Game objectives

According to the game itself, the objective is to "Bring the android to life!". My specific goals were:
  • Aims to max out every game counter (Power Up value, bumper value, Android Millions, bonus multiplier, AI, Physical Systems, and Physical Systems tests) and bring the android to life
  • Manipulates luck
  • Makes entertainment and speed tradeoffs
  • Uses default angle settings
  • Emulator used: JPC-RR r10

Game description

Epic Pinball Shareware was widely distributed in the mid 1990's and consisted of a single table named Android (although the playfield art reads Super Android in versions after 1.1). The Android table was arguably the most complete and entertaining table in the Epic Pinball series. As was often the case at the time, the authors released the best they had as shareware and heavily promoted the full game. The shareware version contained many well-known cheat codes and several mostly unhelpful glitches. The general difficulty of the game and the excellent graphics and sound gave the game a very high replayability factor for being a free-as-in-lunch game. The game still holds a lot of nostalgia for many PC users of the time.
Because this is a shareware game it can be freely downloaded from a number of sources. This run was created with shareware version 2.1 found at the excellent http://www.classicdosgames.com site on the Epic Pinball page (and also mirrored here) with an MD5 sum of 5ff1e90b8225c330c010ea76427008d6 (the primary executable PINBALL.EXE has an MD5 sum of caf0205c1f92dc7275227ffbdedd98ad). I have confirmed that this run syncs with both the 2.1 and the 2.0 version of the game but it will not sync with version 1.1 as that version lacks the left ramp sinkhole and accompanying diverter. The actual disk image I created for JPC-RR can be found at http://sonic.net/~ac/tas/EpicPinball.

Run information

Emulator notes: This run was created with JPC-RR version r.10. JPC-RR cannot be played in real-time with any currently available computer hardware and version r.10 does not have a quick way to output the video to watch it in real-time. This means that the only way to truly see the result of a run is to dump the video which also happens at a fraction of real-time and thus is very time consuming (it was at a minimum a three hour process using my fastest system). Also of note is that DOS samples the keyboard up to 250 times a "frame" making sub-frame manipulation possible and in some cases necessary. To say that differently, attempting a TAS in a DOS environment with JPC-RR has unique challenges and advantages in comparison to console runs.
Game physics: The physics simulation used in the Epic Pinball series has some unusual characteristics.
  • The balls themselves seem to have an internal energy - if you trap and hold a ball with the flipper the ball will continue to move on its own, slowly rolling up the inlane and then back onto the flipper before repeating ad nauseum.
  • Momentum is not properly calculated when the ball collides with objects at high speeds which is primarily visible when the ball is bouncing back and forth between the slingshots as the ball's speed can suddenly drop significantly.
  • The ball sometimes comes to a dead stop when nearing the apex of a ramp, typically when another ball is at or above the same level on the playfield. This is demonstrated once or twice during the run.
  • When the ball is on or near the flipper and the flipper is triggered the ball's resulting velocity (literally speed and direction) is artificially limited to a small subset of possibilities. This above all else is the most limiting restriction as a shot that seems like it would be possible, well, isn't. The net result is that the run contains a lot of points where the ball is fired in a haphazard-looking direction in order to set up a subsequent shot. This is especially true when aiming for the far left Testing sinkhole, the left lane, and the far right Physical Systems sinkhole.
Glitches:
  • The drop target collision detection is very poor. If the ball is at all traveling quickly the shot will not register making it very hard to hit them successfully leading to some very creative methods of backhanding the ball to the left side of the playfield.
  • Balls frequently get stuck and copied in various different sinkholes meaning the next shot to that sinkhole doesn't take, although it does clear the copied ball out of the hole.
  • If an exit sinkhole (such as the Power sinkhole which is the exit for the testing sinkhole) has a copied ball in it the next shot to the entrance sinkhole will not register.
  • Occasionally shots fired at a sinkhole are immediately fired back out without registering even when there's no ball stuck in the sinkhole. This annoying behavior along with the stuck ball characteristic is very noticeable when playing normally outside of a TAS and can be very frustrating as there really isn't a great way to avoid it (these glitches nearly drove me to insanity when I was playing this game in the 90's).
  • If a ball is transitioning from one sinkhole to another and another ball on the playfield is at the same height or higher the first ball may drop out of the sinkhole and fall completely off of the table. This is demonstrated a couple of times in the run although it isn't generally detrimental to the run.
  • If multiball is in progress when a second multiball is started all balls in play may be instantly transported to the plunger lane and auto-fired; this may be a feature but it looks very unnatural.
  • When starting multiball the view may get stuck at the bottom of the playfield; this can be cleared by showing the score and then re-hiding it. This is demonstrated during the second multiball in the run.
Game setup and configuration: The first time PINBALL.EXE is executed it runs through a series of several screens to set up the sound card IRQ, DMA, and fidelity settings. Luckily, this only takes a few frames to complete thanks to sub-frame keyboard entry. I opted to start the game without making any customizations to the angle (tilt level) controls meaning this run uses the default Normal angle setting. As soon as the game starts I removed the score display so more of the playfield was visible. Also of note is that about a third of the way into the run I adjusted the "tracking" setting to Slow; this has no impact on gameplay outside of altering the RNG but it does make it so the view doesn't jerk around as much which looks a little better when multiball starts.

