Submission Text Full Submission Page

Game objectives

  • Emulator used: Mupen64 re-recording v8
  • Aims for fastest time
  • Abuses programming errors
  • Takes damege to save time

Improvements over the previous run (frames saved overall)

Lakitu Skip

Unchanged. (0)

BLJ to BitDW

Unchanged. (0)
      

BitDW / Bowser 1

Unchanged. (0)

Side-BLJ to basement

1 frame saved. We reduced 1 frame of Mario's walk. (1)

DDD skip

1 frame saved. We reduced 1 frame of Mario's walk. (2)

BitFS

1 frame saved. We reduced 1 frame of the 0 speed state. (3)

Bowser 2

Unchanged. (3)

After BitFS

Unchanged. (3)

Side-BLJ to BitS

Unchanged. (3)

BitS / Bowser 3

Unchanged. (3)

Frames saved in total: 3

Comments

We made all those weird camera angles to make the run more entertaining for you. We hope you enjoy our TAS! ^^

Special Thanks


Nahoc: Added YouTube module.
adelikat: Alright, I guess I'll take this one, I haven't had poop thrown at me in awhile.
adelikat: Accepting of publication as an improvement to the currently published movie. Details here.
Nahoc: Processing...

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This TAS made me physically ill to an extent that I haven't experienced since watching Cloverfield. The camera controls were nauseating and the action was impossible to follow. I couldn't tell what was going on even though I've seen every other SM64 TAS published on this site. There have been times in the past when minor improvements were loudly derided because of questionable stylistic choices, and I voted yes on them all, not willing to impose my aesthetic sensibilities on the community. But this movie made me want to vomit. I just voted no, for the first time ever.
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Voted yes, don't really care about the camera angles. Then again, I didn't notice the camera work in the earlier movie as a factor either. What I do care about is that it isn't a carbon copy of the preceding movie.
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AngerFist wrote:
If this doesn't get published, then we should revert a few super mario bros (nes and N64) runs cause many of them improved prior runs by a few mere frames. Some of them actually had bad camera angles and bad "style" but still were accepted. I definitely vote yes because it improves the current published run. Yeah, the camera handling was a bit annoying but not to the extent for me to vote no.
I agree. Why should those be published and not this one? If someone gets a world record time in a 100m race by just a tiny fraction of a second, they don't get denied the record because the judge didn't like the way the runner moved his arms.
ALAKTORN
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Pointless Boy wrote:
I couldn't tell what was going on even though I've seen every other SM64 TAS published on this site.
sorry to say this, but I can't interpret that any other way than to think you're pretty dumb "What I do care about is that it isn't a carbon copy of the preceding movie." ^this imo is a good argument for accepting it, the different camera angles I felt were worse than the normal ones, but in no way bad, they gave the movie a unique feeling and I liked that
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I personally think the goal of the site should be to feature the best movie to a general audience of 10,000+ instead of presenting something "different" to the 100 or so people who constantly follow the Mario 64 TASing scene. You're welcome to disagree.
ALAKTORN
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Kirkq wrote:
I personally think the goal of the site should be to feature the best movie to a general audience of 10,000+ instead of presenting something "different" to the 100 or so people who constantly follow the Mario 64 TASing scene. You're welcome to disagree.
no point in having older runs still up then? if they're kept there to be watched, making each movie different to one another makes sense to me
mklip2001
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I know at least one other person in this thread brought up the comparison to the Ninja Gaiden 2 improvement by xipo that was rejected. I think that's a really good example to consider here. With that run, there was one technical improvement, but then the rest of the run was stylistically more annoying. It's sort of like how wobbling has lost its general appeal in TASes since it's too often used as a substitute for creative stylistic choices. As a result, the style of the NG2 run came off as lazy.* On the other hand, as much as some of us disagree with the style of this run, that style had work put into it. This wasn't just somebody trying to do filler; these camera choices were deliberate. I don't agree with the rationale behind their choices, but I acknowledge that they thought about presentation, and I applaud their efforts. I feel that this makes this run more publish-worthy than the NG2 run. In other words, I disagree with the authors of this run about style, but I'm very glad that they put effort into making a presentation they wanted to see. That, together with their technical proficiency with this run, makes me vote Yes. * I don't mean to be too harsh on the NG2 run, but I needed to make a point for comparison. xipo, you have shown yourself to be a very good TASer, and I really respect the work you did while you were submitting movies here.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
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Aqfaq wrote:
I think the camera work was playful. Voting yes.
This is interesting and maybe a bit telling, coming from someone who found a 10-frame improvement to a one-minute TAS and didn't submit it because it wasn't different enough... I haven't watched it yet, but from what I've read adelikat has a tough, poop-filled job ahead.
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SaxxonPike wrote:
I agree. Why should those be published and not this one? If someone gets a world record time in a 100m race by just a tiny fraction of a second, they don't get denied the record because the judge didn't like the way the runner moved his arms.
TAS is more analogous to, say, racewalking I think. The fastest person wins, but it is possible to be disqualified for poor form. Or peraps some people would prefer to think of it like moguls skiing? Speed is measured and important in the final score, but competitors are also judged on technical quality and style. In any case you could compare it to whatever you wanted! TAS is like a lot of bees! There's a lot of them!
Kirkq wrote:
