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I have to ask, would it be faster to postpone the Gravity Beetle stage until after Blast Hornet and then skip the Gravity Beetle revisit?
The boxes that block the health upgrade disappear after Blast Hornet is beaten, and the Gravity weapon is only used a total of two(?) times anyway.
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1) If you rush through you will be around 16-18 when you get flammie. I had to beat a few enemies more than I'd have liked to up to then just to hit 18 for class change in the mana land.
2-4) correct
5) Well, I don't know of any alternatives to flammie for this glitch, so yes.
But how high a level you need depends on skill as well as "luck" - with AI helping and bosses not using many skills.
That's best illustrated on Bill&Ben; in the TAS they did nothing, not even split into two. In a normal fight they spam a lot of skills.
And take a good look when you buy armors or weapons; e.g. on the volcano island shopping can probably be skipped as you find a better weapon shop before the next boss anyway (in the desert or ice land).
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mastahwolf wrote:
For example is it humanly possible to perform Kevin's attack glitch?
increasing his attack is the easy part but keeping it can become complicated
Preferably control a different character, get close enough to trigger Kevin's transformation and press X fast enough that you can still call flammie. If necessary kill that first enemy, a second is there but further away so Kevin stays still transformed but your not in battle mode, call then Flammie to leave.
That will work independent of frame perfect input or not.
How to keep it, well he will lose it always on a level up IF HE IS IN HUMAN FORM.
So time his level ups so that he is in his transformed state. (at least one enemy alive)
This can be tricky with the boss fights.
For all god beasts but the moon one you can call flammie to get away before his lvl up registers. If done right, he will have 0 exp to next level and get that level up the next time you beat an enemy.
For the end dungeon... good luck with the planing required to beat the bosses AND forced fights so that you do NOT level up after beating them - you have almost no chance to keep it in that case.
No idea how to explain that better.
Other tips... hmmm... try to experiment with auto-attacking (hold down attack button) that tends to glitch nicely.
Press and hold A to attack normally, auto kicks in relatively soon so that a second attacks starts immediatly after the first, then let go and repeat.
This tends to work better with double attackers (Kevin, Hawk).
I had it once that this stuck Kevin in a state of non-stop attacking but couldn't find out how exactly that went wrong right.
Oh, and in the reverse of "how to keep Kevin's glitched attack":
early on you often do not want to have him level up in his transformed state.
If you put a point into strength while a wolf that attack bonus is lost until you re-equip his weapon or get another level up.
It's got something to do with how the wolf attack bonus is handled (the total non-wolf attack is stored somewhere else and then simply overwrites his attack when transforming back - no check if it should be updated)
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well, there were runs redone for less (i vaguely remember a submission of a mere 1 frame improvement for mario64), so... why not?
plus there's quite a long list of "small" (or not so small) improvements; i wouldn't be surprised if it's worth 4-5 minutes
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I never claimed it to be perfect or the fastest possible or anything - maybe my goals were written a bit too subtile? I don't think so.
If the re-record count bothers you, change it to 0 or something - that's about as much as I care how high that number is.
In case that wasn't clear enough: I don't care about the re-record count at all.
So far you have shown me twice pics of beating my time but not something where I could see/verify HOW that was done - why?
On the one hand you say you want to see an improved run, on the other hand you (seem to me to) withhold information - what's true now?
regarding the linked script:
I only used it against gilderb**** because it wouldn't cooperate at all - of course it helped not at all - and since it was supposed to find a more favorable rng-pattern i fail to see the need for it to display correct coordinates
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DarkMoon wrote:
bahamete wrote:
zraffleticket has claimed to trigger the game's credits using this bug, but we're all not so sure. :p
Before anyone comments on this, you should know that this glitch is incredibly time consuming. It takes approximately 20 minutes to increment your powerup status high enough to be able to produce a goal sphere.
if you got the sphere via clappin chuck, could you PI from there? or is that already too far?
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Sorry, I (still) can't read japanese and translators return only garbage...
I have a faint idea what it could be - but that didn't work so far...
Getting Hawk's the last weapon already before ghost ship looks interesting.
Apart from that I still am not sure who to take this time around as 3rd character.
only 260 frames ahead? I expected a bit more
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To me it's no bother; though ideas/suggestions/whatever for improveable parts come too late for this TAS they are not too late for the V2 - the more input there is the better it can become.
