don't drop in until a normal piece lands.
Right on! Always use Hardest level. It shows off the game with more dazzle.
Samsara wrote:
[*] On that note, the most directly comparable RTA run I could find (there's a much faster one on speedrun.com but it's on a different version of the game (Arcade), and appears to be on a different mode altogether)
I compared the TAS with this run and a unique situation occurs for the runner, as he states "I'll take that!". What happened was the run of luck of the way pieces fell on the opponent to the point where the CPU's drop couldn't advance. There was plenty of room, probably about 1/4 of the screen left. Even those this is not controllable by the player, it certainly can be done with the TAS on every round.
To sum up, going for optimization in this game seems to be a little odd...depending on what needs to occur to wipe out the opponent. The biggest issue that I see is a lack of executing a plan, which the current plan is just taking on the computer by thinking one move ahead, rather than accounting for situations to avoid opponent obstacles, setting up for combinations, and trying to push the opponent off the screen early by noting the CPU's position and circumstance. On the first round here...the strategy used push the CPU to the very last space possible, which takes a longer time...especially for the cut scene of removing all the drops.
I can only see that massive amounts of time can be cut from this...yet I see that the task to perform this would take months and months to accomplish, maybe even a year, of hard hard work.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
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Samsara wrote:
nymx wrote:
Samsara has outline a number of items that are clear red flags for optimization problems.
Would you mind taking a look at the movie yourself and verifying them? I saw you in the chat for the RTA run I linked, so I'm assuming you know enough about the game and speedrunning it to be able to confidently confirm/deny my suspicions.
Sure. I'll try and have a response by tomorrow.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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Baddap1 wrote:
This is explained on the submission as ''Door Skip Glitch'', basically that's a manipulation for the enemy to take his shoot as soon as possible to do the Glitch.
Ok...great. Now I have the association to the glitch that is being discussed. I wasn't sure what it was related to.
Thanks.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
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166 frame improvement. Very nice.
Seems like this is very well done, but at 2:15, you wander around a small bit. On the previous submission, this does not occur.
Can you give an explanation on why this was done?
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
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SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
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LucianoTheWindowsFan wrote:
LucianoTheWindowsFan wrote:
CasualPokePlayer wrote:
From movie rules:
Must be clearly definable as a game, which has achievable goals
Should of waited til 4/1.
Oh no, it is gonna be rejected, I'm gonna do a TAS of Hebereke's Popoitto.
Alright, So instead, I did a TAS of Hebereke's Popoon.
Are you telling me that you started this TAS on the 23rd (yesterday)?
Its been my experience, that TASes made so quickly will never get published. Samsara has outline a number of items that are clear red flags for optimization problems.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
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Rejected...you forgot to plug in the player 2 receiver for the super scope.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
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XTREMAL93 wrote:
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Wouldn't be faster to use the Zapper?
I tried it in start and with Zapper game uses more frames for "Fire" than B button so I decided to use regular controller. Also these screen flashings from Zapper is annoying. Let it be "non-Zapper" category
This is interesting. I suppose its use introduces lag? Or just the routine of the zapper processing the spot emitted by the TV is a bit more heavy?
GJTASer2018 wrote:
The Speedrun.com leaderboards for this game also have the regular controller as faster than Zapper, so the regular controller should be the preferred input method.
I'm a little confused by your statement. The only two runs on speedrun.com show both to be using the "Zapper". It seems that you are stating that the preferred controller to use for this TAS would be to use the "D-Pad"? If so, I agree, otherwise I disagree with the use of the zapper, according to XTREMAL93's investigation. As with any TASes...the requirement should be to use the fastest method.
...and finally for XTREMAL93:
My first thought..."This is purely an auto scroller". After comparing this to the speedruns for this game, I see now that the only time saved is at the end of each round, or a mid-way point that holds up the game for each so-called mission, mini-boss, or final boss.
Honestly, I see that most of this game is trivial...in the sense that TASing this is easy to predict the emergence of enemies. It almost seems like the patterns are scripted. The only question I have is....Are these emerging enemies a result of RNG? The re-record count seems to suggest so, but that still doesn't completely prove it.
Aside from all the above, this TAS does exhibit parts that are done extremely fast over the human runs. The difference between the RTA WR and this TAS is roughly 6 minutes.
Yes vote for separating the two so clearly.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
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tormented wrote:
Yep, there's no randomness in this game at all. All you have to do to proceed is collect enough items, which are always in the same place. Thrilling stuff.
