I'm going to have to go against the flow and give this one a no. A high-range no (just below a meh), but still a no.
The "under the floor" glitch is already showcased plenty in the SNES run. Stretching out the game by going for a farther ending point doesn't really add any additional entertainment except in those few instances where there is interaction with the environment going on.
While invoking the "Cursed Link" glitch is fairly interesting, the side effects of the glitch are incredibly annoying. Making the low health and rupee sounds go constantly negates the entertainment that should have been gained by breaking the game so thoroughly. I also didn't care for the corrupted color palette, but that was far less offensive to the senses than the sounds.
I liked the final boss fight (although I have no idea what was going on), but I have a nagging feeling that the input is ended too soon. I've never been a fan of movies that force the watcher not to touch anything for a significant period of time just so they can end input sooner. If null frames are required to beat the game, my opinion is that they are part of the run even if they can theoretically be omitted from the input. I don't see a big enough difference between forcing the viewer to leave null input after the input ends and forcing them to hold a button after the input ends. I'm not sure how much of the desync problem is due to how early input is ended, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is a large cause of the problem.
To clarify, the "no" vote has nothing to do with when the input is ended and is based on the fact that this run primarily consists of more of the same things seen in the SNES run and a glitch that makes the rest of the run incredibly annoying.
jlun2, don't take this personally. I fully admit I'm a harsh critic, especially when it comes to branches that I don't think add enough new and exciting content. If the SNES glitched run wasn't already on site or if I wasn't so sensitive to auditory annoyances, I would have given this a more favorable vote.
A typical Saturday night in the Tepes household (in no particular order):
- Alucard decides his name is really X-X!V''Q.
- He eats "poisonous" mushrooms roughly once every five minutes.
- He wanders around erratically, including going back through doors he just came through.
- He tries to moonwalk everywhere, but only manages to jerk backwards awkwardly.
- He falls down several flights of stairs, out a couple windows, and almost drowns in the basement.
- He thinks he fell through the floor. Repeatedly.
- He gets thrown around like a rag doll by almost everything he touches
- He forgets about places he's just been.
- He thinks he is being followed by floating talking swords, fairies, and demons.
- He sees scantly clad or naked women in the middle of the night. Some have wings.
- He keeps seeing the moon change phase at random.
- He suddenly starts seeing the whole world as a blocky, oddly-colored mess.
- He runs around the house at full speed thinking he is a wolf or a bat.
- He suddenly starts seeing everything upside down.
- He yells "What!?" a lot.
- He beats up his father for no explained reason and then starts whining about his dead mother.
Congratulations! You made SOTN into the only entertaining Stoner Comedy in existence. Easy yes vote.
(And remember kiddies: Just say no to drugs!)
Well, I'm trying to think bigger picture than this submission. If this is acceptable wouldn't the warpless be too? That movie has some beautiful solutions in order to get mario in position to do the "walking against the flagpole" glitch. On the E ROM it will regress back to a "runs to the right" TAS like it used to be. That's disappointing.
The question is what is more important for a TAS: entertainment or speed? I still think that speed should win out unless a very little bit of speed can be sacrificed for a very large amount of entertainment.
I admit I find how the current warpless run sets up the flagpole glitch entertaining, but that's largely because I know that setting up that glitch is necessary for obtaining the shortest time. Especially for a game like SMB, I'd rather watch a movie I knew was optimal (the absolute shortest amount of play) than one marginally more entertaining.
If the only concern is losing the flagpole glitch, I feel obligated to repeat my previous suggestion: have somebody release a glitch-filled playaround for it like there is for the All-Stars version of SMB3. If the fastest run isn't the most entertaining, perhaps it might be better to publish a run purely for the sake of entertainment alongside the fastest run.
As for people who think that this run should only be allowed as a branch to the NTSC version - Why? As I understand it, the site's philosophy is to publish new branches only when they provide a substantial difference from the published runs. The only noticeable differences between a PAL run and a NTSC run are the flagpole glitch and the music. That really doesn't seem like nearly enough of a difference to warrant a new category be made. They don't seem to be enough to prevent the PAL version from obsoleting the NTSC version, either.
