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Posted: 11/10/2012 2:33 AM
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nanogyth
Player (65)
Joined: 4/21/2011
Posts: 232
presjpolk is working on an RTA of this and he ran into a glitch. At one point the ship he needs to fight is already defeated. I was able to reproduce this by casting a spell in the same spot he did.
Posted: 11/10/2012 2:53 AM
(Edited: 11/10/2012 6:23 AM)
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PresJPolk
Joined: 9/21/2012
Posts: 11
Location: Northern Virginia
nanogyth wrote:
presjpolk is working on an RTA of this and he ran into a glitch. At one point the ship he needs to fight is already defeated. I was able to reproduce this by casting a spell in the same spot he did.
I have a theory on this: The ships in Ambrosia will not auto-attack you. I suspect they're not 'real' pirate enemies, but specially coded ones. And they have a ship pre-spawned beneath them, that you just can't get on board unless the monster above it is gone. BUT, if you have the map regenerated somehow, apparently by casting a spell, it flips the order of the items on that square, and the ship ends up on top. Sounds to me like the fixed pirates in Ambrosia were themselves coded to use an in-game glitchy treatment of two things on the same square, and we're just breaking that glitch to act differently. EDIT: therefore, I wonder if hitting the Status menu would also trigger it. Or... whether casting a spell/hitting Status would influence monster AI in Exodus Castle. Worth trying. EDIT 2: The game decides which to put on top, the ship or the fake-pirate, when that square is scrolled on screen. Scroll back and forth and it occasionally will give you the ship on top. So stupid simple.
Posted: 11/10/2012 6:19 AM
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PresJPolk
Joined: 9/21/2012
Posts: 11
Location: Northern Virginia
The enemy freezing is not the Time Lord. It's going to the status screen. If you go to the status screen, hit b to exit, then hit the D pad, then enemies on the current submap (only works on submaps such as towns, castles, and I assume Ambrosia) will NEVER MOVE AGAIN until you let go of the D pad. So broken. But broken in a weird way I don't honestly blame Ponycanyon for not catching. It was only a stroke of luck that I realized the difference between what the TAS does and what I typically do in live runs: the TAS moves optimally. It never let go of the D pad. Once I did the same, boom, jackpot. You can even run into the wall continuously, just standing there banging into it, standing right below a high-level Castle Exodus monster, and never get attacked. Here's the highlight.
Posted: 11/11/2012 7:33 AM
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PresJPolk
Joined: 9/21/2012
Posts: 11
Location: Northern Virginia
Was trying runs and it turns out that the ship glitch in Ambrosia isn't QUITE as reliable as I thought. It just wasn't glitching tonight, and I had to go to the Shrine of Wisdom and come back before it would. So.... there's still a mystery there.
Posted: 11/17/2012 1:18 AM
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nanogyth
Player (65)
Joined: 4/21/2011
Posts: 232
Finally found something that changes the number of enemies killed by UNDEAD. Seems to depend in some way on the overworld tile that the battle happens on. Now to find tiles that hit all 8 (should be ~%10) and see if it is constant battle to battle. zip of 2 fm2s with different kills at end
Posted: 11/18/2012 9:14 AM
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PresJPolk
Joined: 9/21/2012
Posts: 11
Location: Northern Virginia
nanogyth wrote:
Finally found something that changes the number of enemies killed by UNDEAD. Seems to depend in some way on the overworld tile that the battle happens on. Now to find tiles that hit all 8 (should be ~%10) and see if it is constant battle to battle. zip of 2 fm2s with different kills at end
Wow, it's not that each monster gets a fixed chance to survive it? That'd be useful to know!