You're right, there isn't much in this TAS that I would say is worlds apart from what the best real-time run is. In my defense, though, this isn't a hard game to optimize; 50% of the run is just walking around the map, you always have enough health to take tons of damage from enemies, and Dash himself is so stiff that you have a lot of wiggle room to control him (just look at how long he takes to start moving after a jump, or climb a ladder). If you're able to memorize what to do, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to recreate a good chunk of this run on an actual NES, though obviously stuff like pressing the select button to deplete oxygen on the first frame every time is impossible.
I should also mention that KHANanaphone, the guy who holds the real-time record for this game, has been doing speedruns of it for years and years, so he has it down to a science at this point. This is in sharp contrast to the TAS, which only has one publication. So it's one of those games where the real-time community is significantly ahead of TASVideos. Makes sense though. It sucks.
That's good enough for me.
As usually, I have a different way of voting than most people on this site. Yes vote for improved cuts over current publication.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
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SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
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A side-by-side comparison with the WR speedrun shows very little difference. It appears to be approximately 8 seconds faster, although it is hard to tell.
In your text, you mention a few time saving techniques that help out, but they are shared with the human run. The only difference I see is the ability to execute the techniques on queue.
Somethings I would ask...
RNG doesn't seem to be a factor in this game. Can you elaborate?
From the re-record count, it appears that this was only an optimized version that a human could possible achieve. What kind of experimentation did you perform to see if any more cuts could be made beyond RTA abilities?
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
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SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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First off...great job on cutting so many frames off of the previous rejected submission.
After I reviewed your encode and read the submission, it answered all the questions I had. My first thought was..."Why are you not trying for In-The-Park home runs, or even straight up home runs". It makes sense now that you have to wait on the CPU to decide what and when it will perform its pitch.
As for the work of manipulating RNG...very good job. I think with some of my current TASing, it seems that I can clearly see why so much work had to be done in order to get every pitch done with as little waste as possible.
A point that needs to be made on the previously rejected submission...you correctly started the game as the home team in order to pitch first...which saves you the time of having to play the bottom of the 9th.
Now that you have the optimization up to snuff, the vault rules allow for this game to be accepted...since it doesn't have a time limit like other sports.
Yes vote for getting it right.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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Lobsterzelda wrote:
I agree with this statement for the most part. However, there is one caveat: this movie doesn't aim to hold the moons rating of its predecessor. Rather, it aims to hold the stars rating of its predecessor! :)
Oops. I read the branches wrong then. I wanted to say Stars, because it was so good. Now I see why it was.
Again, very good effort on furthering this! :)
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
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SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
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It took me a few days to go through your submission, and cross examining with previous submissions.
To start off, the 3 different encodes were of great help in analyzing this submission. For me the best one was the "Level By Level" comparison. This gave me my favorite way of seeing the cuts.
Your attention to detail is amazing and explains very well the approach to the cuts that you have made. For this level optimization, I can see any other way around having explained all the time saves. It was a very good read.
I find it interesting how many games response so well to L+R...although so many different results. For instance, Super Metroid uses it to "Wallcheck" without loosing forward momentum, Zelda 2 uses it to increase horizontal speed, and finally here to increase vertical lift. However so slightly the increase, it made the difference in changing the scene enough to make for small to large cuts.
I also see, were applicable, that the level of entertainment was increased. One place where I smiled, was our two heroes playing "Leap Frog" on Karnath's Lair. Well done. Certainly holds its "Moons" rating.
Your work shows, especially in the re-record count. By this point, you have certainly experienced this game at a frame by frame level enough to not having experiment so much, as you did with your warpless submission. The experiences has produced a well made TAS.
Yes vote.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Skilled player
(1679)
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 815
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
nymx wrote:
The part that I have concern over, is something that I haven't heard from anybody else, not even in the submission text. At 4:17, the TASer slows down to jump multiple times against a platform. This will need explanation...otherwise, I would immediately recognize this to be unoptimal. This is possibly a trick for RNG manipulation, but as I have discovered in so many different games and situations, there has to be a way to minimize this.
This is explained in the submission text as ''Wrong Warp Glitch to Area 5''
Thanks. That was the only part that I couldn't relate in your movie to the text.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Skilled player
(1679)
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 815
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
Memory wrote:
If it doesn't count as completing the game it's not acceptable, so I'm really not sure what he's saying here.
I've been thinking a lot about this situation and it is very tough. One thought that I had on the situation is the keys are there for a reason, to get through the game. If you don't have them all, then it terminates early. Just because you didn't loose all your lives and HP, doesn't mean the game was completed successfully. So I would ask, what was the intention behind the coder of this hack? Gaming progression can come through many different challenges presented throughout a run. Perhaps this was one elements that must be achieved in order to continue on?