Voting no. As the author has said, this is not an optimized movie. However, I think that if an optimized movie is submitted, that it should obsolete the NTSC run on the grounds of being faster.
This pretty much sums up my thoughts exactly. Not using the (E) version is a sizable speed/entertainment tradeoff, and the SMB1 runs have always been cutthroat enough that any gained entertainment at the cost of speed has always been avoided (to the best of my knowledge). If the PAL version isn't allowed, TASVideos will never again have the fastest SMB1 video in existence. I don't like that idea very much.
I personally don't think that setting up a perfect flagpole glitch really adds enough entertainment to justify intentionally ignoring a simple, sizable improvement to the run.
The other argument seems to claim that the (E) version is inherently inferior to the (JU) version. I don't buy this argument. It is an official Nintendo product; it isn't some fan hack. Playing the game normally, you can barely tell the difference between the two regions. Unless someone can explain how the physics of the PAL version is objectively inferior to the NTSC version instead of merely different, I don't see why this can be considered a legitimate excuse for prohibiting the PAL release.
At this juncture, I personally think that perhaps the best course of action would be to have the PAL version be the version used for the actual speedruns (excluding the -3 run for obvious reasons), but also have a NTSC "Playaround" run in addition to the currently existing run. There are tons of glitches in SMB1 that can't be abused for saving time, and I think a run containing as many of them as possible would be entertaining enough to deserve a new category.
The fastest PAL run and the fastest NTSC run are too visibly similar to justify making this run its own category, though.
as far as using the sword is concerned, it is well known that ganon can not be defeated without a sword. Anybody who does a swordless quest knows this and the actual completion of this challenge is the entering of ganon's lair. At that point player doing this quest has the option of finishing the game off with the sword or calling it a day but either way the challenge is over.
For a TAS this is no different. He doesn't use the sword until the swordless challenge is over, and which point he decided to finish ganon off just to show the game completion for the TAS (since we tend to prefer completed games). Think of this as "bonus coverage"
I'm not sure that the completion goals of off-site runs should matter, regardless of how well-known they are. Especially in this case, since the goal does not explicitly include beating the game.
The comparison to the Contra Pacifist run isn't enough to sway my opinion for three reasons:
1) It assumes that I would have voted yes for the original Contra Pacifist run. I probably wouldn't have since the gameplay doesn't seem to gain much by the added restriction either.
2) "Pacifist" as goal choice is rather vague, whereas "Swordless" is not. "Pacifist" could imply several things, including never defeating enemies, never killing humanoids, never firing weapons, never killing anything unless needed, etc. In this case, vagueness is actually a plus, since it requires a look at the submission text in order to find out the real goal of the run.
A much better comparison would be if the "Pacifist" run were instead named the "No Kills" run. "Swordless" implies that the sword is either never obtained or never used, not that it is never used except when absolutely necessary.
3) In theory, the goal of never killing anything is more interesting than never using the sword. The sword has several replacements, including the bombs and wand. Killing things has no true substitute (other than avoiding them). In practice, this is a lot less interesting for a TAS compared to a regular speedrun (since avoiding enemies is neither all that impressive nor that different from regular play while TASing) but that's a different argument entirely.
I won't be upset when this is accepted, and I do think that this run is entertaining and well-done. I just don't think that "Swordless" as a category is different enough to deserve a separate category. Then again, I fully recognize that my standard for branches is much higher than the average person's. Just because my opinion doesn't really matter in the long run doesn't mean I can't share it.
I try to watch runs before reading the commentary (to avoid spoilers), so I too was sorely disappointed when the wooden sword was picked up. I was hoping that perhaps some glitch to skip/kill Ganon had been found, but sadly that was not the case.
I was looking forward to giving this one a yes going in, but I have to give it a no for two reasons:
1) Does not adhere to the the run's stated goal. The goal itself makes the game unwinnable, which makes it a poor choice of goals, in my opinion. This by itself would be enough to drop it to a "meh" in my book. If this were titled "no non-Ganon sword use" it would be accurate, but that just makes the goal sound pretty arbitrary.
