Undaunted by his Hyper counterpart, Sonic and Tails take Robotnik to task in record time. This run represents an improvement of 02:14.32 over its previous version in real time, and is now sub-30 minutes. In in-game time, the improvement is of 01:28.48 over the previous run. Note that although neither Nitsuja nor Upthorn were actively involved in this improvement, they are listed as co-authors because their input comprises part of the movie, albeit in altered form.
Emulator used: Gens 11b + S3KCamhack + SolidityViewer + (partial)HitboxDisplay + LUA HUD for Genesis Sonic games

Game objectives

  • Ignores delays caused by bonus effects
  • Aims for fastest (primarily in-game) time
  • Takes Damage to save time
  • Abuses death
  • Abuses programming errors
  • Counts time spent dying
  • One player controls two characters
  • Contains (in-game) speed for entertainment trade-offs
  • Beats this joke submission

Comments

New tricks

Object placement manipulation

This technique debuted in the newgame+ run, but there it was done by luck instead of by design. But once HHS explained the principles behind it, I was able to perform it at will. The basic idea is to manipulate the next free object slot(s) so that a specific object loads into it. In most cases this won't accomplish anything useful; but in a few specific cases, this object may either be forcibly overwritten by another object (see Hydrocity 1 comments) or be mistaken for another object (see Angel Island and Carnival Night 2 comments).

Forced Tails Re-spawn

Once Tails' "despawns", you can press (or hold) any jump button in order to force him to re-spawn. This can save a considerable amount of time (up to 63 frames in the worst-case scenario), and it can be used even if you can't control Sonic. This can be done whenever RAM address 0xFFF708 (Tails CPU routine) is set to 2. This also applies to Sonic 2.

Flame dash slope glitch

This consists of using a flame dash into the ground to get stuck in it. It requires horizontal speed to get far enough in (and quickly enough) and sloped terrain of the type found only on Sandopolis. Sadly, despite being in several places in Sandopolis 1, none of them lead to useful shortcuts. Once stuck in the ground, Sonic will slide along the slope and zip once at the bottom, entering the slope. He will also most likely end up with an horizontal ground lock in place for a few frames, meaning left and right directions will only work on the air.

General Comments

As noted above, there is still input by Nitsuja and Upthorn in this movie. I have, however, edited all of it to match my personal 'style' of input.
Large amounts of real time were gained due to cut-scene skips, only one of which came with some in-game cost (see below). The new tricks mentioned above, as well as new uses of old tricks and several optimizations throughout the run all combine to the large improvements aforementioned.
This run is also the first one to put to heavy use the always present "(primarily in-game)" escape clause in the second objective; and this is related to the next-to-last objective, the "(in-game) speed for entertainment trade-offs". This trade off happened in Launch Base 2, where skipping the Knuckles cutscene and the mid-boss cause the full post-Launch Base 2 cutscene to run (albeit in glitched form) for its normal full length. The cutscene skip results in a net gain in real time over three times as big as the loss in in-game time from the longer cutscene. And it is a lot more entertaining to watch.
For this reason, there are two tables below: one with the in-game times, and the other containing the real-time savings.

In-Game Time Table

LevelNew time[1]Old time[1]Savings[2]
Hydrocity 10:30::260:33::05159
Hydrocity 2 death0:05::210:09::09228
Hydrocity 20:23::370:25::24107
Marble Garden 10:29::290:30::0738
Carnival Night 20:41::410:42::1130
IceCap 11:00::141:01::2571
Launch Base 10:31::550:37::03308
Launch Base 20:26::261:04::562310
post-Launch Base 2 cut-scene0:29::350:17::53-702
Mushroom Hill 10:32::500:46::15805
Mushroom Hill 20:34::050:37::39214
Sandopolis 11:39::161:45::51395
Sandopolis 21:09::471:28::201113
Lava Reef 11:03::231:04::2865
Lava Reef 20:21::400:21::411
Hidden Palace0:17::270:19::10103
Death Egg 11:04::031:04::4744
Death Egg 22:18::062:18::2620
Total[3]19:44::5721:13::265309

