Posts for raikerz

Posted: 1/16/2013 6:43 PM
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raikerz
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Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 14
Location: USA
Like the update, I see everyone is pointing out most of my little nitpicking thoughts so I'll just post the two things I have: 1) In 1-1 you might want to test your 2nd and 3rd coins again, if I remember correctly waiting for the pipe is actually faster then collecting the third coin first. Retest it, I know I found it weird but it came out faster for real time, not sure if TAS magic would change it. 2) Rog got the 1-2 block clip at full speed I believe, so it should be possible and would save like, half a second, but its worthwhile. Check out ewallertv's videos on twitch he did a lot of NSMBW 100% runs, we routed out A LOT so we think we have what should be the best route. You do want to take the cannon in world 1 first, and world 5's either when you visit there a 2nd time or right away. This saves time in world 1, 2, 3, 5 and 7, because of a small cutscene you can skip if the airship moves on. Something to remember about world 5 is the vines, ewaller and myself spent quite a bit trying to figure out the best way through world 5 without getting blocked by vines, TAS magic though can probably fix any vine problems and skip almost all the enemies without visiting star houses (Only one that is unconfirmed for skip is the first P Plant in world 5 without a death/revisit). Unless you can skip that first plant I think you'd want to return to world 1 and save world 5 for when you get a star, but I'll leave the final route to you if you think it'd be better to skip the star, a star house star should save a few seconds.
Posted: 9/23/2012 5:42 PM
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raikerz
Experienced Forum User
Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 14
Location: USA
I did further testing: Kill goomba two at 498, enter the end pipe at 411 kill parakoopa at 408, flag at 407. This doesn't change the first 2 movements for him, the third still has about a 50-50 chance of him going left instead of down. Do you think coin collection or input changes it? Manipulating this in real time doesn't seem plausible, there is something missing for behavior manipulation, I think since real time behavior manipulation isn't going well I won't be able to do it consistently enough for now. Don't stress the IL's they'd be nice but I'm more concerned with Warpless, and the route is slightly different there now.
Posted: 9/21/2012 2:20 PM
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raikerz
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Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 14
Location: USA
For 5-3 and 8-2 I'd mostly just want to see a TAS run because I feel my times (442 and 422 respectively) could be improved. 5-3 has a propeller all the way through, and 8-2 uses regular (small) Mario all the way through (damage boosts in 8-1 lose the propeller). 5-3 is a new level for me, since for over a year I was using SDA's segmented route and when your bad at the game (like when I started) 5-2 ends up being faster because its easier to do. I just want to know if there is a noticeable improvement over my times for those levels, a 1 igs improvement or so doesn't really bother me, but if you can get 3 or more then obviously I need to improve it before my next attempts. 5-T is more of a theory, I can make it to the big door at 546 on average I believe 548 is possible, but the big thing is, can I get there a cycle earlier? I've gotten really close but never managed to get the early cycle, I figured if it's possible a TAS could do it and I could see where I need to execute and if I could get it in a run, that would be 5-10 seconds saved. For the kill times no it wasn't, the second goomba always had the same time, but not the parakoopa. I'll run some more tests and enter pipes/hit enemies at the same time, see if that consistently manipulates him and get back to you on it. Ahh so the desyncs only end up happening in specific spots and it just causes problems for a full run and not level-by-level? I really don't know all I got was "game desyncs, can't do the run" so just going with after 1-2 the game is too annoying to bother with :P
Posted: 9/21/2012 5:09 AM
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raikerz
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Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 14
Location: USA
I've done a little testing myself and I have come up with: Yes there are other factors involved. :( It would be nice to know any other triggers so I can know if its possible for me to manipulate them. The key being can I manipulate w/e triggers there are in 1-4. I did a few runs, and I found that 2 kills (second goomba, final Parakoopa) and a 407 got the Overworld to go from bottom left, to top left, to top right. But it wasn't guaranteed to manipulate it back to top left so I ended up with a 50-50 chance of it attacking Mario. I don't have a major update from that, the World 5 overworld monster is still up for a manipulated dodge. The only current way to skip it would be two deaths in 5-1 to manipulate the vines, and that comes out to something like 30 seconds in deaths and 12 seconds to get the propeller from the roulette in 5-3, to cut out a 25 second fight. An alternate to that would be getting a star from world 1 mushroom house, an ideal run through that is 40-60 seconds, again to cut out a 25 second fight, but the star also lasts through the first six bramballs, which currently I need to pause for 3 of those to not lose the propeller. Three levels I'd like to see a TAS of are 5-3, 5-T and 8-2, because I don't think my current strategies for them are really the best for each level, but since you have desync issues I'm not really expecting anything. I suppose I'll also need to time how much time it takes for a mushroom house in world 1 to pay out 1 star, and then compare that to how much time the Plant actually takes and how much time you could potentially save in 5-3 by being able to star through the first 6 bramballs, instead of pausing for the 1st, 4th and 6th. A straight up skip would of course be nicer... but we can't have everything, and I used to think 5-2 was faster then 5-3, so obviously I should re-test a few things in world 5.