Section by section notes

Completing AI: There are two major tasks to complete. The first is bringing up the Artificial Intelligence system and the second is bringing up the Physical System. The AI system is started by shooting the right ramp to link the computer to the android and then shooting the left ramp which prints text on the screen telling the player what action to perform to install the next AI. In some cases in this run the text is skipped to save time but the instructions usually boil down to "hit all ramps" or "hit all sinkholes". Installing the final AI scores the super jackpot and brings the android to life. This happens about halfway through the run and scores 100M points.
Completing Physical Systems: The Physical Systems sinkhole is on the far lower right side of the playfield and is enabled by dropping all three of the targets on the left side of the playfield. A two ball multiball is started when some of the physical systems are completed such as the right arm. Most of these multiballs are ended through creative displays of the various glitches in the game. A three ball multiball starts when the final Physical System, the Torso, is completed. (By the way, I can't possibly see how you could activate an arm before activating the torso unless you're dyslexic and watching the Black Knight from Monty Python but I digress... :)
Maxing all game counters:
  • Power Up value: This is the center sinkhole. 10M is awarded when the power is Maxed out.
  • Bumper value: This is accomplished by hitting the left lane which activates the center ramp which subsequently raises the value of the pop bumpers. I kept going until it stopped printing new bumper values on the screen.
  • Android millions: This is accomplished by lighting up the red and white circle placed above the left slingshot by rolling over it and then shooting the left ramp. This maxes out at 9 million per shot. This is the shot that usually has balls drop out of it although it isn't the only place it can happen.
  • Bonus multiplier: This is accomplished by completing the four rollovers above the pop bumpers and maxes out at 5x.
  • Physical Systems tests: This can be done for each physical system up to level 5. I tested each physical system to at least level 1 and I tested the Torso, the final Physical System, to level 5 which awards 249M, the highest single award in the game. I show the score counter right before the final shot so the awarded value can be seen more easily.
Bonus count and ending: Take note that this run ends very abruptly. After completing the final Physical Systems test which is the final award needed I allow all of the balls to drain (OK, I actually force one of them to drain faster :) which allows the bonus count to complete although it's only on the screen for one frame. As soon as the bonus count is added up I quit the game, enter my initials, and exit the game completely to roll the credits (and advertisements). The time it takes to exit the game properly is minimal given the game length and I feel it is a much more natural way to complete the game but the run could just as easily be considered complete the frame the bonus is counted.

Potential improvements

This run makes entertainment and speed tradeoffs as overly "optimal" play wouldn't have as much character, wouldn't show off as many glitches, and would require extensive luck manipulation which is non-trivial given the current state and speed of JPC-RR. Many segments in this run contain sub-optimal looking shots which are necessary to set up a subsequent shot based on the various physics restrictions (although some of these transitions could probably be improved in a future run). At some point in the distant future when a DOS emulator can run at full speed this run should probably be revisited as I'm positive being able to view the sequence of events in realtime would aid in reducing the number of transition shots without sacrificing entertainment. Also, despite the fact that it's not the highest scoring award in the game it may make sense in a future run to bring the android to life as the last task instead of halfway through the middle of the run.

