If some games load faster than others (eg. because of seeking times or because of how often the game loads data from the CD), using an overall average will hurt some games and benefit others. This might be seen as a problem.
Wouldn't [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_GameCube#Technical_specifications]this[/URL] be sufficient information to get the average loading times on an optimal system?
"Panasonic-developed CAV miniDVD-like 8 cm optical disc, 2.000 MB/s–3.125 MB/s transfer rate, 128 ms average access time, 1.5 GB capacity"
What's the problem? Wouldn't it be relatively easy to add 128ms for every access command and 1ms for every 2-3.2kb of transferred data? (and then maybe apply some slight tweaks if that doesn't yet produce the desired results)
So who would want this "feature" other than tasers? Nobody. We are in a minority position here and to say the least we don't agree on wanting this "feature" either.
What kind of sane developer would invest their time into such a "feature"?
Yeah, please continue with generalizations, they make you look smarter.
For some reason developers have invested their time into making cycle-accurate emulators of NES, SNES, arcade hardware, many other systems. It was done to have as accurate emulation of those systems as possible, not pleasing TASers or any other arbitrary group of users.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Backward compatible newer consoles can already have different disk timings that influence gameplay. For example, there's some kind of hidden mini game during loading times in PS2 Okami where one can get dragon teeth (one of the most precious items) by pressing some keys at the correct timing for a certain time. With the faster loading times on a backward-compatible PS3, this is nearly impossible to actually complete, and the player is disadvantaged.
I'm not actually sure what my point was other than loading times can actually change the gameplay in some cases.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
I'd choose to emulate the fastest drive officially released. PS2 load times of psx games perhaps? Loading faster than what is possible on real hardware seems wrong. Unless you can "overclock" the optical disc reader, but would that only reduce load times or would it change the games? I mean, we allow L+R...
Actually, some consoles allows games to be installed, so no need to seek from the game disk.
And then there are special solutions like that kiosk load system for the Wii.
I'd choose to emulate the fastest drive officially released. PS2 load times of psx games perhaps? Loading faster than what is possible on real hardware seems wrong. Unless you can "overclock" the optical disc reader, but would that only reduce load times or would it change the games? I mean, we allow L+R...
I believe (I've heard before) some games FMVs depend on slow loading of PSX, so they get messed up on PS2. (FF8, for example).
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Metroid Prime is a rather odd case. The Wii can read data off the disc much faster than the Gamecube can, but there's no time advantage to running Prime on the Wii instead of the Gamecube. I'm really curious why this is, and whether this would shed light on the loading time issue at hand.
"Here at TASVideos, we strive to push games to their limits. The emulators we use allow for undoing mistakes, slow-motion gameplay, and even in some cases utilizing robots to do our bidding.
Using these tools, we overcome human limitations to complete games with extremely high precision, entertaining our viewers as our players tear through games at seemingly impossible speeds. The end result of this process is simply a series of key-presses which can be performed on the original hardware."
From the TASVideos about page. The entire point of this website was to show how games can be played if human reflexes and mistakes were not a factor, not how games can be played if things that are part of the game are removed (through inaccurate emulation).
But load times will be different between different GCs, Wiis, etc. There is no one "load time" it always differs. So it will never be like on a real console, since in this instant there is no one real console, there are a million different ones.
There are differences in the resistance of the laser, slight drive speed differences, how scratched or dirty the discs are, etc.
For PS1 games there is even the option to load them faster in the PS2. So what is the standard speed here?
Regarding the portion you highlighted: the end result will still be "simply a series of key-presses which can be performed on the original hardware." just with less load time.
Toothache wrote:
I think the idea is simple. We want to move away from the idea that TASing is cheating, and since it is now possible to playback input files on a real console, we should strive for emulator accuracy as much as possible, else it can be seen as cheating by having the emulator run much faster than the actual console could allow. This is why all the runs on faster snes9x versions, for example, should be obsoleted by runs on more accurate emulators in the future, even if they are slower in terms of real time.
Like I said above, there is no "acurate" in CD/DVD loading. You will never get a TAS to sync on a real system, unless you somehow created it on that particlar console.
And in the case of Snes9x we are talking about acurately emulating play-time. Here we are talking about "kinda matching up" wait time. I think we are comparing apples and oranges here. One should be as close to a real console as possible, since a lot of the enjoyment comes from that fact, the other is just boring nothingness.