Posted: 9/21/2012 4:22 AM
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raikerz
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Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 14
Location: USA
Any chance for a video WIP after you guys get caught up to SSL? Or is that hoping for too much? Really nice work though, all hyped up and everything to see the new 120 TAS :D As I'm sure others are.
Posted: 9/19/2012 3:20 PM
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raikerz
Experienced Forum User
Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 14
Location: USA
If you mean for the world 5 skip, the problem with it would be you need to manipulate it to be in the middle after 5-1, then head the opposite direction Mario goes when he enters the zone, then to bob when Mario moves to the middle to skip it without a death. The vines will always block the upper and lower path after 5-1 with no deaths, and I don't think I've ever seen a bob (when the plant just goes up and down without changing position) before beating 5-T, and even then I can't recall if it was before or after 5-C was beaten. If you meant consistency on times, I'm fairly consistent, but human error makes it a little annoying to say I'd always get the same times, but generally I'm always within a second or two of them. The real kicker is enemies, I'll have to learn them a bit better, I think there are a few enemies I always specifically kill, and then others that I sometimes kill. For now I'll stick with just trying to get a run that is deathless and actually nails all of the major speed tricks, but this should really be looked into for the run, while world 3 and the second and third of 5's overworld monsters will remain just using a star, world 1 and 4's overworld monsters only end up losing time, if we can manipulate them out of the way, we need to learn how. If you learn anything else that would help, but my major questions are: Do enemy kills throughout the world count? (Like would kills in 1-1 and 1-2 make a noticeable difference?) Are all enemies equal? (Like Hammer Bros/Koopa/Goomba?) Do the kills transfer over worlds (for any% mostly)? Also does that mean the pattern is set once you reach the overworld (Like will the monster always use the same pattern once your in the overworld and in his zone?) or are only a few moves set? If you find another trigger that would be nice, but the big thing is can world 5's be skipped deathless? If you can manipulate it in a TAS then I guess its time for me to learn it. That would put a sub 25 easily in reach. If you can't manipulate it in a TAS then I wont even bother, thanks for helping with this, again.
Posted: 9/19/2012 4:56 AM
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raikerz
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Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 14
Location: USA
Goomba is the only World 1 Overworld Monster. The pattern I replicated was after 1-T he'd start in the bottom right and move left, to the bottom left corner (Right next to the 1-4 path). Then after I beat 1-4 he'd go to the top left corner, and when Mario stepped into the overworld zone he'd jump right back. The stages I visited were 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-Star House, 1-Tower, 1-4, Monster Zone. I don't remember scores/times on a run-by-run basis but I can give you averages, nor do I have a video, I deleted my last run to get an IL run for a guide. 1-1: 453/454 | 4000/8000 flag average. Typically I end under 10k but if I hit 8k its around 15k points. 1-2: 454 | 100 flag average. Typically 75k points. <- last stage I generally know my ending stage points. 1-3: 450/451 | 100 flag average.0 Star House: I've been using the 3 second entrance since this stage is short enough for the Wii to fully load, runs before today didn't generally use it. 1-T: 539 | Tower fight. 1-4: Lately my average has been 414 with 100 point flag, one run was 413 with 100 point flag though. I'm sorry I can't remember points at least on average, but I generally check on the timer to compare to my best time. I wish I could show you videos, but the 1:40 I have on youtube shows my average 1-1, 1-2, 1-T, and 1-4; Today I didn't use Yoshi as a safety, he's only a second or two slower, idk if that changes anything. Thats all the information I have on me, if I get an average run soon that has the same thing I'll show you. No matter whether I somehow get this same streak of luck or not the big questions that would be nice to be answered are: Is it possible to manipulate the behavior of overworld monsters? If so what is it based on? If it turns out we can manipulate them I guess ewaller and myself need to work out what we need, but the big thing we need is the trigger. The only big one I'd like you to work out is world 5's first Plant, is it possible to get past it in an any% run without a death that would be amazing, but I've never even seen anything that would make me think it's possible to get past it without manipulating the vines with a death.