Posted: 12/10/2014 5:14 PM
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nanogyth
Player (65)
Joined: 4/21/2011
Posts: 232
The RTA has made some progress with this game, 32:31. So I'm going to update mine as well. I need to add ship glitch and status glitch (no more time lord). I'm going to add a lit dungeon, so that will be a little more entertaining. Final battle will be a missile barrage instead of poisoning everything, which will hopefully be less anti-climatic. I have a better understanding of the RNG, so all the grind battles can be faster. But spinning the RNG takes a while, so the out of battle looks slower even though its an overall time savings. The RNG is at 00BA. It advances to the lower byte of 17*RNG + 23. RNG effects spells and the number of mobs (which should be 8 to maximize xp/minimize total battles needed). The spell I'm interested in is Undead. It cycles the RNG, does 255 damage if the upper byte of 100*RNG is less than 75, then cycles the RNG again; for each mob. The RNG cycles with spells, movement, and pressing the B button. Overlap between the two should give a battle I'm looking for (8 undead mobs, 1 spell kill) twice every 256 RNG. This can leave me spinning the RNG 128 times out of battle, ~600frames, 10 seconds. That is pretty close to the time to cast the spell a second time (and the second cast might not finish the battle anyway). Mob type is based on the frame counter, which is independent of the RNG and never more than 3 frames away. Mob number chart (two columns of number and shape). Shape is there to help me know where in the pattern I am. 
7 11111011  5 01110110
8 11111111  4 01110010
7 11111011  4 01100110
7 01111111  3 01100010
6 01111011  4 01100110
7 11111110  3 01100010
6 11111010  3 01100100
7 11110111  2 01100000
6 11110011  2 01000100
7 11101111  1 01000000
8 11111111  2 11000000
8 11111111  3 11000001
7 01111111  4 11001001
6 01111101  5 11011001
6 01111110  5 11011001
5 01011110  6 11011011
Undead chart (read across then down). *=8 kills, .=4+kills 
f9* a0. b7* 3e. 35* 9c. 73* ba  71* 98  2f* 36  ad* 94  eb* b2
e9* 90. a7* 2e. 25* 8c. 63* aa  61* 88  1f* 26  9d* 84  db* a2
d9* 80. 97* 1e. 15* 7c. 53* 9a  51* 78  0f* 16  8d* 74  cb* 92
c9* 70. 87* 0e  05. 6c  43. 8a  41. 68  ff. 06. 7d  64  bb  82
b9  60  77  fe  f5  5c  33  7a  31  58  ef  f6. 6d  54  ab  72
a9  50  67  ee  e5  4c  23  6a  21  48  df  e6. 5d  44  9b  62
99  40  57  de  d5  3c  13  5a  11  38  cf  d6. 4d  34  8b  52
89  30  47  ce  c5  2c* 03  4a. 01  28. bf  c6. 3d* 24. 7b* 42
79* 20  37* be  b5* 1c  f3* 3a  f1* 18. af* b6. 2d* 14. 6b* 32
69* 10  27* ae  a5* 0c  e3. 2a  e1. 08. 9f. a6. 1d. 04. 5b  22
59  00  17  9e  95  fc  d3  1a  d1  f8. 8f  96. 0d  f4. 4b  12
49  f0  07  8e  85  ec  c3  0a  c1  e8  7f  86  fd  e4  3b  02
39  e0  f7  7e. 75  dc  b3  fa  b1  d8  6f  76  ed  d4  2b  f2
29  d0  e7  6e. 65  cc  a3  ea  a1  c8  5f  66  dd  c4  1b  e2
19  c0  d7  5e. 55  bc  93  da  91  b8  4f  56  cd  b4  0b  d2
09  b0  c7  4e. 45  ac. 83  ca  81  a8  3f  46  bd  a4  fb  c2
Posted: 12/17/2014 6:13 AM
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nanogyth
Player (65)
Joined: 4/21/2011
Posts: 232
some rng data I'm using for battle planning. python script battle chart I made for the RTA. wind chart WIP
Posted: 1/11/2015 8:29 PM
Post subject: sub 19
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nanogyth
Player (65)
Joined: 4/21/2011
Posts: 232
New WIP I'm going to look into getting a better moon counter on ambrosia exit. Right now I have to mash B 16 times for the moongate to get to exodus castle and then another 16 getting to 1 pirate. If I could shift the moon cycle to be 0, then the 1 pirate would be 0 as well. (looping from 32) The moon and rng counters increment together most of the time. The rng counter can be shifted on town exit and in battles. Right now I like the mob setups for the town exits I have. But fights are 12x8 and a 4, so that can be changed a bit. The 32 B presses are only costing ~200 frames, and its possible all attempts to save those would cost more at other places.
