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Posted: 2/1/2010 3:01 AM
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kolechovski
Joined: 1/13/2006
Posts: 109
Copy-pasted from an old post...and posted in this thread since SO FAR, Grant seems necessary to access this glitch world... --------------------- Yesterday, while playing the game, normally for the most part, in the sunken temple, after climbing the stairs up off the top of the screen in the sinking section, I appeared on the map to the right of where I should have, climbing an invisible set of stairs. If I climbed down off the screen, I’d end up climbing down from the top of the area I should have arrived from. If I climbed up, Grant (who I was using at the time) would end up against the right edge of the screen, but could keep climbing up. If I climbed off the top, I would end up in a glitch world. It was possible to climb up or down in the glitch world and arrive on more glitchy screens. Random enemies would appear, usually glitchy. Candles, lanterns, and braziers would also appear in random places, dropping random powerups. The glitch world lacks any kind of floor or stairs of its own. Also, when first arriving, a Cyclops will be to the left, but will be initially unreachable. Taking different exits either left me in more glitchy places, or the game would crash, often with a black screen, but sometimes with a glitchy mess. One of the methods even sets me climbing down to where the Cyclops is. Even though there’s no floor, it can walk back and forth, screen wrapping if it goes off the edge. If it begins to charge, it never stops. If defeated, a ghost rises out of it, but with no coffins to go into, the red orb simply drops down, as the ghost continues rising. Both screen wrap indefinitely. Without a floor, it is impossible to collect the orb to complete the stage, because it must land before it can be collected. One of the screens has moving platforms. Unfortunately, the nearest platform stops just a very slight bit short of where I could possibly land on it, but I don’t know if you could land on moving platforms from stairs or not. There is also an enemy always in the way of the stairs, and I can’t beat it. Trevor has Boomerangs and can’t reach it. Grant has the axe, but when standing far back enough for them to whack the enemy on the way down, the axes simply disappear up off the top. I’m also down to my last hit, so I can’t ram through the enemy either, so I don’t know what would happen if I climbed off the bottom of that screen. Dying in the glitch world always caused me to respawn on the screen where the Cyclops is. Since there is no floor, I’d always begin falling and dying immediately, and there’s no breaking this cycle. It’s an automatic GAME OVER. Different candles and lanterns will still spawn in random places when respawning there. Has anyone ever found the glitch world? Any others? I don’t know if this was fixed in the USA version or not. I’ve also got another question. When fighting the Bone Dragon King, I quickly kicked its ass with Trevor throwing 3 Boomerangs. Its life bar stopped at 2 units, and it wouldn’t take any more damage. When I reached the end and started the battle, it still had only those 2 units left, so it was naturally an easy win. Is that second battle really supposed to be that easy? It was pretty ridiculous. Thanks for all help.
Life is like a box of chocolates-when you want peanut butter, all you get is coconut.
Posted: 2/1/2010 3:24 AM
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kolechovski
Joined: 1/13/2006
Posts: 109
Note that somewhere on my hard drive exist the save states involved with this glitch, but that might take some time to find. It's probably faster for you guys to produce this yourselves. Now a better explanation of the above post, and what I'm after. Clearly, quite a bit of testing needs to be done on certain parts. After many attempts, I finally succeeded at spawning Dracula on the first screen of the glitch world (bosses typically spawn off to the right). I died before I could make a save there or beat him. What I am wondering is how the mechanics are tied with Dracula and the ending. As you know, when you collect the orb after beating Dracula's final form, a special victory song begins, and then the ending runs. I am hoping to reproduce this in the glitch world, preventing any need to even enter Dracula's castle. if, however, beating Dracula in this stage simply ends the stage and advances you to the next (Draculas dying as a normal boss), then this is all likely a time-waster, no matter what parts you salvage. Here is a list of what needs to be discovered... 1. Will the ending begin if Dracula is killed in another stage? 2. Will Dracula go through all 3 forms in another stage, or will he die after his first form is beat? 3. Is accessing this glitch world doable in both the US and Jap versions? 4. Is Grant necessary to do it? So far, it will only seem to work with him, even though there's no obvious reason why he should be needed. 5. When approaching the Bone Dragon King for a second fight, the enemy lifebar resets to its health just before you reach it. Is this done by a check on your specific position, or is an invisible sprite loading when you get close. If it's an invisible sprite that resets the lifebar, then can it be spawned in the glitch world for a fast kill of the boss? After all, most other sprites seem to be spawnable at random there... 6. As you may already know, the glitch world lacks a floor, and the orb from beating a boss can only be picked up when it lands on a floor. The third phase of Dracula's battle should take care of this issue (if he goes through all 3 phases here). This means, that if this whole thing is doable, luck manipulations would also be needed to get platforms to appear in the correct positions to take advantage of this. Looking at the way it currently works, a solid platform is made after the moving platform ends. I see no reason this effect wouldn't work in the glitch world. All of these things must work as currently intended for this to be improvable. If anyone can prove that Grant isn't needed, then this is a Trevor-only run. And if this doesn't work out this way, it's pretty much just a useless novelty. So, who wanst to spend hours/days testing all this stuff? Anyone?