Posted: 9/18/2012 5:53 PM
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raikerz
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Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 14
Location: USA
So I'm back Rog, was wondering if you could figure something out, if not we'll just stick with RNG and I have the worst luck. I was doing some warpless attempts today and EVERY time I reached the goomba it used the same pattern to hit me. This happened in all 10 attempts that got past the tower. Since it was more then a few times, and I know I mostly follow the same pattern (Hell, I struggle to do 1-3 without a hit without using my triple jumps) for all levels I wanted to know, can Overworld Monsters in this game be manipulated? Its not a shock to me in races/runs to get hit by overworld monsters and I just roll with it currently, there is a lot of time to save in my best warpless run without resorting to skipping the 2 overworld monsters that we know are possible. But the same pattern 10 times is a little ridiculous and statistically if it was RNG I should've gotten a goomba skip at least once in 10 tries, let alone a different pattern. I guess we're wondering if its possible to manipulate overworld enemy behavior? If it is then how? Is it based on points, timer, frames? maybe stages (all my runs went to the star house)? This would be nice to know, if we could cut out a little bit of randomness I'm sure manipulating world 4's would be possible, and world 1's wouldn't be far-fetched either. If by some miracle the first plant zone in world 5 can be avoided without a death that would save ~30 seconds in an any%, though I still think that one is unavoidable, it would require at least 1 head bob out of the plant and I think you need to beat the tower or the castle to get them to start that action. If you can't get the rom to work long enough we understand, right now we're taking it as really amazing RNG that I got the same pattern, ewaller's guess was timer, and I think it's point total, but neither of us can really test out EVERY possibility and find out if we are right or wrong, if we can narrow it down that'd be nice, or if its truly random and my luck is just that bad it'd be nice to know.
Posted: 9/10/2012 4:15 AM
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raikerz
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Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 14
Location: USA
Ahh, no rush on timing it, unless we get a strong setup or at least find out if we aren't required to place Mario in a specific location under the bricks I wont bother, I'd like to think it would save a second or two, but if you can't break 2 bricks consistently, or if you clip a ledge and end up losing momentum anyway then I guess it wouldn't save much time, if any. Post in this thread if you find anything, I tend to check every once in awhile. Thanks for all your help with this trick, if ewaller or myself find anything interesting we'll try to post it here, or we'll remember the next time we need help like this.
Posted: 9/10/2012 3:39 AM
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raikerz
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Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 14
Location: USA
Hmmm I'm guessing the 4th picture is where you ended up jumping? If that's the case then our setup is right... We had it halfway between being Mario under the block and under air and the 4th picture shows that. Can the trick be done with Mario completely under a brick? Or is it a requirement to have him half under the brick half under air? I guess I need to know those, currently if I need to get Mario halfway under a brick + air, then do a 1 frame trick it just isn't feasible to do in a full run non TAS at the moment. My run has ~ 15-20 seconds of mistakes I KNOW I can fix, I don't need a 1 frame trick on the level that already kills most of my runs. I guess something we should know is how much time does this potentially save? Does it save any or are we just kidding ourselves? Could you put up with the desync enough to get a 1-2 with the trick down rog? The earliest I got for the intro was right when the black screen started, even after everyone was off screen it didn't save right away, I think I timed it and ended up with a large enough time delay that it wasn't worth it, but I forget the actual time results, I may end up looking into it, but for now I'm sticking with what I remember on that front, if ewaller wants he can look into it though.