I personally think the goal of the site should be to feature the best movie to a general audience of 10,000+ instead of presenting something "different" to the 100 or so people who constantly follow the Mario 64 TASing scene. You're welcome to disagree.
I think this is a reasonable stance to take. A cursory glance at the youtube comments for this run tells me the general audience doesn't seem to care one way or the other though. I think I read one lukewarm comment and one vaguely positive one specifically about the camera. Everybody else is busy talking about 2 frames and cakes being delicious or something. If we take this thread to be indicative of a general audience's opinion, the sentiments are a lot more focused, mixed, and hyperbolic, clearly.
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Inspired by Inzult's post above, I went ahead and compiled some simple statistics from the comments in the youtube thread. I categorized each post I could possibly construe as expressing some kind of opinion on the run into one of four categories: Pos-No-Mention: Positive comment on the run; no mention of camera angles. Pos-Mention: Positive comment on the camera angles in particular. Neg-No-Mention: Negative comment on the run; no mention of camera angles. Neg-Mention: Negative comment on the camera angles in particular. All posts observed fit neatly into one of these categories, or clearly expressed no opinion (either argument between TASers, confusion from youtube users who are unfamiliar with TASes, explanations in response to the preceeding, or irrelevant exclamations regarding cake). Here is the breakdown: Pos-No-Mention: 14 Pos-Mention: 3 Neg-No-Mention: 0 Neg-Mention: 1 I agree that wider-audience appreciation is a good metric to go by. I'll let these results speak for themselves as to whether or not this movie qualifies on that axis. EDIT: It should also be noted that as of the time of this writing, the video has 1680 views. If we assume that 95% of those views are unique (I have no idea how good an assumption that is; I know I watched it twice) then 3.4% (55) of the viewers were motivated to log into youtube and press the 'like' button, while 0% (0) of the viewers were similarly motivated to press the 'dislike' button.
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SaxxonPike wrote:
AngerFist wrote:
If this doesn't get published, then we should revert a few super mario bros (nes and N64) runs cause many of them improved prior runs by a few mere frames. Some of them actually had bad camera angles and bad "style" but still were accepted. I definitely vote yes because it improves the current published run. Yeah, the camera handling was a bit annoying but not to the extent for me to vote no.
I agree. Why should those be published and not this one? If someone gets a world record time in a 100m race by just a tiny fraction of a second, they don't get denied the record because the judge didn't like the way the runner moved his arms.
I'm still waiting for the actual examples to back up the claim (ie. that in the past runs have been accepted which improved the previous only by a few frames and had worse camera angles). I'm not saying there aren't examples. I just don't remember any, nor has any actual example been brought up so far.
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Nice work! :D But why 3 frames? Anyway, YES!
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"Warp wrote:
I'm still waiting for the actual examples to back up the claim.
Find them yourself.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
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AngerFist wrote:
Warp wrote:
I'm still waiting for the actual examples to back up the claim.
Find them yourself.
I can only conclude that there are no such examples and hence there is no precedent for this situation, and thus arguing "it has been done before" is invalid.
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Having watched it now, I think it ought to be published. The camera angles didn't bother me (except maybe in BitDW) and they made BitFS seem new and fun (especially the fight). I'd also like to support a bit of creativity and change in a game that's seen a some very similar TASes. I wouldn't rate it significantly higher or lower in terms of entertainment, but it's different. I don't see it being more or less confusing to new viewers than the previous published movie, either.
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Why did no one put up this big of a fuss with Rikku's camera angles? He abused the hell out of going in and out of Mario cam. His stylistic choices never bothered me other than the rattling camera, but I don't think even THAT is a reason to reject it (and apparently, neither do most people, since his runs were published). So, yeah, it's time to just accept and publish this, IMO.
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Good job improving the super optimized run by 3 frames! So what if it is a small improvement or that it is not noticeable. That should never a reason to reject. I didn't care for most of the camera angles in the run. I guess I prefer to see what Mario is doing. Near the end of BitS, I liked the camera angle going up the double spinning elevators because it was clear that Mario jumped on the post. But I don't think it was the camera angles were that bad overall, and I agree that we should experiment with different camera angles to make the run more entertaining. A weak yes vote from me.
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Personman wrote:
I went ahead and compiled some simple statistics from the comments in the youtube thread.
Getting statistics from youtube isn't very useful as people aren't comparing with the currently published run there. People who mentioned camera angles here are specifically comparing the angles in this run with the ones in the published run.
SaxxonPike wrote:
AngerFist wrote:
If this doesn't get published, then we should revert a few super mario bros (nes and N64) runs cause many of them improved prior runs by a few mere frames. Some of them actually had bad camera angles and bad "style" but still were accepted.
Why should those be published and not this one?
Not all movies that are faster than the published TAS are accepted. Some have been rejected because of stylistic choices, like this one: http://tasvideos.org/1654S.html.
Noxxa
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I watched the run now, I liked the new camera choices, personally. Yes vote.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Baxter wrote:
Personman wrote:
I went ahead and compiled some simple statistics from the comments in the youtube thread.