PS: Thank you all for having a civil conversation, even though I started this thread totally sleep deprived, which caused me to not use the best tone...
But load times will be different between different GCs, Wiis, etc. There is no one "load time" it always differs. So it will never be like on a real console, since in this instant there is no one real console, there are a million different ones.
This difference will be tiny. Completely unobservable to the player, unless there's some kind of damage on either the disc or the system itself. For the most part, loading times have a negligible effect on gameplay, but for games like Metroid Prime where load times consist of waiting around for rooms to load so the doors will open, this will be observable.
For PS1 games there is even the option to load them faster in the PS2. So what is the standard speed here?
I feel you're just being lazy here. If you're emulating PS1, PS1's load speed is standard. If you're emulating PS2, and are feeding a PS1 disc to it, PS2's load speed is standard. Why would you consider otherwise? An emulator should be able to accomplish all of that accurately.
Please understand, emulation isn't about setting some kind of standard or a convention to follow, it's about making a piece of software behave like a model piece of hardware would, or as close to it as possible. Purposefully making an emulator perform differently from the system it emulates also makes it stop being an emulator.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I feel you're just being lazy here. If you're emulating PS1, PS1's load speed is standard. If you're emulating PS2, and are feeding a PS1 disc to it, PS2's load speed is standard. Why would you consider otherwise? An emulator should be able to accomplish all of that accurately.
You completely missed my point, which was: What in this case is considered "original hardware". Is it the PS1 or the PS2? The PS2 was sold A LOT more than the PS1 and almost everybody did play classic PS1 games on it. So isn't that the hardware and load times most people know and expect?
The Wii doesn't have the same problem, since it slows down the drive in GC mode. (maybe this little fact also answers petries metroid question) Otherwise there would be the same problem.
Please understand, emulation isn't about setting some kind of standard or a convention to follow, it's about making a piece of software behave like a model piece of hardware would, or as close to it as possible. Purposefully making an emulator perform differently from the system it emulates also makes it stop being an emulator.
Only there is no "model piece of hardware" here. There is a wide range, as we have discussed already. My GCs laser has a resistance of 337 Ohm. There ware some that had a resistance of over 500 Ohm.
The last GC models that were made had one of under a 100 Ohm. I know of one that had 66.
Will they read discs at the same speed? Hell no. The ones with the higher resistance will have to reread a lot more. The ones with the lower resistance will burn out a lot quicker, but they will also load a lot faster.
PS1 games (and I believe some PS2 ones) can also be downloaded via the Playstation Network and ran from the PS3 (and even the PSP!). The PS3 hard disk is user upgradeable and one can put a SDD in its place for ultimate speed.
Anyone knows how Sony handles load times in these cases?
This is probably the closest match to disk image emulation on a real console.
Maybe the Wii-U will do something similar for Wii/GC disk, who knows? (maybe it is known, but I'm lazy and didn't bother to check)
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
Why are you guys even discussing this stupid idea?
Everything was said in the first replies... loading times don't belong to gameplay and consoles don't use always a single brand or model of optical drive and EVEN if they did, it would be pretty impossible to emulate perfectly all action (and faults) performed by the hardware.
To run a movie of a disc-based game on real hardware would require some artifact to adjust the loading times correctly... not to perfectly copy the loading times because that is impossible to be accurately predicted.
Now please, STFU already.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
There's tricks in Metroid Prime 2 that involve having a room load around you; these aren't possible on Dolphin currently due to the instant loading, but are possible on console.
Just throwing that out there. >_>
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
ShadowWraith wrote:
how dare you people discuss things related to TASes on a TASing forum. you should be ashamed
three cheers for pirate_sephiroth
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
Everything was said in the first replies... loading times don't belong to gameplay and consoles don't use always a single brand or model of optical drive and EVEN if they did, it would be pretty impossible to emulate perfectly all action (and faults) performed by the hardware.
If we can't do something 100% perfectly, don't do it at all?
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Everything was said in the first replies... loading times don't belong to gameplay and consoles don't use always a single brand or model of optical drive and EVEN if they did, it would be pretty impossible to emulate perfectly all action (and faults) performed by the hardware.