Posted: 9/10/2012 2:55 AM
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raikerz
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Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 14
Location: USA
For the above/below positioning I asked because we had a specific setup, but from your picture it looks like it doesn't matter, as long as you have one above you and time it right you'll break what's below you. This is pretty sweet, last question though, when doing it at full speed did you hit a brick that you didn't break on the way down? Losing momentum there would suck, probably still be faster, but I'm curious. Sucks about the desync, hopefully they fix it soon, I'd like to see a TAS of this game mostly because I'm sure my time could be improved vastly. On the plus side maybe I will end up beating the TAS to a few times while you guys have desync problems :D I did several tests with the intro skip, sadly the earliest I could get the autosave was right when the screen turns black after they all run off the screen, resetting and getting back into the game ended up taking a little longer then waiting for me. The wii I tested this on though is extremely old I got it right after the Wii was released, so maybe a newer one would load everything faster? Idk if it would be extreme enough to do so. That's about what we thought with the level loads, the shorter levels have less to load so it completes before the intro finishes, regular stages have more to load so we can't do anything until it finishes, maybe ewaller can test the hdd thing, I sure cant :\ Like I said earlier, based on the picture it looks like the over/under positioning doesn't matter, as long as there is a block above and below the trick will work, I'll have to put off any% runs for a bit as I try to get familiar with the timing here, lots of new little things to work on for me, we'll try to remember to post our finds here for you so that the any% run can be done when you guys can get the problems to stop :D
Posted: 9/10/2012 2:01 AM
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raikerz
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Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 14
Location: USA
Does the positioning of the blocks above/below you matter at all? Also thank you for the prompt reply, looks like ewaller and myself have something "fun" to look into. Not sure if you've gone this far into testing, but we recently (a couple weeks back) found that 5-3 is about 3 seconds faster then 5-2, I'm not sure if TAS magic could change that, but that's a relatively new thing we found that changes any%. Also a few other things you pointed out that I tested: The intro reset for an RTA does not appear to save time, maybe with a better Wii it would, but when I tested it I could only get it to be a couple of seconds slower then just waiting. Another thing is the level starts, We cannot do the ~3 second level intro that the TAS has for normal levels, only for cannon/mushroom houses/overworld monsters. I think this has to do with processing power, but neither ewaller nor I could get the intro shorter for regular levels, regardless thanks for that my any% currently can save time with the piranha plant and 5-Cannon.
Posted: 9/9/2012 11:43 PM
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raikerz
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Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 14
Location: USA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESqu5Fx77Ag&feature=g-u-u At about 48 seconds into this video Ewaller got a glitch to happen that broke the blocks below Mario in 1-2, seemingly without a groundpound. Currently the both of us can replicate it, but we don't know what the glitch is really doing. Our setup requires us to stop, in a specific place, before jumping and letting go of duck at the same time. I guess the major questions we have are: Does positioning under the blocks matter? Currently we need half a block half air. Does timing matter? Do we need to release duck and jump at the same time, or is there something else? And most importantly can this be done at full speed(As in, no stopping like we currently need to)? We both really just want to know how to do it, but knowing more about it wouldn't hurt. If it can be done at full speed I'm sure Rog can use it in the TAS too.
Posted: 4/13/2012 7:37 PM
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raikerz
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Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 14
Location: USA
I have two videos if anyone is still planning one of these. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3BGl3v3tts This one is an IL of 1-1 using Starman and Penguin suit. The penguin suit seems to be as fast or just slightly slower then the starman when you first start out, and conserves momentum from hills when jumping. I don't know how much I slow down because my jumps weren't all perfect but even off the ice if you jump the first possible frame you can probably keep starman speeds just using the penguin suit through most levels. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcXd4hcd9PY This video is my current record for any%. From Mario control to Bowser's switch it is 25:31. I had a shaky start but ended fine. I'm re-working parts of world 8 for my improvement since I found a trick in 8-2 my top time there has increased from 817 to 822. I believe it is impossible to skip the plant in world 5 without dying or having passed it already. The vines have a set pattern and the plant moves when you go into its area. If you can find a way to manipulate it into a skip I'd love to see though. There are more things on my channel, currently I'm working on an improvement to my any% cannonless and working on a set of videos for IL runs through the levels. For 100% I have a 2-6 video that gets all the star coins while skipping the platforms. Also as a side note I'm pretty sure you can do wall-jumps like in old SMB games I'll need to check my recordings but I think I got a few on camera.