Suggested screenshots

Any point where a ball is glitching off of the table would be a good choice. The final bonus screen in the game or the final high score screen would both make good screenshots and would help to show the final score which is only visible for a couple of frames (Ilari's encode does have a hardcoded subtitle to show the final score, however).

Thanks

More than anyone else Ilari made this run possible, both by creating JPC-RR as well as by supporting my initial efforts by fixing bugs I discovered in the development version of JPC-RR. I look forward to his future improvements in JPC-RR. Additional thanks go to Grunt and Undie who both stepped up post-submission to offer additional hosting for the encode.

sgrunt: Updated the game name, version, and branch. I've also uploaded dwangoAC's encode to Mediafire so that we don't abuse his bandwidth.
sgrunt: Ilari's done a new version of his encode with a different logo

Nach: Since there aren't vocal opponents regarding how this movie ends, I'll accept it as is. Thanks everyone who provided feedback, and of course to dwangoAC for making this movie.
sgrunt: I am about to publish Ilari's encode. Stay tuned.

creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
How do you play the TAS in the emulator, by the way? When I click "Snapshot"->"Load"->"Movie" and select it, this message appears: http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/6500/loadsavestatefailed.png The files "BIOS", "VGABIOS", "floppy.img" and "EpicPinball" are in the "disklibrary" directory.
Banned User
Joined: 6/18/2010
Posts: 183
Even though I never played the game I thought the TAS was pretty cool. I can't pin down exactly why that is, but I found myself watching it to the end. The ending was pretty disappointing, it would be cool if you made a TAS of a pinball game that had an actual goal recognized by the game. There was a cool one on Sega called Dragon's Revenge, I think.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (898)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1007
Pointless Boy wrote:
...it would be cool if you made a TAS of a pinball game that had an actual goal recognized by the game.
In that case, have a look at my High Speed run which has a definite ending (but also has really, really annoying unskippable cutscenes - I'd recommend using the Lua script I created and linked in the submission text to fast forward past them). As far as Epic Pinball Android is concerned it's definitely possible that a future run can test the final physical system AND bring the android to life at nearly the same time which would give it a slightly more solid ending than what's there now. I'd gladly encourage someone to make another run that attempts to do this although I'd suggest waiting for jpc-rr dumping controls so it's easier to play back what you've already done in realtime (not being able to see what things really looked like was a significant handicap when making this run). Thanks for the feedback, A.C. ******
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (898)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1007
creaothceann wrote:
How do you play the TAS in the emulator, by the way? When I click "Snapshot"->"Load"->"Movie" and select it, this message appears: http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/6500/loadsavestatefailed.png
Those are the right steps so the error message has me a bit puzzled - I took the files to a different Linux system and it started OK. You may want to save that stack trace and get it to Ilari - it's possible the problem is that your version of jpc-rr isn't recent enough. The movie file should sync in any version of jpc-rr later than r.10 based on an IRC conversation I had with Ilari but I did take a hotfix to resolve a stability issue so he may suggest a newer release. I know there are better dumping controls in the latest builds... Best of luck, A.C. ******
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Joined: 9/11/2010
Posts: 1
Wow, I remember playing this on a Shareware CD I bought from a K-Mart store(which I now work at) when I was about 11 or 12. I played the crap out of this one, and never got that far. An additional note on the comments section, change it from "Free-as-in-lunch" to "free-as-in-tax-payers-pay-for-it" to kinda mock the USA's political climate :P Big yes vote, though this is my first post...
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
The ending of this video leaves me scratching my head. Why not end it when you complete your goals, why is the buy the full game advertisement ran? Edit: I might also add this doesn't play the Android table but the Super Android table. The Android table is different, for example no slot on the far left.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (898)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1007
Nach wrote:
Why not end it when you complete your goals, why is the buy the full game advertisement ran?