Real Time Table

DescriptionSavings[2]
In-game savings5309
Angel Island cut-scene skip284
Launch Base 2 cut-scene skip2962[4]
Launch Base 2 score tally-400[5]
Others-96[4][6]
Total8059[7]
[1] The value after the final colon pair indicates the in-game frame counter, and is restricted to the 0-59 range. It is updated every frame (except during lag frames), and increments the in-game second when resetting to zero.
[2] The values given are in frames. Positive is time gained, negative is time lost.
[3] This is total in-game time. Which means that there are over 10 minutes (!) of level loading times, score tallies and cutscenes in the movie.
[4] Estimate. The estimate was obtained by counting how many frames the in-game timer remains stopped during the Launch Base 2 cut-scene (using the previous version of the run as reference), while the "others" entry is the residual time left from this estimate.
[5] Crossing the 1-minute boundary means 500 frames are needed to tally up the time bonus (instead of 100 frames).
[6] Improved capsule hit in Hydrocity 2, improved death in Launch Base 1, longer transition on Mushroom Hill 1 (need to grab a fire shield), an additional lag frame somewhere before Launch Base 1, 2 frames "lost" from the 1-frame pause at the start of Sky Sanctuary, plus other minor stuff I am probably forgetting.
[7] This is total real time difference, obtained by comparing movie length of this run with that of the previous run.

Stage by stage comments

Angel Island

The transition cut-scene to Hydrocity has been cut short by an object placement manipulation trick. This trick was stumbled upon by mike89 when doing an unassisted 2-player speed-run; HHS figured out how it works and I implemented it without losing any time. It works as follows: when Tails brakes before the boss, the braking pattern is chosen so that the dust kicked up fills the first few object slots, preventing boss-area objects from using them. When Knuckles and the switch are loaded after the score tally, they will be loaded into these slots. The switch is loaded, in fact, in the exact same slot that Knuckles used at the start of the level -- this causes the switch to mistake itself for Knuckles and fire as soon as it is loaded, returning control to Sonic.
It is possible to force Tails to appear earlier at the very start of the level, in the Knuckles cut-scene. This isn't useful, though -- either you move too fast and Knuckles will leave the screen through the left, or you won't have control of Sonic for longer.

Hydrocity 1

The entire level reworked: faster start, faster route, better zip (courtesy of jumping to enter the wall) and better boss fight. Oh, and an object placement manipulation glitch to cut short the death at the start of the next level. Once again, Tails brakes so as to force the boss to load at the same slot as the walk-on-water object that was loaded earlier in the level; was being the keyword here (it got deleted during the zip). When the score tally starts, the boss object (still alive in memory) gets killed by the act 2 walk-on-water object before he can set the new screen boundaries for the transition. This kills Sonic, who was on the death row anyway...

Hydrocity 2

Another trick found by mike89 and put to good use by me; mike89 found it on the aforementioned 2-player speed-run, and posted a video about it as one of the bloopers.

Marble Garden 1

An improvement found by MrSweed and relayed to me by Sonikkustar. It is basically the same trick used in Hydrocity 1 for the better zip, but on the horizontal.

Carnival Night 2

Those damn balloons forced me to replay this entire level twice over. But thanks to the forced Tails respawn, I get him to arrive right in the nick of time to grab Sonic at the Knuckles cut-scene. By the way: were it not for the fact that I skipped Knuckles earlier in the level, it would be possible to trick the switch into thinking it is Knuckles in said cut-scene, with similar results as from the Angel Island trick.

IceCap

A slight optimization in Sonic' input saves 3 frames. The rest of the improvement is better use of Tails in the boss fight.

Launch Base 1

Faster entrance into the zip, much better boss fight and faster death. Sonic (or Tails) only needs to kill one of the Twin Hammer bosses in order to proceed, so you are treated to a glitched boss after.

