Post subject: Kirby's Return to Dreamland
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I avoided Epic Yarn (not to mention I haven't touched my Wii for 2 years, not playing anything right now...) since it felt like a filler in the series, from what I saw Kirby couldn't even inhale enemies and the gameplay looked far too simple and not promising at all, to me. Now prepare for this true Kirby Wii game! It's so colorful and looks beautiful, much like Amazing Mirror (GBA) with many innovative game elements packed in. Watch this if you haven't yet. I, for one, am really looking forward to this one game.
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Same here. Especially when I saw that you can inhale a bunch of enemies and shoot out a giant star. Everything about this game seems great. It's that game that was going to be released on the GameCube, but got cancelled, and years later, it's finally here! It looks like it would make a good TAS too, especially with 4 players.
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Wow, the gameplay really resembles Kirby's Adventure, but it borrows from other Kirby games too, like Kirby 64 and Amazing Mirror. It looks so great!
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The Quick Join & Quick Leave features will make for some potential TAS fun! :)
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But every Quick Join uses up a life. Would extra lives be worth detouring for?
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What about playing with 4 players for the whole game? Then they could break blocks and defeat enemies that are ahead and everyone can go through the levels faster.
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Derakon wrote:
But every Quick Join uses up a life. Would extra lives be worth detouring for?
Do you get the life back when you Quick Leave?
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CoolKirby wrote:
What about playing with 4 players for the whole game? Then they could break blocks and defeat enemies that are ahead and everyone can go through the levels faster.
The thing is that there will likely be times when it would be faster to use Quick-Leave and then Quick-Join, warping to Kirby or a combination of the two, than just progress with that character normally. I know in NSMBW there were times when me and some buddies would use "The Bubble" due to the mini power-up. It was faster for them to just bubble and let one of us go through certain parts in levels. There were still times when it was good to have all four players with differing abilities, but it's just slower always having four players :/. I'd imagine that something similar would happen in a TAS of this game with Quick-Join/Leave and/or warping to Kirby. Besides using extra Kirbys, I see Dedede being extremely useful in a run. He can use the hammer throw infinitely, which is a pretty hard hitting move. Meta Knight could have some moments, he seems like he moves upward faster (not counting any Kirby abilities). Waddle Dee has an interesting flying mechanic, but it requires charging it first. I can see a lot of different ideas on how to approach a level with so many different combinations for P2-P4. Although I'm definitely seeing the game being mostly 4 Kirbys with an occasional Dedede appearance for bosses.
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I'll retract what I said about Meta Knight. I was experimenting with Shuffle Loop and I think that would totally be abusable with a TAS. Basically just jumping out of it (although I'm not sure if I was jumping in the middle or at the end, kind of off today) and doing another shuffle loop lets MK move up really really fast. I'm not sure what causes lives to not add back during Quick-Leave. It might be having anything but a full health bar.
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Patashu wrote:
Derakon wrote:
But every Quick Join uses up a life. Would extra lives be worth detouring for?
Do you get the life back when you Quick Leave?
In my experience, yes.
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Okay so I had a little look with this masterpiece I used my PAL version (Adventure) to get ideas down > 1 Player - 100/any% > 2 Player - 100/any% - The Perfect Combo is Kirby (forced) and Meta Knight. > 4 Player - 100/any% - The Complete Team: Kirby, King DeeDee, Waddle Dee and Meta Knight > 4 Player - 100/any% - Team of Kirby The reason why I put a 2 player tas down is because when using Meta Knight, he is the fastest flyer, so by putting Kirby on his back/ grabbing his leg the can travel quickly. The bonus mark on this game is anyone can enter a door (My example in this is I was hitting the roof, Kirby falls off (attempted not to make him fall several times) and Meta Knight kept going up the ladder, then through a door :D).