Posted: 1/17/2015 2:31 AM
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TheAxeMan
Ambassador, Experienced player (696)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
This looks pretty fast. Is it possible that doing the moon advances earlier could get you better luck on undead? You often need to cast it twice to finish the enemies and there is one time where you use missile to increment rng (I assume that's why you do that). Even adding another cycle could decrease overall time if I am understanding this right. 2015 should be a good year for Ultima, I am going to finish my NES Ultima 4 run soon...
Posted: 1/18/2015 3:28 AM
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nanogyth
Player (65)
Joined: 4/21/2011
Posts: 232
TheAxeMan wrote:
This looks pretty fast. Is it possible that doing the moon advances earlier could get you better luck on undead? You often need to cast it twice to finish the enemies and there is one time where you use missile to increment rng (I assume that's why you do that). Even adding another cycle could decrease overall time if I am understanding this right.
There are three places on the 256 rng cycle that can get the single round. Two are back to back, but 64 and 96 advance gaps to/from the third. Advancing the rng in sosaria is slow, ~6 frames. So second cast (~200 frames) is often faster. I might be able to throw a dagger instead of casting missile. But it'd have to miss, otherwise it'd advance the rng again rolling damage. (missile is autohit, so just rolls for damage) I'll also look into ducking into an extra town. It takes ~200 frames, but could skip a dry spell. Royal City is kinda on the way to Yew from Fire.
TheAxeMan wrote:
2015 should be a good year for Ultima, I am going to finish my NES Ultima 4 run soon...
:)
Posted: 7/7/2015 4:59 PM
Post subject: New To TAS, Considering Ultima: Exodus
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aenima8669
She/Her
Joined: 7/7/2015
Posts: 7
Hi, everyone. First, I want to say that I am floored by what you people do. I sat down a few days ago to mess around with Super Mario Bros. (I'm familiar enough with the site to know that there's ZERO chance that I'd come remotely close to any runs, but it was still a game I'm very familiar with) and Castlevania. I also knew that the actual playing of the game accounted for a small percentage of the time it takes to make a good TAS and that most of the time is spent preparing and planning. Again, I was just messing around, but it made a few things abundantly clear. What you guys/girls do is remarkable. Anyway, like anyone who sees something remarkable, my thought has become, "I want to try that." Ultima: Exodus is, believe it or not, one of my favorite games on NES; it was the first RPG I ever played and it really wasn't that bad for its time--especially since it's a port of a game made in 1983. Anyway, I've seen the TAS that is up here on the site, and the only conceivable improvement I can see is skipping the Time Lord conversation. I never knew the Time Lord stopped enemy movements in Exodus Castle, and I know I've gotten through it before by taking place in only one fight. The spell "Rot" reduces enemy HP to 1, allowing something as weak as a Missle to finish the enemy, so if the run through the castle can be reduced to just one fight, it's a question of whether 2000 gold to bring a Wizard up to 70 Int can be gained (Death Gulch + Heart Compass with Luck Manipulation?) and spent faster than visiting the Time Lord (which doesn't seem likely, though it could go either way and be hundreds of frames faster or thousands slower). I also wonder if using a Thief and Luck Manipulation would be faster than using a Cleric, but it seems like the Thief would be faster unless the Luck Manipulation is too limited or takes too long (something I'm going to look into). So I guess my goal in the next few weeks is to: 1) Determine whether a Thief or Cleric amasses GP faster. 2) Determine whether a Thief is even necessary or whether something else can be used to quickly gain the levels to 4. It's almost like a puzzle, but I'm sure there is some way to quickly reach level 5 beyond Undead. Maybe there isn't. It just seems like the pieces are there and only need to put together in a specific way. 3) I know in the past, on normal speed plays, I've used save-scumming to clear the screen of enemies with Undead/Repel. So something affects that, but the current runner didn't identify it. I'd like to identify it. 4) Determine whether 2000g, 20 more Int, and one fight in Exodus castle is faster than visiting the Time Lord. 5) Determine if there is ANY way to skip all fights in Exodus' Castle, or whether the constant use of Status to regroup the characters is ultimately slower than just talking to the Time Lord 6) Walking over lava has weird effects with a full party, and the Pray Command can be acquired without the Mark, though only one character will survive, and then die, being returned to Lord British. Is it possible to skip the Mark of Fire altogether? Can this shortcut back to Lord British be used for anything? 