Launch Base 2

Take the new zip courtesy of MrSweed and complement it with heavy off-screen work by Sonic and Tails: the result is that I glitch into the Knuckles' boss area, skipping the mid-boss, skipping the (extremely long) Knuckles cut-scene and glitching the hell out of the level. This is where the major speed for entertainment trade-off comes: the falling death egg cut-scene runs its full length (whereas it is glitched and faster in the previous version of the run), but the Knuckles cut-scene is about 4 times longer than this increase.
Warning: If you watch this level with a camera hack, be sure to turn it off by the time Sonic is reaching the start of the loopback, or Gens will crash.

Mushroom Hill 1

A more efficient version of the newgame+ zip. I use Tails (off-screen) to lift me over the last loop; I do this so that the loops in the next act will be broken in a good way.
Warning: If you watch this level with a camera hack, be sure to turn it off whenever Sonic is above ground level after the horizontal position underflows, or Gens will crash.

Mushroom Hill 2

There are several optimizations over the previous run in the level. The most notable is the use of Tails to maintain enough speed that I can skip the lifting machine at the end of the level. See, Hyper Sonic is not the only one that can do it...

Sandopolis 1

Traveling along the top of the level allows me to enter a wall and zip left, underflowing the horizontal position. Tails solo and Knuckles have a much better zip, but alas, Sonic can't use it. By the way: going faster or not waiting for Tails are both futile, because the sprite I must climb onto is too high up by the time Sonic gets there.

Sandopolis 2

I use extensive flame-dashing into slopes to create many new shortcuts. Sadly, I am temporarily without horizontal control of Sonic after each of these. Better use of Tails also gives quite an improvement at the end of the level, particularly at the boss: Robotnik's invincibility timer from the last hit I land before the Egg Golem closes up for the first time is still going when the Egg Golem opens up again. But on opening, it forces the hit box back on, and stops the timer at the current value, from where it will resume after the next hit.

Lava Reef 1

Same route for most of the level; the improvement comes from a different route at the very end, getting the bubble shield. This allows me to enter the ground and reach the boss faster. The bubble shield also allows me to kill the boss 13 frames faster.

Lava Reef 2

Talk about frame war with oneself...

Hidden Palace

Forcing Tails to respawn at the optimal time allows me to beat Knuckles before his music even begins.

Sky Sanctuary

There is a 1-frame pause at the start of the level to manipulate Mecha Sonic's pattern. The other option was a fight that was two seconds slower... Other than this, the level pause, the level is identical to the previous version of the run.

Death Egg 1

This level has changed due to small optimizations here and there, including forcing Tails to respawn earlier. The boss fight is also slightly faster.

Death Egg 2

Minor optimizations all around. I also save Tails at the end of the movie.

Other comments

This run is dedicated to Nach for nudging me into doing it.
Thanks goes to Nitsuja and Upthorn for their Sonic runs; to Orkal for his glitch videos; to HHS for his explanation of the Angel Island/Hydrocity transition glitches; to mike89 for his blooper videos; to MrSweed for the Marble Garden 1 and Launch Base 2 shortcuts; and to you for watching.
Suggested screenshot: frame 71270

Nach: Nice to see changes throughout the game. Excellent job on defeating the 30 minute time mark. Accepting.

OmnipotentEntity: Encoding.