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Ok, this is coming from someone who's been actively speedrunning this game (and I think basically the only person who ever runs it, period, besides yoshifan) The perfect combo isn't necessarily Kirby and MK for 2-player. MK is good for flight, yes, but flying is only at best as fast as running. And keep in mind, ability-less Kirby has slide attack, which is faster than running, so slide-attacking Kirby is faster than MK flight. Furthermore, the best ability for mobility is Wing Kirby, as it's fastest horizontally with condor head besides being shot out of a cannon and Snow Bowl (which both are only temporary), diagonal speed is amazing, and vertical speed is only beaten by air-puff-canceled hi jumps (yes, wing is faster than hi-jump alone ON CONSOLE, so it's definitely faster TAS). So for any%, co-op is actually near worthless since all Kirby wants to do is breeze through every level with wing after mixing for Wing from 3 sir kibbles in level 1-1. It's actually even detrimental in bosses since damage done done by each player is scaled down in co-op, and there isn't space for player 2 to hit the boss between dive-bomb hits by Wing Kirby. I guess for a TAS, it might be a different story, MAYBE. But unless you go double-hammer-kirby, I don't really see 2-player bosses being any faster than solo. The only time I see co-op being useful in any% is for sections with keys, where player 2 can just grab the key, then player 1 can fly to the door (since he doesn't have to carry it) and the key-holding player 2 will warp; in solo, wing kirby has to manually carry the key, which is slower since he can't fly or condor head. This is most notable in levels 1-1, 2-4 and 4-5, off the top of my head. Otherwise, though, wing is so good for speedrunning that a 2nd player will barely help in clearing levels for any%, even in a TAS. 100% is a completely different story though. Player 2 wants to switch characters as necessary. MK may seem like the obvious choice, but remember MK flying isn't helpful for horizontal movement unless there are tons of obstacles, and kirby spamming slide attacks is faster than running (and thus, is faster than MK flying). Furthermore, using MK is definitely easier in some sections, and is more console-friendly, but this is TAS, and I'm sure there'll be ways to navigate cluttered horizontal areas faster than MK flying. So MK won't be useful overall, at least for horizontal movement. Vertical movement is a different story, and it'll almost definitely be faster to have Kirby ride on MK for hi-jump segments, unless Kirby himself has Wing (aka 7-2, you can easily manipulate a mix for wing at the start of it before the hi-jump segment). There are also segments where Kirby wants to navigate diagonally; MK will definitely be helpful there too if Kirby doesn't already have Wing. Waddle Dee is obviously used for underwater enegy spheres requiring spear (aka levels 3-2 and 4-3), and King Dedede is ideal for destroying metal blocks and stakes for accessing more energy spheres; Kirby doesn't want to get stone/hammer since they're not very mobile abilities, so it allows Kirby to keep whatever ability he has at the moment for more mobility. And using a secondary Kirby will be extremely helpful for non-snow-bowl-ultra-ability-segments, and maybe dimensional rift segments too. The 2nd Kirby can grab the ultra ability, and the 1st Kirby can navigate the area with whatever ability he has, which is faster than the 1st Kirby having the ultra ability and having to navigate areas without mobile abilities like fire/wing/tornado. I can help make up a 100% TAS route, but I don't TAS (yet), so routing is all I can really help with for now. However, Any% route is pretty straightforward 1-1 Spam slide attack until you hit Sir Kibble in first screen, then spam cutter dashes until next screen with the fire enemy, spam burning until triple sir kibbles past the ultra sword knight, then mix for wing and roflstomp the game with wing.
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Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us, kirbymastah. I would have thought playing with at least 2 players would be better because of defeating enemies at the front of the screen. I didn't know that damage dealt is split between players, though. I'll go ahead and post your 100% speedrun test route here. I haven't watched it yet, but 2:52:04 sounds like a solid time. And if you want to TAS with Dolphin, I can always teach you how.