If we can't do something 100% perfectly, don't do it at all?
"It is futile to do with more things that which can be done with fewer".
In Metroid Prime (which seems to be the only project mentioned in this thread that is being effected right now) runs over at SDA, what is the consensus about first gen. gamecubes versus last gen.? Seems like the last one released that has the lowest laser resistance is at the biggest advantage. If it is indeed fair game to use any gamecube in those runs, then why is there problem with having no load times at all?
I mean, all I'm saying is that if their stance is "Well too bad" for those with launch gamecubes, then why not adopt the same "Well too bad" attitude with having no load times?
Also... I'm not a hardware modification (or laser for that matter) expert, but isn't it theoretically possible for someone to modify or swap their gamecube's laser to have a resistance of 2 or 1 ohm? I know there's a "no hardware modifications" policy at SDA, but what's stopping someone from changing that 66 ohm down to a 55 ohm? That person could blame their "fast" load times on someone else's just being "slow".
There should be an "all or one" rule. If any gamecube is allowed in these runs, then I think the instant-loading Dolphin should be in the clear. But if there were a standardized model to prevent a laser swap and/or balance the playing field, then that's what the emulator should be based on.
I'm tired, I hope I got my point across xD.
You completely missed my point, which was: What in this case is considered "original hardware". Is it the PS1 or the PS2?
Again, there is no original hardware for an emulator. There is emulated hardware. What you choose to emulate is as good as original for you.
Slowking wrote:
The Wii doesn't have the same problem, since it slows down the drive in GC mode.
And thus the emulator should do the same.
Slowking wrote:
Only there is no "model piece of hardware" here. There is a wide range, as we have discussed already. My GCs laser has a resistance of 337 Ohm. There ware some that had a resistance of over 500 Ohm.
The last GC models that were made had one of under a 100 Ohm. I know of one that had 66.
If a laser's resistance (wait, a laser's resistance? What exactly is resistance being measured on here?) deteriorates with time, as your data seems to suggest, then a model piece of hardware is obviously the one with no significant deterioration. Which means, as I already suggested, that durations should be measured on newest, least used models available, and averaged out. That way it will be closest to the model hardware's behavior. If there were different revisions of the Gamecube that had different hardware upon release, then the emulation should be adjustable to match all of the revisions, like it's done in, say, Amiga emulators.
It doesn't matter what people expect. At all. What matters is getting it close to how the hardware is supposed to work when you unpack it in the store.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
DarkKobold wrote:
pirate_sephiroth wrote:
Everything was said in the first replies... loading times don't belong to gameplay and consoles don't use always a single brand or model of optical drive and EVEN if they did, it would be pretty impossible to emulate perfectly all action (and faults) performed by the hardware.
If we can't do something 100% perfectly, don't do it at all?
"Emulation is the process of mimicking the outwardly observable behavior to match an existing target. The internal state of the emulation mechanism does not have to accurately reflect the internal state of the target which it is emulating."
Emulator authors aren't responsible for hardware issues. I believe they try to accurately reproduce the logical state of the machines. If there's an error to be imitated, it's a logical error.
Do you see what the TASes here say? "Abuses PROGRAMMING errors". You don't see 'Abuses HARDWARE errors"
"VanillaCoke wrote:
Also... I'm not a hardware modification (or laser for that matter) expert, but isn't it theoretically possible for someone to modify or swap their gamecube's laser to have a resistance of 2 or 1 ohm? I know there's a "no hardware modifications" policy at SDA, but what's stopping someone from changing that 66 ohm down to a 55 ohm? That person could blame their "fast" load times on someone else's just being "slow".
There should be an "all or one" rule. If any gamecube is allowed in these runs, then I think the instant-loading Dolphin should be in the clear. But if there were a standardized model to prevent a laser swap and/or balance the playing field, then that's what the emulator should be based on.
This hardware thing is just the same as Left+Right input. Some may quickly jump and yell 'THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE WITH AN ORIGINAL CONTROLLER". Well it becomes possible after months of use, after the dpad center digs a depression in the board. You'll get all 4 directions pressed at the same time but that's enough in most cases.
Are those defective controllers allowed in SDA? I don't think so.
"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself.
It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success."
- Onkar Ghate
Bisqwit wrote:
