Posted: 8/30/2010 6:03 PM
(Edited: 6/4/2022 4:59 PM)
Post subject: VGA hacking for higher framerates: Rules dilemma
Quote
Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Rules question. Some games accept input only once per a frame. However, contrary to legacy platforms like the NES, on the VGA (and especially on SuperVGA display cards), the framerate can be altered programmatically without altering the actual hardware. For example, instead of the default 70.0 fps, the 320x200 display mode (mode 13) could be changed to be rendered at 120.0 fps, and it will still be 320x200. This is all possible. The question is, is it theoretically allowed on TASVideos to load up a little TSR prior to the game's loading, that when installed, will alter the mode 13 after it is set such that the screen refresh rate is changed to 120 (or even higher) from the default 70*? There is no precedent on TASVideos for a question like this, so no law is set on it either. What do you people think? Let me emphasize that this is not an emulator hack. It all happens within the emulation, which means it is possible on actual hardware as well (provided that the CRT (monitor) can keep up with the signal produced by the display card). Also I do realize also that this is a slippery slope: If a TSR that alters BIOS functions is allowed, how about an ActionReplay style TSR that pokes stuff into the game's RAM? *) Yes, mode 13h is 70 fps, though JPC versions 10 and earlier force all screen modes to be refreshed at 60.000 fps contrary to how VGA actually works.
Posted: 8/30/2010 6:19 PM
(Edited: 6/4/2022 4:59 PM)
Quote
moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
That doesn't change the number of frames played, only the speed the game is played at, right? If so it doesn't matter as long as we have a standard point of reference for the game speed. I think the question should be, what should we set the standard point of reference to then? Do we decide it per-game (in which case the framerate shouldn't be changed from the default, imo) or force it to 60, 70, or 72?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 8/30/2010 6:29 PM
(Edited: 6/4/2022 4:59 PM)
Quote
Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Naturally it changes the number of frames. The game may or may not run at unchanged speed, but it will render more frames per second and may accept input more rapidly. As for standard point of reference, the standard point of reference should be the amount of time (measured in seconds) it takes to complete the game starting from PC poweron. In my opinion, framecounts are completely irrelevant. Why would you like to count the number of times the screen refreshes? Why don't you count disk accesses or something equally irrelevant for a change?
Posted: 8/30/2010 6:37 PM
(Edited: 6/4/2022 4:59 PM)
Quote
moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Because, if we can set the game speed to a (semi-)arbitrary value, it becomes exactly as irrelevant. If a game can process 200 frames per second with sufficient CPU power supplied, it won't even resemble itself anymore, but will naturally yield a faster TAS. There should be a limit to this, because artificially speeding games up strikes me as wrong. Though I guess that depends on what kind of changes this introduces to the gameplay.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 8/30/2010 6:49 PM
(Edited: 6/4/2022 4:59 PM)
Post subject: Re: VGA hacking for higher framerates: Rules dilemma
Quote
DarkKobold
Skilled player (1652)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Arcade TASer of 2010 PCE TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2009 Lucky TAS of 2007
Bisqwit wrote:
The question is, is it theoretically allowed on TASVideos to load up a little TSR prior to the game's loading, that when installed, will alter the mode 13 after it is set such that the screen refresh rate is changed to 120 (or even higher) from the default 70*?
I would say that a TSR would be the console equivalent of attaching a game-genie to a cartridge. Both systems interfere with the standard interface to run a game, and thus should not be used.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Posted: 8/30/2010 10:02 PM
(Edited: 6/4/2022 4:59 PM)
Quote
creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
I'd say only allow frequency changes if they're possible from within the game. (Turrican II was one of those games. Original ran at 50 Hz with the Amiga monitor; on the PC the default was 60 Hz, iirc. Made the space shoot'em up sequences a bit harder.)
Posted: 8/30/2010 10:35 PM
(Edited: 6/4/2022 4:59 PM)
Quote
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4043
Unless changing the frame rate causes glitches or other side effects, it's a pointless endeavour.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Posted: 8/31/2010 1:18 AM
(Edited: 6/4/2022 4:59 PM)
Post subject: Re: VGA hacking for higher framerates: Rules dilemma
Quote
Zeupar
Joined: 5/14/2007
Posts: 525
Location: Pisces-Cetus filament
Bisqwit wrote:
Also I do realize also that this is a slippery slope: If a TSR that alters BIOS functions is allowed, how about an ActionReplay style TSR that pokes stuff into the game's RAM?
That is the key line. I'm for not allowing VGA hacking at all to avoid future controversy.
AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3 xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D Help improving TASVideos!