7) Would it not be preferrable to kill all but one character, thereby making fights in Exodus' Castle easier to skip? 8) Do Horses make the enemies in Exodus' Castle slower, or is this restricted to Overworld enemies--assuming that's the effect Horses have anyway? 9) Get to working, exploiting, glitching, and playing! **** I learn best by figuring things out by messing with them, but I have checked out many of the guides on the site. If anyone has any suggestions, or interest in helping, with this run, let me know, please. If nothing else, it seems like a good way to step into the TAS world, especially since the barrier to entry has gotten extremely high; I *never* expected an Ultima: Exodus run to be completed so quickly. Newbs like me look at that and think "What's the point of even trying? I don't have 1% of that person's knowledge." Of course, I don't stop there--I then think, "Yeah, but I could *acquire* that knowledge myself." So I'm looking to do so. Any help not already found on the guides would be greatly appreciated.
Posted: 7/7/2015 5:10 PM
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aenima8669
She/Her
Joined: 7/7/2015
Posts: 7
There's also holding B to skip the intro credits. I forgot to mention that. Skipping the sequence saves ~910 frames.
Posted: 7/7/2015 11:44 PM
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CoolKirby
Editor, Experienced player (608)
Joined: 11/8/2010
Posts: 4012
Exotic platforms TASer of 2014 NES TAS of 2013
Those sound like good goals for improving the published run, and it's great you're so motivated to improve it! I would suggest checking out the other thread for this game; it looks like nanogyth has somewhat recently posted a slight improvement WIP and some other information.
Posted: 7/8/2015 12:58 AM
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aenima8669
She/Her
Joined: 7/7/2015
Posts: 7
"The RNG is at 00BA". I've spent hours looking for it. Looks like the WIP got cancelled, judging by the time stamps, but the information in that thread is tremendously useful. Thanks for the link. It never even occurred to me to look somewhere other than the publication page and Game Resources.
Posted: 7/8/2015 1:39 AM
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aenima8669
She/Her
Joined: 7/7/2015
Posts: 7
I'm confused, though. The WIP linked earlier goes through the entire game--is there a reason it didn't obsolete the other video or isn't considered finished? There's the barrier to entry thing, right there. Holy... Jesus Christ. That was flawless. I've found that turning costs 1 more frame, and there were frames lost putting in names obviously, but doing the game would result in such miniscule gains along an identical route. I'll probably still play it, but the perfection is discouraging. :/
Posted: 7/8/2015 6:49 AM
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CoolKirby
Editor, Experienced player (608)
Joined: 11/8/2010
Posts: 4012
Exotic platforms TASer of 2014 NES TAS of 2013
Don't give up, remember your potential improvements and keep trying out new ideas! That 1 frame save each time the characters turn might open up more time saves: for example, better "luck"/RNG. A small, repetitive improvement like that is what allowed me to save 9 frames off a really short, mostly optimized movie once.
Posted: 7/16/2015 3:18 PM
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nanogyth
Player (65)
Joined: 4/21/2011
Posts: 232
aenima8669 wrote:
I'm confused, though. The WIP linked earlier goes through the entire game--is there a reason it didn't obsolete the other video or isn't considered finished?
I was going to improve it, but got distracted by other things.
Posted: 7/16/2015 3:32 PM
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nanogyth
Player (65)
Joined: 4/21/2011
Posts: 232
The thing I'd most like to figure out is the ship glitch in ambrosia, and if it can be used in sosaria. I wrote a decompiler in python, but I don't know the function of enough addresses to make sense of what happens. The main game loop is a mess of goto spaghetti. P.S. And you think the TAS is impressive, you should see http://www.twitch.tv/yogidamonk doing most of these tricks in real time.
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