marzojr
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FYI, OmnipotentEntity is encoding for the publication.
Marzo Junior
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boct1584 wrote:
Oh. I thought you meant "subtitles" as in "explanations about what exactly is going on in this movie."
I would have called that "commentary". :)
Player (36)
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The encode is complete, actually, I'm currently uploading to archive.org and making the rest of the things needed to publish. I'm probably not going to get done before I have to go to work, so it should be up in about 10 or 11 hours. (Assuming everything goes well.)
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
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I modified the encoding of video and no audio delays there, but I think in the second part if Link to video PART 2 The third part is in process
[18:51] <scrimpy> Oh, nothing [18:51] <mmarks> oh [18:51] <Nach> I think scrimpy is just jealous of you mmarks
Post subject: Movie published
TASVideoAgent
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This movie has been published. The posts before this message apply to the submission, and posts after this message apply to the published movie. ---- [1656] Genesis Sonic 3 & Knuckles by nitsuja, upthorn & marzojr in 29:51.20
NitroGenesis
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None of the "Watch now" buttons seem to be working, Archive.org apparently cant find the file to stream.???
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
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NitroGenesis wrote:
None of the "Watch now" buttons seem to be working, Archive.org apparently cant find the file to stream.???
It appears that archive.org didn't derive this movie yet as of now. So yes there is no file to stream yet. Which is weird, archive.org usually is fast with derived files. Keep an eye on the details page.
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mmarks encode isn't as nice-looking but the sound syncs up perfectly. The official YouTube encode is badly out-of-sync. Edit: Scratch that. Mmarks' part two is out-of-sync as well. :/ Nice work, Marzo. The Launch Base part was great. Edit x2: Screw the Launch Base... Sandopolis 2 was amazing!
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When I download the emulator movie file released with this publication, only marzojr's name is in the filename. However, the published run still lists Nitsuja and Upthorn as authors. Did we come to a consensus yet as to whether or not enough of their original input survives to be still given author credit on this movie? (No disrespect meant to either Nitsuja or Upthorn; they set the standards for what a great glitchy run of this game would be like.)
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
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(re: moozooh and mklip2001) I still see actually a lot of similarity between this run and the previous one (and even this one from 5 versions ago). There are lots of obvious differences too, more than some of the previous updates, but there are definitely parts that at least appear to have been left completely alone (e.g. almost all of AIZ and CNZ1). It's common for movies on this site to obsolete other very similar movies, but I think the idea is that in those cases the new author has made an attempt to improve the whole thing and if some parts ended up being basically identical then that's just how it is. I don't think that's exactly what's happened here... I think that at least for certain parts, the author chose to leave them mostly unchanged, rather than trying to improve every part of it as much as possible and happening to end up with similar results. I could be wrong on this but I kind of doubt that the previous versions were so close to perfection that the changes from a from-scratch redo wouldn't visibly permeate every part of it. In cases where a movie is created that contains significant amounts of input from another movie made by a different author (whether from hex editing or from re-entering it by watching the input display), I think it's appropriate that the new author either lists the previous author as co-author, or asks them for permission to not do that. For the record, I wouldn't mind not being listed as co-author... I think that's marzojr's choice at this point. But (while I really enjoyed watching this movie) I would also like to see a brand new run of this game, eventually.
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mklip2001 wrote:
When I download the emulator movie file released with this publication, only marzojr's name is in the filename. However, the published run still lists Nitsuja and Upthorn as authors. Did we come to a consensus yet as to whether or not enough of their original input survives to be still given author credit on this movie? (No disrespect meant to either Nitsuja or Upthorn; they set the standards for what a great glitchy run of this game would be like.)
When I published the movie, I left their names in the mkv files, but I didn't in the gmv file. It was an oversight, I apologize.
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marzojr
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nitsuja wrote:
There are lots of obvious differences too, more than some of the previous updates, but there are definitely parts that at least appear to have been left completely alone (e.g. almost all of AIZ and CNZ1).
And all of Sky Sanctuary; and a few bits and pieces here and there. I tried to improve on these, but kept coming short, so I decided to leave them alone; which is why I listed you both as coauthors. The GMV I sent, however, did have you and Upthorn listed as co-authors; it was a publisher oversight, as OmniPotentEntity stated.
Marzo Junior
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marzojr wrote:
Pointless Boy: I half feel that there should be additional encodes with the camera hack centered on Sonic and Tails, as well as the one with the HUD, just so people can see a little bit better what is going on.
I'm dumping this with camhack-only defs and with sprites on top. I don't think anything more is needed. But can I PLEASE be sure this upload won't be deleted as the non-camhacked one? I even would like to replace all SD encodes with such camhack and leave only one of 2 youtubers non-hacked for those who want to compare.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.