Regarding lvl up glitch - I only discovered a few way less than 100% sure methods to trigger it. Who originally discovered it I can't tell; I've seen it in the SDA-run-in-progress but also on some SD3 related message boards, faqs and/or other documents.
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neo_omegon wrote:
Glitched ending is this.
ok, that's... sub-optimal; personally I'd say such a glitched up mess is ok/good if the TASer is responsible (and it has a non-negative impact on speed) - not so much if it comes from a "bad emulator choice".
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neo_omegon wrote:
Weapon/Armor Seeds (W/A Seeds) are manipulatable. One W/A Seed is equal to two other seeds except ??? Seeds. When you seed one W/A Seed the RNG changes. When you seed two other seeds, the RNG changes in the same amount. The RNG is manipulatable by screen transitions in Flame Valley, but I doubt if the weapon from the seed is useful because the weapon sold at Pedan is as strong. Concerning this issue in the run, there is no problem.
Ok, I should have clarified that more, something like "not manipulatable by things that are reasonably within my reach".
Flame Valley - it's not the screen transitions but the animation where half the screen gets drown in flames.
Details aside, it doesn't matter - Hawk is mostly used to manipulate the AI in boss fights, out of them (at least after Pedan) a better weapon would not reduce the needed number of hits to bring an enemy down.
conqueran wrote:
If someone wants to post a better version let em do it.
There is no "if?", just a "when?". :P
conqueran wrote:
Edit: Do I have to have the title lurker lol?
You lose that title after making 5 posts, I think.
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I know the first and biggest script use was over 100k re-records alone against gilderb**** (he didn't want to cooperate at all, and my stop condition was bugged >_>), but don't ask me for the exact amount; for only a select few other ones I had maybe a couple of thousand, maybe another 15-20k total. I mostly used the script against "brick wall" moments where my manual tricks all failed.
Though that may seem low in total then I often made a backup and tried some experiments on a separate file so that those often don't appear in the total.
As for the Booskaboo route:
submitted run hits the beach on first trip at ~350480
other route ~350340
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hmmm.... if I understand it right, he basically wants me to "manually" remove the number of re-records added by any script?
but wouldn't *manually* changing the re-record count make it even more senseless?
I mean if the re-record count were to be altered to a "more fitting" number, why even let the emulator count at all? It would become pointless imo.
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neo_omegon wrote:
And which emulator version should be used, v1.43, v1.51, or later?
The way I understood it, it's usually preferable to use the newest version, especially if it emulates closer to the original experience.
Active and Battle Speed might be changed some times to manipulate certain patterns , e.g. make your instant kills go off before the enemy moves or maybe even force enemies to lose turns by "overwriting" their actions (dunno, haven't tried manipulating this game yet).
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neo_omegon wrote:
Besides, adding re-recording counts by BOT are not permitted, though, this was added.
If by bot you mean lua script, I only used it quite a few times to try and get some luck manipulation done - a few other TASes afaik did the same/similar, so I don't understand the problem.
neo_omegon wrote:
There are bunch of improvements, which are not only pixel improvements but also route itself, which even ordinary players do not take, not to mention speedrunner in Japan. For instance, I linked one of RTA’s URL, played by cello. If you watch it carefully, you will notice one of these improvements. There are also some useful techniques in Trangix’s old WIP. And if you watch Kevin’s Atk., you will notice another improvement.
Could you kindly tell me which part(s) you mean? I watched that some time ago and probably missed what you mean.
As for Kevin's attack - I'm well aware that I did one repetition "too much"; but at that time I was 100% sure I wouldn't reach Bigieu at night time
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alternate finish without 2nd boss phaseLink to video
notes/ideas for v2 (if I or someone else ever bothers to):
-different 3rd character; Riesz offers almost nothing, probably either Duran for more attack at "no cost" or Charlotte to skip one backflash; if Charlotte never buy her weapons, or at least rarely - maybe only Dwarven, Rolante's and Elven weapon
-alternatively choose a different route (though then it wouldn't be "hardest" difficulty?)
-get the moon coin during the revisit of the forest when Kevin onehits the enemies instead of wasting time on the first visit
-one atk-up for Hawk against FMH/none for him against Dolan
-no CC for Kevin neither get the last weapon for him
-better exp/lvl-up management
-more Start/Select/L/R-abuse
-when lvling up the not-played character switch to it to reduce loading time
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FractalFusion wrote:
Sorry for the late reply... again. Real life calls for my attention, often.