2) Doesn't feel like it offers that much entertainment that can't be found in the other runs. The new route isn't bad, but mostly just feels like doing the same things from the other run only in a different order. Manipulating enemies so you can bomb them is interesting as well, but after the first couple times it loses its novelty and starts to look the same. This is enough to just barely drop it into "no" status for me.
It might partly be that, as Cardboard said, this game is the worst in the series for TASing. Even changing the route or using different enemy strategies doesn't feel like it makes a big difference in the end. By no means is this a bad run, but it seems like an unnecessary split.
On another note, would it be faster to pick up a couple of those post-boss heart tanks you just barely miss and grab the Silver Sword after Level 5? It doesn't seem like it is very far off the path and it would save time against Ganon (not to mention allow for more damage boosts). If you have to collect the sword to beat the game, it really shouldn't matter which sword you get or when you get it, in my opinion.
Since the author even admits that the play quality (i.e. luck manipulation) isn't as good as the published run, it really never should have obsoleted it, faster or no.
On the language controversy - Switching to Japanese for faster text isn't legitimate, but switching to exploit the equipment bug is perfectly fine. Switching seriously hurts the entertainment value, though, due to the large amount of text in the game.
I personally think that perhaps a new run of FFVI that uses the equip bug could use the retranslation in order to keep things readable and make the game time between the previous run and a new run easier to compare.
Technically, fan translations are against the site rules, but it has already been broken by at least one published run (Star Fox 2) and there was a thread a while back where the general consensus was that the rule needed to be updated/removed.
I don't like the idea of a completely Japanese FFVI run becoming the default language, but I don't care for banning the equip bug, either. The retranslation (which I haven't personally played, FWIW) seems like a nice compromise.
I just finished watching this, and it seems like this hack and this run are both more entertaining than Constancy.
Unfortunately, I don't think this has enough additional entertainment value to deserve publishing alongside the other 8 NES Megaman runs on the site. This run doesn't seem to show any glitches or tricks that the Constancy run doesn't, so It feels largely redundant to publish them together (similar to the NES/GB Tetris issue).
Long story short, I vote no for this being published alongside Constancy, but vote yes if it obsoletes it. Overall "meh" vote.
sparky decided to use the (U) version because of someone (spweasel, I think) bitching and moaning about him using the (J) version for his 100%.
I don't see why I continue to be vilified over this. I had a minor concern with that run using the (J) version, and I stated it. After that, I merely responded to people calling my argument stupid, calling me racist, putting words in my mouth, etc. by defending my position. As I said in that thread, the ROM version was the least of my concerns regarding that run.
As for this run, it gets an easy yes from me. The gameplay is a clear improvement, which is what matters most. I do appreciate that this run goes back to the (U) version, but I would have voted yes even if it hadn't.
Thanks, sparky, this is a great run!
These games are two of my favorites, which makes it painful to have to give this a "meh" vote. And no, before anyone asks, it has nothing to do with game version.
Honestly, I don't think this really gains much entertainment value by being a dual-run. Both games regularly give you large windows where input doesn't matter, giving you plenty of time to do stuff on the other game. This makes it seem that the only major difference from a regular run is to make sure that the games stay out-of-sync with each other at all times. This is close in concept to the 4 Megaman run, except that it only finishes two games and gives more openings for giving each game input.
In my opinion, this would be more entertaining if it did one of two things:
1) Was a single, optimized run that coincidentally finished some other, possibly unrelated game (I know some other run did that, though I forget which one). You could obviously improve the FF6 run just by exploiting the equipment bug, and if there is enough wasted input frames to finish another game, even better.
2) Added more games. I suspect that I would have found this more entertaining if it had also completed, say, Final Fantasy 4 and Final Fantasy Mystic Quest at the same time.
Thank you for the run, though. I really do like the idea behind multi-runs, I'm just not sold on this particular pairing. It feels a little bit too much like watching two completely separate runs simultaneously rather than a single input file.
There were some entertaining bits, but overall I wasn't amazed. The games get a little too repetitive, and there really is only so much that can be done to make many of these games entertaining to watch.