Life is like a box of chocolates-when you want peanut butter, all you get is coconut.
Posted: 2/1/2010 10:42 AM
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VANDAL
Experienced player (614)
Joined: 4/24/2005
Posts: 612
I've messed around with this glitch and it does work in both the US and Japanese versions of the game. Grant is required for this glitch to work. The way it can work (I assume there are other ways or at least one other way, as you describe) is using Grant to walk all the way up the stairs to the end step (just before going to the next screen) and then start to go up and in mid step, change to Trevor. You'll notice your alignment with the stairs is slightly off (you'll be above the stairs). It can be done the same way with Trevor but you must have Grant. You get the the bottom part of the stairs, start moving down and in mid animation, change to Grant and you should be slightly below the stairs. I'm recalling this all from memory and I could actually be remembering how to do it backwards but that's the gist of how the glitch works (you got to switch characters just before entering the next screen). Anyway, with your alignment off from the stairs, as long as there's nothing to stop you (platforms or enemies), you should be able to climb indefinitely into another area (by leaving the screen). The other area will look all glitched and garbled and honestly, I believe the layout will be random based on the time you enter the area. If you look closely, it's actually other areas' interiors of the game but all garbled. The more you climb into different areas, the more you may progress through the game's levels (you may get further or it may fluctuate from level to level). I've always wanted to really explore the areas and find out if it were possible to get to Dracula and defeat him and see if it does in fact complete the game but I've been really lazy and unmotivated. I might get around to figuring this out someday but not likely soon because I'm just not feeling the love anymore.
Posted: 2/1/2010 10:54 AM
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Bablo
Player (224)
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 399
I don't know how many people are aware of this, but I've been working on a Grant TAS a little. Here's my WIP. 623 frames ahead currently. I've been messing around with the stair glitches too. I was able to kill a boss in glitch room, but it wasn't possible to grab the orb because it needs to land on something first. It just kept looping the screen because there was no platform. So, yeah, I've been able to do only the same stuff as others have, nothing new. I don't believe it would be of any use. Anyway, about the WIP, I have pretty much killed every boss faster, which was a big surprise for me since they were already very fast fights. Also other little improvements in almost every stage. Killing the first boss with III holy water turned out to be like a second faster. Also cursed Grant fight was faster. I haven't progressed in a while since I haven't been able to do anything fancy with the second mummy fight. Once that's out of the way, I should finish it in no time. Although, I'm most likely going to redo from scratch because I've missed some little things.
<adelikat> I've been quoted with worse
Posted: 2/1/2010 11:46 AM
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VANDAL
Experienced player (614)
Joined: 4/24/2005
Posts: 612
Interesting. Yeah, my Grant TAS isn't anything all too great, especially compared to today's standards. I was a really inexperienced TASer when I worked on it, on each version (the latest version is no exception as well as the other CV3 runs on the site). I didn't measure frames between hits; everything was done visually. I didn't measure fastest means of progressing through the levels. I also didn't test nearly enough things like how many hearts would I need for each boss and if it would end up being convenient enough to get the hearts and not lose time. I've since learned a lot more about TASing but it's funny how one's motivation can just decline even though they know they can do better. Sorry, I don't mean to get philosophical. Instead, I think I'll list a few things I've learned that may or may not be helpful. One thing I've noticed is that you're able to hit the bosses 1 frame faster per hit allowed if there's a sub-weapon in use, on screen (that's what I remember, anyway). Another thing is combining hits to occur on the same frame. This actually may not be useful because it tends to hit less in the long run unless it ends up not mattering (if the boss ends up going down in the same number of hits, it would end up being faster this way). What I mean is, say you throw a cross before the boss comes to life (assuming you're trying to hit him as soon as possible) and then you also swing your whip to strike on the same frame as the cross. It'll end up doing less damage than it would if you were to wait a frame or two for the whip to hit. Another thing in the fight with the Frankenstein monster, there's that breakable brick above that drops a meat. It not only drops a meat but also like 3 little rocks. Those rocks actually can do some damage (I can't remember how much but I think it's depends on if all the rocks get involved). Might be useful. One of the last things I can think of is how many frames it takes for your life to be recounted up based on how much you're missing at the end of the level. That's another thing that should be taken into account. If I remember anything else, I'll be sure to let you know. I've watched your WIP so far and I have to say it's looking great. I can see you really worked at getting things to work in your favor, enemy placement-wise (among other things). I also like what you do during the auto-scrolling areas. I'm looking forward to the finished run so best of luck.