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Thanks! Although my 100% test route is pretty outdated now; you'll want to check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUPsRtgkJPI for a more up-to-date route. A while ago, this was just a random test attempt at SS 100% by Yoshifan, based on my route (with a few updates), but ended up being two minutes faster, and it's a pretty good run considering this was basically his third time running it SS, I think. Probably the biggest changes in there off the top of my head are finishing Grand Doomer without an ultra ability (I didn't know about this trick at the time I recorded world 5 of my test run, but I did know about it when I recorded my endgame section), and dropping a burning flame on the switch for energy sphere #1 in level 2-4 (so Kirby can keep Fire rather than switching to Bomb). Though since I don't really have good recording equipment, I might as well try to polish up a 100% route anyways. The big route change for TAS 100% solo is probably a few extra opportunities to reliably mix for wing (the end of 7-2 comes to mind). For co-op'ing bosses, I checked out the damage data, and Wing Kirby's Dive Bomb does 24 damage MK's shuttle loop does 36 damage RAW (so 32-33 with damage scaling with only two players; less if more players) Though Dive Bombs can be executed more quickly, I actually think against some bosses it may be faster to have MK solo it, despite damage reductions (I haven't tested the actual DPS though, so don't quote me on this). But if we assume MK's shuttle loop has more DPS than Wing Kirby's Dive Bomb, it's most applicable against aerial bosses and Whispy Woods, since shuttle loop has MK constantly ascending, whereas Dive Bomb Kirby is much better at maintaining position. In other words, good luck with hitting metal general with more than 3 MK shuttle loops without pausing to drop back to the ground. For anyone interested, I have a video for near-perfect console solo-Kirby strats for bosses in both any% and 100% http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTCYwKznQIw so TAS strats can be based off of that for Solo-Kirby at least.
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I should be a little more clear on what I mean with the Kirby Meta Knight combo. Overall these 2 characters are the best but at swimming levels you swap to Waddle Dee, King DeeDee is the strongest but the slowest out of all the characters. Basically I'm suggesting for the tas in World 1 (note this is for 100% 2 player), you use Meta Knight but when there is water levels that come up (thinking right here) from level 3 swap to Waddle Dee. Also FIRE is the best for Kirby to get (in speed-wise). Just to let you know I might pick up the 2 player tas for this game 100%.
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Ok, I guess I misinterpreted your post. But I'm not sure if you even read my entire post; MK flying is overestimated as really fast; as long as Kirby can squeeze in even one slide attack, and continuously run/jump nonstop, then it is not faster for Kirby to get on MK's back, for horizontal sections (and there are far more horizontal areas than vertical/diagonal). Heck, even if Kirby can just run/jump without stopping/puffing in one screen (very doable, cuz this is kinda TAS) it's faster to not use the partner at all because it takes time for Kirby to get on MK's back. The reason why I say co-op won't be overall that useful in a speedrun is because more than half the time of other players is spent just trying to keep up with Kirby (who better have some mobile ability) and falling behind. There are obviously niche spots where a second player can come in handy (aka hitting a switch and entering a door simultaneously, or getting an energy sphere). But for the most part, it's not only because of damage scaling; damage really doesn't matter if Wing/Fire/Water/Tornado Kirby can just plow through everything far ahead of the other players. The fact that you say Fire is faster shows that you really haven't played with Wing enough. Wing >>>>>> Fire by a longshot. Fire may give a little more distance per burning than per condor head, but... -Wing maintains height MUCH better (aka you don't have to land and readjust height), and it might be able to maintain height perfectly with frame-perfect condor heads -Slays bosses generally faster than fire -jump-canceled-dive-door-entries -Flies vertically+diagonally better (yeah, it's better to use Wing Kirby than MK since Kirby won't have to get on MK's back) -dives are ridiculously fast for downward movement and kills everything via combo dive / dive bomb; it's only bested in downward speed by stone (barely), sword, and maybe spear (where sword and spear's down attacks don't even have invincibility in the duration of falling) -has much more invincibility than fire, and so on. Add in the fact that Kirby can Combo Dive / Dive Bomb any time during Condor Heads, and jump-cancel during any of these dives, and there is so much more versatility in movement. And since this is TAS, given how technical Wing is, using Wing will save so much more time than