Per the submission text: The time it takes to exit the game properly is minimal given the game length and I feel it is a much more natural way to complete the game but the run could just as easily be considered complete the frame the bonus is counted. After the advertisement the actual game credits run so it felt like the most natural thing to do after finishing the game, plus the credits music is pretty good. When I was younger I used to hex edit the credits file to say all kinds of strange things and discovered that the game crashed if the length of the text changed but I digress...
Nach wrote:
I might also add this doesn't play the Android table but the Super Android table. The Android table is different, for example no slot on the far left.
Thanks for bringing this up - I did a little more research and determined that version 1.1 of the shareware game which can be found at http://www.classicdosgames.com/game/Epic_Pinball.html shows only the word Android on the playfield (and as you indicated does not contain the left ramp diverter or sinkhole). Versions 2.0 and 2.1 of the shareware game which both sync with this TAS say Super Android on the playfield but continue to list the game's official advertised name as Android. I've updated the submission text to note the different versions. I'm not particularly picky what name is used for the table going forward but both seem equally valid depending on your perspective. Thanks for the feedback, A.C. ******
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
dwangoAC wrote:
Nach wrote:
Why not end it when you complete your goals, why is the buy the full game advertisement ran?
Per the submission text: The time it takes to exit the game properly is minimal given the game length and I feel it is a much more natural way to complete the game but the run could just as easily be considered complete the frame the bonus is counted. After the advertisement the actual game credits run so it felt like the most natural thing to do after finishing the game, plus the credits music is pretty good. When I was younger I used to hex edit the credits file to say all kinds of strange things and discovered that the game crashed if the length of the text changed but I digress...
Yes, I read your submission text, I still don't see the point though. We want our movies to end when the game ends. There is a debate as to when to stop exactly which you can see on our wiki. But going out of your way to show some info on who made the game, which is mostly please buy the full game advertisements?
dwangoAC wrote:
Nach wrote:
I might also add this doesn't play the Android table but the Super Android table. The Android table is different, for example no slot on the far left.
Thanks for bringing this up - I did a little more research and determined that version 1.1 of the shareware game which can be found at http://www.classicdosgames.com/game/Epic_Pinball.html shows only the word Android on the playfield (and as you indicated does not contain the left ramp diverter or sinkhole). Versions 2.0 and 2.1 of the shareware game which both sync with this TAS say Super Android on the playfield but continue to list the game's official advertised name as Android.
If you look around the game, you'll notice it says Super Android in several locations. They just didn't change the name in all places, particularly where it wouldn't fit. It's important to note that this is not an identical table to Android.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (898)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1007
Nach wrote:
There is a debate as to when to stop exactly which you can see on our wiki. But going out of your way to show some info on who made the game, which is mostly please buy the full game advertisements?
Because the run already contains some entertainment and speed tradeoffs in order to demonstrate glitches and other elements of gameplay it made sense to me to write the high score to disk and from there add enough input to exit the game to show the credits which bring back nostalgia for those who played shareware games of the time. The history of what shareware looked like in that era is as fascinating to me as the run itself but I'm probably a minority so I'd say it's definitely a topic that's up for debate. The current submission file could be truncated at the point the end-of-ball bonus is counted but this would not save the score to disk; this may be of no consequence but it feels incomplete to me. My preference is to leave the game exiting input in but I'd understand if it needed to be removed based on viewer feedback. Thanks again for taking the time to review this, A.C. ******
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
dwangoAC wrote:
Nach wrote:
There is a debate as to when to stop exactly which you can see on our wiki. But going out of your way to show some info on who made the game, which is mostly please buy the full game advertisements?
Because the run already contains some entertainment and speed tradeoffs in order to demonstrate glitches and other elements of gameplay it made sense to me to write the high score to disk and from there add enough input to exit the game to show the credits which bring back nostalgia for those who played shareware games of the time.