This is basically the same as the Salary Man run that was accepted not that long ago, only with more repetitive minigames, a different (less exotic) sense of humor, and very little that can be done to speed things up.
Sorry to say, I have to give this one a no due to poor game choice (for TASing, anyways).
I wasn't crazy about the initial load time and the action isn't exactly visually exciting. That being said, it is still easy to appreciate the fact that nations are wiped out in hilarious fashion and that the run is remarkably fast. This is an amazing example of luck manipulation in action, which leads to a very entertaining run overall.
Easy yes vote.
I found zero entertainment in this run. The movements were slow making me feel that the game belongs in the category "press button and wait .5 seconds before response". There were no interesting moves/fatalities, and nothing to keep this viewers attention.
A perfect game run, yes, but not a good game choice. Glad to see you tasing again, Truncated.
I'm not the original no vote, but I have to agree with this for the most part. It's a pretty slow-paced game, and the attacks/combos aren't exactly flashy or interesting. Personally, I think that a playaround for any game needs to provide above-average entertainment to be worth accepting, and this one is slightly below-average.
Also, I'd just like to point out that the crunching sound that enemies make is annoying enough to make me mad. It ranks up there with the "pouring a drink" noise you hear during beer commercials.
I guess I should have my Rockman 7 run (as well as my Star Fox Level 1 Warpless) pulled at SDA, since the primary language in the forums is English and we should only cater to those that speak the language. Cause you know, all other languages are crap and should be abandoned immediately. And I committed the great sin (in some people's opinion) that the Japanese version of a game shouldn't be used!
I didn't realize this site was SDA. Huh, that's weird. My browser bar says I'm at "tasvideos.org". Strange mistake.
TASVideos and SDA are not comparable due to differences in how videos are made and watched. Most importantly, they do not have a game version rule as far as I know.
P.S. I should also have my Akumajou Special - Boku Dracula-kun run unpublished from here too, cause that's in Japanese too.
I never said that all Japanese runs (or any runs at all) should be removed from the site, only that every non-(U) run should have adequate reason for doing so before being accepted.
The Rules Page wrote:
Use the (U) version of a ROM unless there is a good reason not to (as an example a shortcut/trick which only works in a different version, or superior music), or the version does not exist.
The (U) version is preferable for videos here due to the target audience, but that does not mean that it other versions can't be used if the situation calls for it. A game not being available in English is a very good reason to use the Japanese ROM.
I never said that using the (J) version was a "great sin" as you put in my mouth, but rather that it usually provides sub-optimal enjoyment (and generally makes the run harder to watch or improve legally). Other languages aren't crap, they just aren't preferable for this site.
What do you mean by "run overload"?
Sorry, I guess that was more than a little vague. I'm talking about having more videos for a game than that game can feasibly support. This goes back to my original thought that this run doesn't differentiate itself from an any% enough to justify creating a new category.
No he isn't. He understands English (for the most part), and can write mostly intelligible posts. He may not have the firmest grasp on the English language, but he can still be an asset to the community.
Drop the racism
[sarcasm]Yes, I'm racist. Obviously. Suggesting we open a subforum so that non-English speaking TASers can more easily participate with the site obviously proves that.[/sarcasm]
The main target audience for TASVideos can read English, but is unlikely to know how to read Japanese. The target audience for a Nico run can read Japanese, but probably cannot read much English. Using the (J) version on Nicovideo is the default, whereas here the default is the (U) version. There is a guideline that states that a run using the (J) version should have sufficient reason for doing so - I don't think never being intended for TASVideos is a good enough reason for breaking that guideline.
I'm also not really all that "against" this run. I would currently put it at the high end of "no", while any of the three issues being resolved would push it at least into "meh" territory. I am only continuing to post here to defend my opinions, which I don't think are entirely unreasonable.
I fully admit this run is entertaining, I just don't think that is enough for this run. This isn't YouTube or Nicovideo where entertainment is the only concern. We should also consider things like optimization and run overload.
Some things that would improve my opinion of this run:
Major:
- Major, noticeable bugs exploited that can't be during an any%
- Interesting strategies employed that cannot be used during an any%
- Significant amount of new content due to getting all items
- Proof that the route used is optimal
Minor:
- (U) ROM
- More varied wait times
So we're going to lose some excelent Japanese TASers just because they can't understand English?