using fire. And I'm still confident that Wing is still horizontally faster than Fire, because burning has more startup+endlag than condor head (which has practically ZERO startup and minimal endlag, but you can cancel condor head any time with a dive bomb / combo dive). You should check this out for actual damage data http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/935607-kirbys-return-to-dream-land/62398037 And also my any% current record http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecLncXnHPN4 Some things I can easily point that that you can only do with wing and not fire 0313 - The first of many jump-canceled-dive-door-entries, which saves time (and by TAS, you can do this with basically ANY DOOR), because you dive down so fast towards a door and enter it instantly. This also applies for goal doors. 0357 - Combo Dive at the end of Condor Head gives Kirby a block of height, and maintains most of his speed. You really don't have that degree of control with Fire, even in TAS. 1031 - Another jump-canceled-dive-door-entry, and also how shockwaves from dives can destroy bomb blocks very conveniently without slowing down. Fire has to come all the way to the ground and use burning to plow through the bomb block. This also applies for switches on the ground. In particular, if you have to wait for something to happen after hitting a switch/bomb, obviously you want to hit it ASAP; wing can activate switches more quickly and from farther away thanks to shockwaves. 1133 - Wing can kill this Bonkers before he does his time-consuming spin attack. Fire can't. Nuff said. There's also a Moundo in 3-3 that Wing can kill before Moundo does his even-more-time-consuming spin attack, but I didn't get it in my any% run (I got it consistently nowadays though). Fire can't do that. In other words, Wing destroys every miniboss much faster than Fire can (besides 1-2 gigant edge and 2-3 king doo, solely because inferno can finish them before they attack; this doesn't work later on since they have more health) 1720 - Try navigating this room with fire. I mess up a bit, but I'm sure that my any% performance in this room will be faster than TASing it with fire. 2103 - One of a few noticeable spots where descending with wing is ridiculously fast. 11140 and 11202 - Examples of Combo Dive being amazing, whereas fire has nothing of the sort Furthermore, distance of burning may be barely greater than Condor Head, but Condor Head + Combo Dive has farther distance with invincibility than a single burning; this is significant as it allows Wing Kirby to condor head + combo dive through obstacles with more versatility (aka huge boulders, monster-fire obstacles, etc). This is more of a console safety thing though; not sure if it 100% applies for TAS since you can probably do pixel-perfect burning/condor heads to get through obstacles anyways. The camera quality of my run is absolute crap, but you better watch my entire any% run to see how wing is so much better than fire, and it's probably even better TAS, given how technical it is. I'm almost positive that any% sub-140 is possible on console, and definitely on TAS. I really do want to see a 2-player co-op TAS. For 100% though, I better see Kirby getting wing at almost every possible opportunity, or else the run is automatically sub-optimal. Also, it seems like you really haven't messed with wing much in general. Wing is undoubtedly the best overall ability in the game, but also the most technical (which is overcome by TAS). It is the most mobile, with the most invincibility, and one of the best three abilities to speedrun bosses with (other two are hammer/ninja, but neither have close to the mobility that wing has). But for 100%, Fire is still one of the more mobile abilities. Fire Spin is great for vertical movement, and remember that you can do multiple consecutive fire spins along walls. I seriously suggest you watch both my any% run and yoshifan's 100% run for a route to base things off of. Also @CoolKirby, I may take you up on your offer about TASing in general, since if I'm ever to learn TASing, it'd definitely be this game, but not for now. I'm still speedrunning KRtDL and KSSU on console D EDIT You're also wrong about DDD being stronger than MK; MK is actually stronger than DDD, and DDD does considerably less damage than Hammer Kirby with everything; for example, DDD's hammer flip only does 45 damage whereas Hammer Kirby does 80. (68 and 99 respectively if reversed). The only advantage DDD has over Kirby/MK/Waddle Dee is that he is a tank, and has considerably more HP (and MK has the least HP, and Kirby/Waddle Dee have equal I think).
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kirbymastah wrote:
And also my any% current record: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecLncXnHPN4
Thanks for posting this! I was looking for the any% record.
kirbymastah wrote:
Also @CoolKirby, I may take you up on your offer about TASing in general, since if I'm ever to learn TASing, it'd definitely be this game, but not for now.
OK, great! Just let me know when you're ready and I'll show you how to TAS with Dolphin.