I am drawing a blank on other games that may have similar situations. I'm am leaning now on the side that most SMB games always saves the princess. This run doesn't do so....maybe it should follow suit in the same manner. After all, when we think of Mario...he always gets the girl at the end of the run. Isn't that what we expect?
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Skilled player
(1679)
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 815
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
Arc, once again a fine piece of work. You have an affinity for taking the hardest of tricks and using them to get maximum gains. From my observations, you didn't miss a beat. The provided run from duckfist certainly demonstrates the power of this TAS.
The balance of Health and Damage Boosting was well planned, and where HP remained, it was probably not feasible to do so. I can't see any place where you can squeeze out any more frames from that technique. This is the most abused and useful trick, which completely separates machine and man.
The usage of items and obtaining them is a fact that I will have to yield to your research...since I'm not as familiar. What looks to be an oversight, which some pointed out in the threads, was certainly thought out and well executed. As you have stated, it seems that the manipulation of RNG and other factors was among the hardest to achieve optimal times. Additionally, I only see that careful consideration was the recipe for success. Well done!
The feedback on this thread also follows suit. The overwhelming "Yes" votes support this. The constant movement and progression keeps the viewer engaged. I can only see that this movie will obtain "Moons" rating.
Great job again, and yes vote!
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Skilled player
(1679)
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 815
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
Memory wrote:
nymx wrote:
The part that I have concern over, is something that I haven't heard from anybody else, not even in the submission text. At 4:17, the TASer slows down to jump multiple times against a platform. This will need explanation...otherwise, I would immediately recognize this to be unoptimal. This is possibly a trick for RNG manipulation, but as I have discovered in so many different games and situations, there has to be a way to minimize this.
This is to manipulate Mario's position in order to perform the wrong warp, I believe.
Ok...that's good with me then. I figured that so much good work had been performed, it wouldn't be just a random oversight.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Skilled player
(1679)
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 815
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
This is an interesting category. On one side, it satisfies the condition of "Beating The Game", which is made clear by the ending, yet some parts of the game is cut. HappyLee states that it should be an any% category, based off of the stated goal of "Bad Ending", which I agree with.
One posting stated that this was an improvement over the existing publication, which I do not agree. For one, it does not collect all the keys, which "True Ending" does. This can show significant time differences between the two for routing and various other strats, thus...the current publication and this submission have two different completion goals. The true ending is met by http://tasvideos.org/1336M.html.
I am also in agreement that this movie cheats us from seeing the game in its entirety, but I don't hold to that judgement to dismiss this as another category.
On the note of excessive jumping, I do not have a problem with it as I see it only demonstrates how crazy the player can move about. Among all the posts, their seems to be division on the chosen "play around"; however, I'm not sure why Baddap1's effort is being singled out for criticism over the run of HappyLee...where I see existing play around, which is nice.
Optimization for most of the game seems to mimic the skill demonstrated by HappyLee's publication. The parts where slowness does occur, seem to be unavoidable because of the circumstances...mostly water levels. The part that I have concern over, is something that I haven't heard from anybody else, not even in the submission text. At 4:17, the TASer slows down to jump multiple times against a platform. This will need explanation...otherwise, I would immediately recognize this to be unoptimal. This is possibly a trick for RNG manipulation, but as I have discovered in so many different games and situations, there has to be a way to minimize this.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Skilled player
(1679)
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 815
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
klmz and aiqiyou, great job on this run.
I decided to analyze your submission, side-by-side with the most recent WR (7/12/2020)...which seems to have been prompted by your submission. :)
Link to video
At first glance, the TAS looks trivial. As it progressed, that point became mute. By the 7th puzzle, the strength of this TAS started to show.
Even though the goal for each puzzle appears to be the same, in regards to human runs, the way of solving each starts to divert by the 7th puzzle.
The biggest point that I can surmise about the quality of this run, is the fact that the delay in switching robots is eliminated over human capabilities. Furthermore, the use of these 3 mentioned glitches also impresses me, where time is recovered by exploiting the "free movement" supplied by one of these tricks. For instance, the "Push-in-Place" is a fascinating trick for the prevention of backtracking. For humans, I'm not so sure how viable glitches like "Stomp" glitch is for humans, but it seems to be more of a headache to plan or think about using them..in terms of RTA. This is where considerable differences are demonstrated over human capabilities and allows this TAS to "stand out".
Even though there are many different types of movements to exploit for optimization, I believe that this run is vault material...since over the past 6 days, little interest has been shown in the threads and voting also supports this. Yet! It is certainly is a dazzling puzzle game...which is a love of mine.
Yes vote.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