The thing is, these TASers are never really going to be members of TASVideos. Besides submitting runs, they cannot provide much to the community; they can neither give nor receive tips for improving runs, cannot be fully informed while voting on other people's runs, and cannot create intelligible run submission text.
These people can continue submitting their runs to YouTube and/or NicoVideo (their intended audience), so it isn't like we are preventing them from TASing by turning down a run they made.
The language rule is worthless as it currently stands. I don't see why the rules for non-community members submitting runs here should be any more lax than actual members of the community. If a community member were to start making a WIP of Final Fantasy 6 using the (J) version, they presumably never would have gotten too far before being caught. If someone really wants a significant improvement over the currently published time, though, they can just make the whole run and submit it to Nicovideo and claim they didn't know this site existed when the video was made.
I guess I just think that the language rule should either be made a hard rule or done away with entirely. I have to agree that the extra entertainment provided by English text is of only mild importance, so I really wouldn't be too hurt if the rule was removed. I feel it only does the community a disservice in its current state.
If we are going to support the non-English speaking TASers putting runs here, we should change the forums so that they are provided with as much opportunity as possible to get similar help as English TASers. Perhaps create language-specific subforums for people to post in their native tongues and get help from members of the TASVideos community that speak the same language. Also, submission texts would need to be allowed in any language (and translated by the community), since I'd argue a detailed non-English submission text is significantly more helpful than an English one that is lacking in details (and run through Google Translate).
Some people need to get off of their high horses and give 100% TASes a chance instead of going with their preconceived ideals.
I assume this was directed at me, then? I always give 100% runs a chance, and don't see how not automatically accepting a 100% run means I am on a "high horse". I am just doubtful that this game warrants a separate category for it. Indeed, I'd argue that you are the one with "preconceived ideals", since you sound as if you think that all 100% runs deserve publishing.
I'm voting no because I don't think this shows that it was given enough effort at optimization, it doesn't provide enough additional entertainment over an any% run, and because it uses the "wrong" ROM version, not just because it was in Japanese. Using the (J) ROM is a mark against it, since I think the text being understandable to TASVideo's target audience is more important than the small amount of time saved. It isn't a deal breaker, though, and would gladly vote yes if it differentiated itself more from an any% run and convinced me that it was truly optimal at time of creation.
1).Usage R.J skip blues conversation.
See, I would be more likely to support a new 100% category if it used bugs like this that can't be shown in an any% run without sacrificing time. These sorts of bugs actually do provide additional entertainment.
No reason to be hostile. I merely think this needs to be given stricter scrutiny than many people here have done.
Sir VG wrote:
The any% run uses it. The reason was for the faster conversations with Dr Light. So let's throw this stupid argument out.
No, the any% run uses it because it is "more entertaining" (it has "funny" stage descriptions and Roll/Auto dialog that is never seen), and was accepted despite the fact that the different version is used rather than because of it. Unless I am mistaken, shorter text/title screen has never been a valid reason to choose (J) over (U). A previously accepted run of the (J) version should not automatically allow other movies to do so. Indeed:
The Rules Page wrote:
Site rules still apply even if the published movie breaks them.
We know it exists, but don't know if it's faster to do the 2nd 4 out of order. I've yet to see evidence that the time by not having Spring before Shade will cover this. If there is, please point me to it. I'd like to see it.
I don't know if it has been tested or not, either. If it had been tested and didn't save any time, it should have been mentioned in either the submission text or a post in the MM7 thread. But the lack of mention anywhere makes me think that the author just never tested it.
This is why I said I am holding off on voting - if someone can show somewhere that says that the bug does not save time in a 100% run, I'd up my vote to at least a "meh".
Might as well throw out all the other arbitrary categories out while we're at it too, huh?
Arbitrary categories should be accepted only if they provide significant additional entertainment value. For example, the MMX 100% run is still entertaining since it puts the Hadoken to good use.