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Ok, yoshifan has been kind enough to do some frame testing on various abilities and movements in this game here and has been doing a great job http://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Kirby%27s_Return_to_Dream_Land/Ability_Info#cite_note-FTY-0 It's not complete, and it's probably not perfect, but as he said, it's a place to start for now. And it basically confirms several things, you can see the implications we found based off of the data on the SDA forum for this game http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/kirbys_return_to_dreamland_speedrunning_discussion__wii_101.html Just posting here as an FYI. Also, Wing >>>> Fire, 100% confirmed. Condor Head takes roughly 6.1 frames per block, and Burn takes 7 frames per block. Here's a post I made in response to the data, on the SDA forum if you're too lazy to check it out. Keep in mind these notes are for console runs... " 1. Perfect Burnings are barely faster than running on ice, and Imperfect Burnings on average will be about as fast as running on ice. I guess running on Ice is preferable for shorter distances. 2. Imperfect Invincible Slide Attacks are about as fast as perfect Condor Heads, so slide attacks with invincible candy should be used over condor head, but condor head should be used when Kirby needs to jump since condor head is faster than running speed with invincible candy 3. On the other hand, running/jumping with invincible candy seems to be exactly the same speed as perfect burnings, so it's preferable to avoid using burning if Kirby has fire while invincible, because we're kinda not gonna do frame-perfect burnings all the time lol 4. I always questioned if cutter dashes were faster than slide attacks; I guess this basically confirms it 5. I also always suspected that climbing down ladders was slower than just falling, but it was too close to really tell; I always assumed so since Kirby has to go through a "get on/off ladder" animation. Again, this is great that it's been confirmed! "
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Hmmm CoolKirby, I may take you up on your offer to learn how to TAS this game. I'll have to find the ISO myself, but any tips on how to get started? I think it'd just be fun to start off with doing some of the challenge rooms.
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kirbymastah wrote:
Hmmm CoolKirby, I may take you up on your offer to learn how to TAS this game. I'll have to find the ISO myself, but any tips on how to get started? I think it'd just be fun to start off with doing some of the challenge rooms.
Tips on TASing, you mean? And it's great you're starting work on this game. Since the game requires you to use the Wii Remote, you'll need the special wiimote-fix build of Dolphin: 32-bit, 64-bit. Then you'll need to make sure dual core mode and idle skipping are unchecked, and the DSP is set to LLE and not HLE. Other than that, you should be all set to start TASing.
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CoolKirby wrote:
kirbymastah wrote:
Hmmm CoolKirby, I may take you up on your offer to learn how to TAS this game. I'll have to find the ISO myself, but any tips on how to get started? I think it'd just be fun to start off with doing some of the challenge rooms.
Tips on TASing, you mean? And it's great you're starting work on this game. Since the game requires you to use the Wii Remote, you'll need the special wiimote-fix build of Dolphin: 32-bit, 64-bit. Then you'll need to make sure dual core mode and idle skipping are unchecked, and the DSP is set to LLE and not HLE. Other than that, you should be all set to start TASing.
Also disable eurgb60, and check for desyncs often. This build is known to desync, at varying frequencies depending on the game, and have not been tested extensively.
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Which lle setting should I use? Recompiler or Interpreter (slow)? Should I set "DSP llE on Thread" on? I got the ISO file but it says "SetupWiiMem Cant find setting file"
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kirbymastah wrote:
Which lle setting should I use? Recompiler or Interpreter (slow)? Should I set "DSP llE on Thread" on?
Leave LLE as it is. Do you have the two files required for LLE (dsp_coef.bin and dsp_rom.bin)? You'll need to dump them from a Wii or GameCube (or download them).
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[quote="CoolKirby"][quote="kirbymastah"]Which lle setting should I use? Recompiler or Interpreter (slow)? Should I set "DSP llE on Thread" on?[/quote] Leave LLE as it is. Do you have the two files required for LLE (dsp_coef.bin and dsp_rom.bin)? You'll need to dump them from a Wii or GameCube (or download them).[/quote] Hm how would I dump them from my wii? Is there a homebrew app? I got my ISOs from the discs themselves... or if they're online, where can i find them? I do have a DSPTool but it's an application...