I have 3 problems with this. 1) Why not just exit the game as soon as you start it and claim achieving your end goal in 2 seconds? 2) This requires TASing both the shareware and not shareware versions as it has different "credits" as you call it. Further, it means the table used is irrelevant. 3) This is not one of the 4 options we provide for ending a game.
dwangoAC wrote:
The history of what shareware looked like in that era is as fascinating to me as the run itself but I'm probably a minority so I'd say it's definitely a topic that's up for debate.
It's a nice topic onto itself, but we "TAS" games here, not demonstrate historical software anecdotes.
dwangoAC wrote:
The current submission file could be truncated at the point the end-of-ball bonus is counted but this would not save the score to disk; this may be of no consequence but it feels incomplete to me. My preference is to leave the game exiting input in but I'd understand if it needed to be removed based on viewer feedback.
I believe it needs to be truncated sooner.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Post subject: Credits or no credits? Viewer feedback appreciated!
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (898)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1007
Nach wrote:
1) Why not just exit the game as soon as you start it and claim achieving your end goal in 2 seconds?
Because this would not achieve the stated goal of bringing the android to life. :)
Nach wrote:
2) This requires TASing both the shareware and not shareware versions as it has different "credits" as you call it. Further, it means the table used is irrelevant.
To your point the shareware version contains significant differences from the registered version (including the credits) and thus I treat it as a completely different game. In fact, I intentionally chose the shareware version to avoid the difficult discussion currently going on around F-Zero regarding whether individual levels should be submitted as individual runs or if all levels (or in this case, tables) should be completed in a single run.
Nach wrote:
3) This is not one of the 4 options we provide for ending a game.
The rules state that the movie should "end when the last decisive action has been delivered" and "It must be able to reach the credits or end screen without the viewer needing to do anything". This additional stipulation compels me to provide enough input to "reach the credits" - while I agree that the shareware version contains advertising at the beginning of the credits it's definitely a credit roll as the developer's names are listed sequentially.
Nach wrote:
I believe it needs to be truncated sooner.
As the person judging the submission you have the most say over this but I would still appreciate some feedback from less biased viewers than ourselves on whether or not the credits are interesting and should be retained. As noted I am OK with the submission file being truncated if that is the preference of viewers so I'm looking forward to additional feedback on this topic. Thanks! A.C. ******
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Post subject: Viewer feedback appreciated!
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
dwangoAC wrote:
Nach wrote:
1) Why not just exit the game as soon as you start it and claim achieving your end goal in 2 seconds?
Because this would not achieve the stated goal of bringing the android to life. :)
Yes, but it also seems to clash with point 3 below.
dwangoAC wrote:
Nach wrote:
2) This requires TASing both the shareware and not shareware versions as it has different "credits" as you call it. Further, it means the table used is irrelevant.
To your point the shareware version contains significant differences from the registered version (including the credits) and thus I treat it as a completely different game. In fact, I intentionally chose the shareware version to avoid the difficult discussion currently going on around F-Zero regarding whether individual levels should be submitted as individual runs or if all levels (or in this case, tables) should be completed in a single run.
Does the registered version perhaps give an ending if the Android is brought to life? As for the F-Zero argument, it's rather different than the one we have here. This is more akin to to a game with multiple episodes. TASing each of the 6 Wolfenstien episodes separately is fine. Or Goodbye Galaxy which episode 1 is Secret of the Oracle, and part 2 The Armageddon Machine, which in that case, it's two completely different executables so you can't TAS them from a single program even. I wouldn't be worrying about one table or all tables here. In F-Zero's case, if a TAS only did Knight or only did Queen, and not all 3 we'd be fine. The problem is the run only does a single level of an episode. In Epic Pinball, no table leads directly into any other table, so it's a non issue. If this was 3D Ultra Pinball, then you'd have a point.
dwangoAC wrote:
Nach wrote:
3) This is not one of the 4 options we provide for ending a game.