I'm not sure that this run does enough that it wouldn't have done during an any% run. The level order might be changed, but the strategies used during levels don't seem significantly different. The majority of items collected happen "on the way", without seeming to require much additional effort to obtain. I am unconvinced that this is a game where a 100% run is different enough from a regular run to warrant a different category be made, much like I would probably oppose a 100% category for Mega Man 5 or 6.
I'll hold off on voting for now, but I'm leaning towards no unless convinced otherwise, for the following reasons:
1) Uses (J) ROM instead of (U) ROM without any real reason. As I said in the latest Ocarina of Time run, I don't think there should be a "Nicovideo first" exception to that rule.
2) Does not exploit all known bugs. I haven't really been following MM7 TASing, but I knew about the Noise Crush bug, which is a bad sign. I'm guessing that if the author had checked the MM7 thread here while making this movie, he would have known about it, too (since the first post I saw about it here was from late 2007).
3) Very little is gained by this being a 100% run. Since the obtained items aren't used at all, getting them adds little to the run besides extra waiting for Rush to dig stuff up. The only real "new content" from this being 100% is the Protoman battle, which isn't exactly the highlight of the run.
Overall, I rather enjoyed this run, since the levels and bosses were well done (from an entertainment point of view). The issues listed above make me wonder if this really belongs on this site, however. The author certainly did a good job with this, and I would love to see a (U) version any% run from him.
While I do agree that the gameplay gets old fast, it seems short enough to me that it never gets quite boring enough to stop watching (unlike most RPG runs, for example). I think the weirdness of the whole thing might be what keeps this just barely interesting enough to finish watching.
Weak yes vote.
I'm not sure what to think about this. Both the hack and the play quality are better than any of the others submitted recently, but neither are quite up to the standards of the original game.
The hack itself tends towards fake difficulty (not that it matters for TASing), the bosses really needed to be renamed and/or resprited, and there are some really poor animations to be found (such as Heatman just sliding across the floor). Honestly, the "new" graphics and sound just don't do it for me, though I have a hard time placing why exactly. On the positive side, I think it probably has enough of a following and some of the new weapons are interesting.
As for the gameplay, I suspect that the runs for the "real" Megaman games have spoiled me a bit. If this is published, I hope that it is improved quickly - it seems to have room for it.
All in all, I was somewhat entertained, but I'm not sure if that's enough for these runs. Meh vote.
In other news, shouldn't "Mr. cstrakm's" contribution of Heatman's stage be credited somewhere other than just the YouTube video? In fact, was permission to use his WIP given at all?
Easy yes vote. I haven't watched the ending stages yet, but the WIP of the 8 Maverick stages was highly entertaining.
I love how Zero moves in this one. He must have gotten into the caffeine pills again.
I'm glad that something's finally being done with this.
When I read that this was going to be under the "uses death to save time" heading, I actually thought that the very end of the movie was just being misinterpreted, but then I realized that the Blue vs Rouge fight was what was being talked about.
It might technically fall under the heading of "dies to save time", but it feels a little different. Winning the fight is (obviously) optional, and is actually considered a perfectly valid strategic decision. Also, it's worth noting that Blue actually loses that fight canonically.
I know that a lot of RPGs have bosses which you aren't supposed to beat, but you technically can with massive level grinding. Would runs of these games also get the "uses death to save time" tag?
I was going to give this a meh, but then I played this version on the DS release. Playing the game certainly helps put the crazy physics abuse into focus. Yes vote, though I'd love to see improvements.
How old is the heroine supposed to be, anyways? I had assumed she was an elementary school student, but the art for the menu on the DS version would indicate that she is well into puberty at least.
I'm abstaining from voting.
I was entertained, but I strongly suspect that it was mostly from the WJT factor of the game's humor rather than the actual gameplay/TASing. This would be even better if there were annotations for what was going on, but I'm still not convinced this is TAS material.
That being said, thanks for the run. It was fun to watch.
I don't like the game itself, but this run is very entertaining. I particularly love where the first part of the YouTube run stopped. The humor inserted during waiting periods is great as well.
Definite yes vote from me. The annotations need to make it into the official encode, though (preferably displayed a little longer, since I didn't finish reading some of them before they disappeared).