Just like mine :P
FractalFusion wrote:
The other spot is the end, where you release control long before the final boss is defeated (in fact, before the second last form is defeated) and let the AI do the work. I guess an upside is that it is radically different from the rest of the action, but it still seems like a cheap trick, especially since it relies on the AI as a crutch.
Archdemon has about 8k health left, the AI needs for that little bit as long as a TAS for the other ~45k - it was pointed out that that would show a nice contrast between what is normal and what is possible.
Technically it's possible to defeat Archie before his second form, though then it comes down to real time vs input time - I'd say a matter of taste.
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FractalFusion wrote:
I noticed that player characters often walk around in combat stance when enemies are nearby. I'm guessing this is part of the battle system and is unavoidable.
Depending on how specific you want it:
characters can basically be in two "modes": in combat or out of it.
The difference is mostly whether I can do normal attacks and techs or speak to npcs/events and run. The default when entering a map is out of combat mode. Characters switch to combat mode when they get "too close" to any enemy; this can be very slightly delayed by not running during a certain frame window - if done right I can run about two steps more, not much but better than nothing.
Or in short: yes.
Heisanevilgenius wrote:
Do you use both controller 1 and 2 input or do you just control player 1 and manipulate player 2's AI?
Both.
Most of the time I use two controller for Hawk+Kevin and let Riesz do what I need, other times I switch to Riesz+Hawk or Kevin depending on who can help me more. (against under-leveled victims Kevin is useless thanks to his transformation sequence - e.g. before getting flammie)
In very rare cases I only have one character active since AI characters actually cheat the controls - they can always run.
Ofc at the end of the last boss I only control Riesz (or none at all) :P
Derakon wrote:
When you compare the TAS to a normal run of the game, there's threefour major things the TAS does to be faster: it moves through monster zones quickly, it manipulates bosses to do as little as possible, manipulates attacks to miss as little as possible, and it glitches the hell out of Kevin's attack power.
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Just remembered - if we do not have Charlie we get an additional dialog with here right after visiting the priest of wendel where she wants to come with us and we don't let her, though if she is chosen we instead get two dialogs were she temporally leaves and then joines again around that time as well.
Another additional scene:
if Charlie is with us, Duran frees the the party from the prison - if we then board the ship we get another minor dialog where we ask the captain to wait for him, and then don't - heh, sounds very TAS-like^^
As for getting her for the first boss - that would actually slow the fight down, because character change mechanics are worse in a full party then with only two; compare in the current run the fight vs Gorva where I can abuse start/select like it was nothing, and everywhere else (full party) I almost always get a "busy sign" from the game...
attack difference is about 10 frames each, basically doubled because of delayed running time.
edit:
Charlie has one nice glitch to her; I can skip getting her back in the party right after talking with the priest, but then I can't enter the Corobokkel Village as she doesn't register under the hammer effect, and nothing to say about the resulting ghost ship game crash
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Derakon wrote:
Thanks for the explanations.
Regarding Carly, obviously you aren't going to redo the run for that. I meant that more as something to consider if anyone ever felt like making a v2 of the run. Sorry, I should have clarified.
to be honest, I plan to do a V2, but probably not before next year - the third character is one of my main concerns since noone offers a significant advantage so far
I already know enough small stuff to save 2 minutes without really trying, so there's already something
what me bugs the most:
I didn't manage to paint archdemon black, literally...
while trying to end the input early I managed to manipulate that Kevin uses a tech on archie in the middle of his dying animation, so that the second explosion is skipped and archie remains black. however he'd then always wipe the floor with the party at ~4k hp left :'(
would it make sense to go a different route - e.g. Charlie, Kevin, Hawk - as in for a different category? seeing how this changes the second last dungeon and 6 bosses...
edit:
another smallish note against Charlie - she learns some useless spells; getting any spells delays the game a few frames
pics:
dunno, got some other favorites
angry gilder - frame 457955
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/687/seikendensetsu3j357955.png/][/URL]
ups, wrong class change!? - frame 514950
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/seikendensetsu3j514950.gif/][/URL]
saint kevin - frame 629249
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/seikendensetsu3j629249.png/][/URL]
skipping his turn - frame 736046
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/821/seikendensetsu3j736046.png/][/URL]
nomnomnom - frame 407536
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/seikendensetsu3j407536.png/][/URL]
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* Why not take Carly instead of Lise or Duran? That would save you one flashback, which might make up for her decreased damage potential.