The rules state that the movie should "end when the last decisive action has been delivered" and "It must be able to reach the credits or end screen without the viewer needing to do anything". This additional stipulation compels me to provide enough input to "reach the credits" - while I agree that the shareware version contains advertising at the beginning of the credits it's definitely a credit roll as the developer's names are listed sequentially.
The credits are reachable from the start though (see point 1), so I see no need to reach them here, as they're nothing special. I'd also have to double check, but couldn't that credits roll be reached within the game itself without exiting and not have the advertisements? But more to the point, the rules there are determining what completes the game and objectives. Most games have end credits when certain objectives are met. It is clear that Epic Pinball is not like that. Therefore your "credits" for Epic Pinball would be the screen showing your score.
dwangoAC wrote:
Nach wrote:
I believe it needs to be truncated sooner.
As the person judging the submission you have the most say over this but I would still appreciate some feedback from less biased viewers than ourselves on whether or not the credits are interesting and should be retained. As noted I am OK with the submission file being truncated if that is the preference of viewers so I'm looking forward to additional feedback on this topic.
As the person judging this run, I want feedback from others too. So chime in, don't be shy!
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Editor
Joined: 3/10/2010
Posts: 899
Location: Sweden
I say, end the file after entering the name, end the timing when the balls drain and end the encode when the credits have rolled.
Onyx3173
She/Her
Joined: 5/30/2010
Posts: 76
Location: Oregon, USA
I think the run should stay as-is but I can definitely see Nach's point about it too. I think the run would stay more entertaining the way it is as it's not too long already.
I am a figment of my imagination.
Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 570
Location: 33°07'41"S, 160°42'04"W
I like the run as it is now. The credits should be included.
creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
http://www.mediafire.com/file/c3woc60q3kt875y/dwangoAC__Epic_Pinball_in_00_05_07.53.mkv 47 MB, 640x480 @ 60 fps EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQmYw5XqX1Q 960x720 @ 30 fps, with scanlines in the low-res scenes
Joined: 2/19/2010
Posts: 248
I didn't enjoy this run much. I've never played the game, I couldn't follow what was going on, and I didn't feel the wow factor much at all, except with some of the 3-ball multiball stuff. And then it abruptly ends, with no warning. No vote. Seems I'm in the minority though...
NitroGenesis
He/Him
Editor, Experienced player (550)
Joined: 12/24/2009
Posts: 1873
rhebus wrote:
I didn't enjoy this run much. I've never played the game, I couldn't follow what was going on, and I didn't feel the wow factor much at all, except with some of the 3-ball multiball stuff. And then it abruptly ends, with no warning. No vote. Seems I'm in the minority though...
I watched this and I agree with you. I think pinball games aren't well suited for TASes.
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
Editor, Player (68)
Joined: 1/18/2008
Posts: 663
Well I think most of the Zelda runs should be voted no - especially any of the 3D games - but that's because I didn't play them much as a kid and when I played them later, I found them to be terrible games. At least for me, many runs are only fun to watch if I've played the game and have a fond remembrance of it, if it's from a series I've played that I have a fond remembrance of, or if the game is glitched to hell. (Is this feeling somewhat universal?) I remember the board I played the most in this game - Enigma - but I played Android second, and sucked royally...so it's neat to see a blast from the past and see it beaten thoroughly in a short amount of time. I'd spend this amount of time and have either lost or been close to losing... I'm not defending the run; rather, I am saying I completely understand your decision.
true on twitch - lsnes windows builds 20230425 - the date this site is buried
adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3584)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4738
Location: Tennessee
I didn't think a pinball TAS would be that interesting. It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining. I was entertained, thanks for making this TAS :) Yes vote.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Skilled player (1670)
Joined: 6/11/2006
Posts: 818
Location: Arboga, Sweden
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.
And now there are two genres of motion pictures that adelikat has used that description for! /me ducks
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
Joined: 2/19/2010
Posts: 248
At least for me, many runs are only fun to watch if I've played the game and have a fond remembrance of it, if it's from a series I've played that I have a fond remembrance of, or if the game is glitched to hell. (Is this feeling somewhat universal?)