Getting statistics from youtube isn't very useful as people aren't comparing with the currently published run there. People who mentioned camera angles here are specifically comparing the angles in this run with the ones in the published run.
First, that's not entirely true -- a few of the commenters were explicitly comparing to the previous run, being subscribers to the relevant youtube channels. Second, that's not the issue I was addressing -- Kirkq said
Kirkq wrote:
I personally think the goal of the site should be to feature the best movie to a general audience of 10,000+ instead of presenting something "different" to the 100 or so people who constantly follow the Mario 64 TASing scene. You're welcome to disagree.
which is basically the *opposite* of your point -- the experiment was specifically to see whether a general audience was disturbed by the camera angles in the *absence* of prior experience with the run. Of course, you could argue that viewers with no prior experience don't know what they're missing, and it's our job to make sure they get the very best. But a lot of people have been making very strong claims that the camera is 'nauseating', or 'ruins' the run, or renders it too confusing to enjoy, and I think it's pretty clear from the youtube comments that that is not an opinion widely held outside of this forum. Of course, the run hasn't been well publicized yet, and 18 is an admittedly small sample size compared to the tens of thousands of potential viewers Kirkq predicts. But on the other hand, 17:1 is a pretty significant result, and I see no real reason why this sample, small though it be, shouldn't be roughly representative of the outside viewership at large.
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Personman wrote:
Of course, the run hasn't been well publicized yet, and 18 is an admittedly small sample size compared to the tens of thousands of potential viewers Kirkq predicts. But on the other hand, 17:1 is a pretty significant result, and I see no real reason why this sample, small though it be, shouldn't be roughly representative of the outside viewership at large.
I recommend reading this: http://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728 But the main point is, to tell what the outside world thinks, you need a random sampling. In this case are these 18 people a random sampling? Or were they perhaps all linked to from an SM64 forum, and therefore all particularly like the game? Larger numbers usually help provide a random sampling, but not always. For example, stopping people on the street and asking them if they'd like to participate in a poll sharing their opinion about people who share their opinion automatically will consist of people willing, since the people who don't want to, never entered your poll, and ignored you.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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Personman wrote:
Of course, you could argue that viewers with no prior experience don't know what they're missing, and it's our job to make sure they get the very best.
Yes, this is basically my point. So even if it is representative of the outside viewership at large, they don't know what they're missing.
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Nach: I've read How to Lie with Statistics ^^ My overly formal tone about the whole thing was meant in fun; I'm not making any claims that these numbers will be borne out over thousands. However, it seems silly to complain that these people might like SM64 too much -- I'm pretty sure all the people in this thread complaining about the camera angles like SM64 quite a bit too, so if anything it seems like that would be a biasing factor *towards* accepting the hypothesis that people in general don't mind the camera angles. And of course, the voting and forum commenting process are if anything far less scientific than the silly thing I did at youtube, and that's what every judgment ever is based on, so... Baxter: The problem with that stance is that if TASers do in fact have some sort of tendency misjudge what the general public will like, we'd never know -- we just keep assuming that we as the experts know best, and that any public praise for a run we find suboptimal arises from 'not knowing what they're missing'. At some point you have to accept that people actually like what they say they like. Maybe 17 youtube commenters aren't enough to convince you, but consider this: the overwhelming tendency of internet comments is to be critical. Time and again negative comments in forum threads outweigh positive ones, even as Yes votes far outnumber No votes (see, for example, this thread). It's perhaps a corollary of Penny Arcade's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory. When things on the internet bother people, they complain! Loudly! And yet, of nearly two thousand people who've seen the movie, only one (ONE!) has been moved to say something mildly negative about the camera angles, and no one has clicked the dislike button. I'm not trying to argue that this movie is more aesthetically pleasing than the previous one (I think it is, but whatever). I'm trying to argue that accepting this clear 3-frame improvement over a published run is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to result in some sort of calamitous mass exodus away from TASvideos by a nauseated public, or to fewer people showing it to their friends, or any other bad outcome from the perspective of the site's reputation or popularity. As Kirkq argued, we shouldn't be publishing what a few people in this forum think looks the best. We should be bringing the latest and greatest SM64 run to an adoring public, and that's what this is.
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1. TASvideos not only deals with frame wars, but also entertainment. That's why when voting, voting-capable users are given three options and the capability to explain why they have done so. Camera issues, and actually ANY aestethic issue with the run, is a valid reason to vote it negatively. There's a notable rejections page precisely because of this. "Faster" may not be better, and may be in a different category altogether (Mega Man comes to mind). 2. Anyone else see a parallel between this run and the 3DS launch? I swear, if nobody had spoken about camera angles in the submission...
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Personman: Well said, you've certainly given me what to think about. However, when players say the video makes them feel like they need to vomit from it, I wonder if we should perhaps dig a bit deeper.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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