Posted: 2/1/2010 12:17 PM
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Bablo
Player (224)
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 399
Thanks for your input, VANDAL. I'll have to test that Frankenstein trick. I don't remember if I've tested how much time it takes to recover life at the end of stage...really should test that. But I know the orb drops at random frames, depending on your position. I gained a fair amount of frames manipulating this. Also another little optimization is not to grab ladders asap with Grant. His walking speed is only 1pixel/frame when grabbing the ladder, and 1,25pixel/frame normally. It's easy to miss when doing stuff only visually. If you can think of anything else, do post. You have a good insight at this game.
<adelikat> I've been quoted with worse
Posted: 2/1/2010 9:16 PM
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VANDAL
Experienced player (614)
Joined: 4/24/2005
Posts: 612
Another thing to consider is testing boss fights beforehand so that you know how many hearts you're going to need. But when you do this you'll also want to know if getting certain hearts would actually be faster than if you were to skip them and remove an axe hit here and there. Look at the level with the 3 boss clump. It's apparent you're going to need a lot of hearts but a lot of the early hearts require you to jump which has you lose some ground. If you find out you don't need those hearts then you should skip them. This sounds like a real pain of going back and forth between the level and the boss fight but if you have the boss fight test already done then all you really have to do is find out where you shouldn't throw an axe.
Posted: 2/1/2010 10:28 PM
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Bablo
Player (224)
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 399
Heart management won't really be a problem if I'm going to redo the run. Then I'll just have to test which hearts are fastest to obtain.
<adelikat> I've been quoted with worse
Posted: 2/14/2010 7:11 PM
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kolechovski
Joined: 1/13/2006
Posts: 109
It sounds like there's another variation of the stair climbing glitch (or that was the general means to do it). In the instance I proposed, changing characters isn't necessary, though it seems Grant must be active to get up the stairs fast enough to avoid the automatic play from taking over (anyone else gets caught just a moment too soon). From there, Grant simply keeps climbing up into the glitch world. I have not succeeded in getting that glitch world to spawn any kind of background other than the one first presented, though I do get around in it a bit to encounter moving platforms and such. As for the Dracula thing, here is what I am hoping... DREAM ROUTE- You spawn Dracula to the right of the first screen in the glitch world (that's where I confirmed it), preferably with only 2 life bars if possible. Go through each of the phases of his battle. Although the glitch world lacks a floor, remember that in the 3rd phase, blocks start lifting up and moving around. From what I've watched closely in the real fight, the lack of floor here shouldn't make any difference. Blocks should start appearing and moving about, and when they land, they should create solid floor where they do. This would allow 2 things to happen-the orb can land on a middle floor block, and you can get off the invisible stairs at a left side block. I'm pretty sure you'll need another block in the middle as a stepping stone (so some techniques might negate the need for this). Finally, I'm hoping that grabbing Dracula's orb counts as beating the game (that the game end is specially tied to him instead of the stage). I have another question about glitch worlds. Watch the first Grant TAS for FCE. In the pendulum section of Dracula's tower, Grant spawns a glitch block with stairs (something that for some reason isn't repeated in the later TASes, though I see no reason why). I don't know anything about how he did it there, but could there be a way to do it, so that the stairs align with the block? If so, this should give access to another glitch world.
Life is like a box of chocolates-when you want peanut butter, all you get is coconut.
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