Well, if there's a half-year difference between making the error and realizing it, would you restart from scratch?
As written somewhere in the submission wall of text, initially Riesz should class change later on and make use of her decent atk and def-down; this ofc doesn't work when going "all-out" (literally in the case of AI >_>), -20% def isn't noteable for Kevin during the GB phase so it wasn't needed there either; after GBs Hawk already has his def down, so yes taking Riesz was a waste.
Or maybe not, after Gildervine there are three instances where we go through old regions with relatively underleveled enemies;
-on the way to flammie
-wind god beast
-earth god beast/field close by forcena
Riesz can onehit most of them, but only very close - taking Charlie would force me to attack with Hawk there, who has a slightly longer attack.
I recall there being an additional cutscene if you have Charlie in your party (I think it was right after trying to leave Maya for the first time, where we get told that the priest from wendel has fallen ill; or it was during the lampflower forest where she tells us how to get through the forest)
* You push around one of the townspeople in Astoria before talking to her. Reason?
Waiting for the game to load the bgm, can't talk to npcs before that; if I tried to, I'd still have to wait until the game has loaded everything before it even considers opening the dialog. So I put her into a position closer to the road.
* I don't suppose you did any comparisons of chest-opening animations? It looks to me like Lise's animation is shorter than Hawk's.
Last time I checked it was the same as with Duran's supposedly longer pauses during attacks - psychological effects due to how elaborate the animations are.
Otherwise: luck difference.
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Was it meant that way? (just as a test up to frame 7800 - I have no idea how to do overly complex stuff with lua)
local boxX=10
local boxY=180
local bossX=150
local bossY=100
local fc=0
local color=0xffff20ff
local colr2=0xffffffff
function displaytxt(txtstart,txtdur,name,message)
if fc >= txtstart and fc <txtstart>= txtstart and fc < txtstart+txtdur then
gui.text(boxX,boxY-8,name,color)
gui.text(boxX,boxY,message,colr2)
gui.text(boxX,boxY+8,name2,color)
gui.text(boxX,boxY+16,message2,colr2)
end
end
while true do
fc=movie.framecount()
if fc < 100000 then
displaytxt(100,600,"","Subtitles heavily inspired\nfrom the english translation\nby LNF Translations, Neill Corlett, SoM2Freak.")
displaytxt(850,130,"","Kevin chosen...\ngame declared... won...\nplease wait while we finish:\n3:25h left")
displaytxt(2700,510,"","Wherever there's light,\nthere'S shadow\nLiving in that shadow\nis the Navarre thieves guild.")
displaytxt(3320,90,"Hawk","I'm going in...")
displaytxt(4820,70,"Hawk","Heh, that was too easy.")
displaytxt(4890,30,"Rich Man","Th-thief! My money!!")
disdualtxt(4920,100,"Rich Man","Th-thief! My money!!","Hawk","Oh, you're awake!\nSo let me tell you something interesting.")
displaytxt(5020,105,"Hawk","Ever heard \"easy come, easy go\"?\nIt seems like you stepped on a few toes to get all this money.\nAnd they didn't like it.\nSo I hope now you can better feel how they did.")
disdualtxt(5125,120,"Rich Man","I'm being lectured by a THIEF!?","Hawk","It takes one to know one, later!")
displaytxt(5335,90,"Hawk","Start working hard.")
displaytxt(6760,640,"","Often called the \"Desert Storm\",\nthe Navarre Thieves Guild lived\nin a secluded desert fortress.")
disdualtxt(7760,110,"Hawk","The raid went well.","Flamekhan","So it did... good work.")
elseif fc < 200000 then
--plan to divide movie into multiple 100k frame segments to slightly lessen if-calls
end
snes9x.frameadvance()
end
is there an option to change font/size for lua text?
[/URL][URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/15975.png/]
[/URL][URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/85/32664.png/]
[/URL]
i sort of had a good start, then somehow lost 50-ish frames between eagle and and leaving town...
will be fun to figure that out
[/URL]
ups, wrong class change!? - frame 514950
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/seikendensetsu3j514950.gif/]
[/URL]
saint kevin - frame 629249
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/seikendensetsu3j629249.png/]
[/URL]
skipping his turn - frame 736046
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/821/seikendensetsu3j736046.png/]
[/URL]
nomnomnom - frame 407536
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/seikendensetsu3j407536.png/]
[/URL]