No. There are definitely non-glitched TASes of games I never played which I very much enjoyed: Castlevania Aria of Sorrow 100% (this actually made me go and play AoS), SMB3 (any version; yes really I never played it), Biker mice from mars, Arkanoid. In fact I often prefer non-glitched TASes of games I haven't played, because it's easier to follow; and the wtf-ness of a game-breaking glitch is all the more powerful when you know how the game is supposed to work. eg although the Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance 30-second glitchfest is entertaining, I feel I'd enjoy it so much more by knowing exactly how much of the game he just skipped. Notable exception: Pokémon Yellow. One thing that can massively help bring a TAS to viewers who never played the game is a good commentary (audio or subtitle).
BigBoct
He/Him
Editor, Former player
Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 1692
Location: Tiffin/Republic, OH
The run, while clearly good in a technical sense, just didn't do it for me in an entertainment sense. I'm really not sure why; pinball has always been a lot of fun for me. I guess I just don't care to WATCH it as much as DO it. Meh vote. My two cents on the endpoint: The ending is extremely abrupt. Too much so, I think. What if, after successfully activating the android, you get a standard Game Over instead of (I think) skipping your other two balls, and also slowing the pace down so we can see that you're done?
Previous Name: boct1584
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player (898)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1007
boct1584 wrote:
...pinball has always been a lot of fun for me. I guess I just don't care to WATCH it as much as DO it.
I completely understand that. For me playing emulated pinball let alone watching it isn't nearly as good as playing the real thing no matter how good the simulator is, hence why I own 5 pinball machines at the moment (although I'm selling my beloved High Speed at the Pacific Pinball Expo on the weekend of October 1st). With that said, I do like that a pinball TAS is uniquely different than a TAS on platformers or RPG's and I like that no two runs will be identical as the number of possible "routes" are endless in contrast to many other games which have settled into the same tired route. To come right out and say it, I'm hoping that this run gets accepted and that it is subsequently obsoleted at some point with a run that completes the game in a completely different way so they can be compared and contrasted.
boct1584 wrote:
The ending is extremely abrupt.
It is still probable that a future run could align the ending of the physical systems tests with bringing the android to life which would give the run a much more defined ending but as I mentioned before that amount of luck manipulation is non-trivial given the current emulation speed limitations of JPC-RR so I wish anyone who attempts it the best of luck.
boct1584 wrote:
What if, after successfully activating the android, you get a standard Game Over instead of (I think) skipping your other two balls, and also slowing the pace down so we can see that you're done?
Hmmm.. it wouldn't look good at all to end the game by losing two balls in a row but perhaps it would be possible to justify losing a ball at a couple of points during the run to "warp" to the top of the playfield by virtue of the ball being placed back in the plunger lane. With that said I don't know if there would be a significant speed or entertainment advantage and even if all balls were lost to get the wavy "game over" text it still wouldn't be on the screen any longer than the current "Quit Y/N" text that this run triggers assuming the high score is still entered to save the score to disk and the game is exited to display the credits. Whether or not to do that is still a topic that's up for debate for which Nach is still soliciting feedback. Thanks for your well thought out comments! A.C. ******
I was laid off in May 2023 and could use support via Patreon or onetime donations as I work on TASBot Re: and TASBot HD. I'm dwangoAC, part of the senior staff of TASVideos as the Senior Ambassador and BDFL of the TASBot community; I post TAS content on YouTube.com/dwangoAC based on livestreams from Twitch.tv/dwangoAC.
Editor, Player (68)
Joined: 1/18/2008
Posts: 663
rhebus wrote:
At least for me, many runs are only fun to watch if I've played the game and have a fond remembrance of it, if it's from a series I've played that I have a fond remembrance of, or if the game is glitched to hell. (Is this feeling somewhat universal?)
No. There are definitely non-glitched TASes of games I never played which I very much enjoyed...
My point wasn't meant to be taken as a 100% unbending application of a limitation to every possible human, hence "somewhat." Surely there are runs I have enjoyed that I have not played and weren't glitched, but out of a random selection, if I haven't played it, if I don't have memories about it or if it isn't utterly broken, I am less likely to enjoy it. Re: abrupt ending - the run follows guidelines as laid out. Are we redefining credits? It's interesting how much things will be bent to make them _not_ work here. I don't see a problem.
true on twitch - lsnes windows builds 20230425 - the date this site is buried