• Emulator used: Gens 11b, and the customized Gens 11b + Camhack + SolidityViewer + HitboxDisplay together with LUA HUD for Genesis Sonic games
  • Aims for fastest ingame time
  • Takes damage to save time
  • Abuses programming errors
  • Does not use zips
  • Manipulates luck
This is a run of Sonic the Hedgehog where no zipping mechanism is abused. It's by no means a glitchless run, mainly because defining what is a glitch and what is not a glitch isn't really trivial. By choosing to not use zipping it means (as defined by me) that what's not allowed to do is gaining a big speed boost (16-32 pixels per frame) from being inside terrains. Something which might seem similar to zipping and is allowed is terrain-ejection and sprite-ejection where the character doesn't gain any speed but instead gets directly shifted to a certain position.
By setting up a goal like this it pretty much forces you to actually play the game like the programmers intended, and you'll never see the screen scroll through the levels without Sonic on it (except when he's above the screen), which more and more have been the case with the Sonic games for Genesis. In this game zips have been found in 13 out of 19 levels (that sometimes basically skip entire levels) meaning that a run without zips looks very different as a whole, which was also a big reason why I made this run.

More details about why this goal was chosen

Normally improvements to Sonic games have been the result of slighty better precision added to the run but mainly by finding more places to zip through thus taking away more and more normal gameplay from the run. When reading through submission threads for many of these improvements it's clear that there's interest for a so called "glitchless" run without anyone really specifying what they mean by that. It might seem like a simple thing to do but if you spend some time with the game learning the physics and everything that comes with it, it'll be clear that it's not so simple - especially when you also need to consider everyone's own opinion of what a glitch is, what a zip is and what an ejection is. As I don't consider ejection a glitch (it's the result of normal collision detection) and pretty much all other things that could be interpreted as glitches besides zipping isn't really noticable by the eye and unintendedly happen frequently when playing the game unassisted. I thus went for only disallowing zipping.
Most criticism has been pointed towards the ejections that skips parts of the levels in the acts SBZ2 and SBZ3. Believe me, I'd be very glad myself if those maneuvers weren't possible as I always wanted to take the intended route. But if I'd disallowed those then the question would be why I didn't disallow other slighty less obvious ejections as well. And then if I'd ban those too, I'd be wondering whether I'd give up even less obvious ejections, and so on until I'd gotten to the kind of ejection that occurs when normally landing on ground which is impossible to not abuse. So rather than setting an arbitrary standard for how "big" the ejection can be in order to stay in the run I simply allowed them all. Of course, I probably just could've skipped using the ejections in SBZ2 and SBZ3 and Final Zone and not mentioning the ejections in the submission text at all, and almost nobody would've noticed the other ejections in the run even if they're there, if I'd just wanted to have this run published as easy as possible, lying is an easy way to get love from people. But then I'd end up with a run that doesn't follow my goals which not how I make my TASes.

Time table

ActMy timePrevious best non-zipped time
Green Hill 10:24:230:24:30
Green Hill 20:17:090:17:43
Green Hill 30:30:450:30:48
Marble Zone 10:42:370:44:26
Marble Zone 20:49:540:52:48
Marble Zone 31:11:331:12:56
Spring Yard 10:21:310:22:12
Spring Yard 20:26:120:28:00
Spring Yard 30:55:400:56:59
Labyrinth 10:39:310:40:45
Labyrinth 20:50:290:51:19
Labyrinth 31:03:421:07:31
Star Light 10:21:230:21:43
Star Light 20:15:130:15:58
Star Light 30:35:260:42:49
Scrap Brain 10:37:51N/A
Scrap Brain 20:33:580:41:18
Scrap Brain 30:15:380:18:26
Final Zone1:12:011:13:20

Level-by-level comments

Green Hill 1

Took use of lots of down-slopes to speed up the jumps, attacked enemies to minimize air drag(1) and jumped an extra time in the loop.

Green Hill 2

Executed the ejection process better and again minimizing air drag.

Green Hill 3

Faster boss fight

Marble Zone 1

I got under the first frame rule based obstacle one frame rule earlier, but then I had to wait to get it right with the platform that goes in and out of the wall.

Marble Zone 2

Just better execution for every situation

Marble Zone 3

Only optimizations

Spring Yard 1

Took the speed shoes in a faster way and using a different route in the middle part of the act.

Spring Yard 2

I gained 3 frames before the second spike ball in the tunnel which just allowed me to pass under it for a big improvement.

Spring Yard 3

Optimizations and a new boss strategy

Labyrinth 1

Optimizations and strategy changes

Labyrinth 2

Took the invincibility to not have to stop and wait for obstacles under the water.

Labyrinth 3

Just lots of optimizations and strategy changes

Star Light 1

Gained more speed pretty much everywhere.

Star Light 2

Gained much more speed and tackled the end better.

Star Light 3

Major shortcut and route change together with a new boss strategy

Scrap Brain 1

Took the only route that doesn't force you to wait for the blocks that go in and out of the wall.

Scrap Brain 2

Used the, by now, famous trick to skip down a level plus a much more optimized last room.

Scrap Brain 3

Optimizations and the other famous trick.

Final Zone

Pausing in the beginning will increase the counter for when the boss fight will start, while not costing any ingame time.
(1) Air drag occurs when your jumping velocity is between -1024 and 0, and takes away 1/32th of your speed per frame.

Thanks to

marzojr for all the help during the making of this run. And thanks to all the previous TASers and contributors to this game, I won't mention any names since I'll probably miss out quite a few, but you know who you are.
Enjoy!

feos: HD Encode.
adelikat: Judging.
adelikat: Accepting for publication as a new category for this game. See this post for my comments.
OmnipotentEntity: Encoding underway.


Joined: 6/4/2009
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I am a true Sonic fan, and as such, I really enjoyed this movie. Nice and different, it actually shows most of the levels in a fashion playable even by hand for the most part (some tricks are still very hard to perform in real time though). The beginning of SYZ3 is epic. However I have to vote no for the arbitrarity of the execution in SYZ3 you glitch through a loop, in SBZ2 you glitch through the moving thing, not to mention the SBZ3 altogether. I think you should redo those 3 things, since it seems there has been lot of criticism. But I love this low-glitch category. I can\'t believe the day I vote no on a Sonic game would arrive.
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To answer:
Psychemaster wrote:
Aglar wrote:
"By setting up a goal like this it pretty much forces you to actually play the game like the programmers intended" By this I meant "normal game-play almost everywhere"
Well the comment still stands that you broke the goals you set for yourself on this run. If I could vote, it'd be a no. =(
and:
Noob Irdoh wrote:
I am a true Sonic fan, and as such, I really enjoyed this movie. Nice and different, it actually shows most of the levels in a fashion playable even by hand for the most part (some tricks are still very hard to perform in real time though). The beginning of SYZ3 is epic. However I have to vote no for the arbitrarity of the execution: in SYZ3 you glitch through a loop, in SBZ2 you glitch through the moving thing, not to mention the SBZ3 altogether. I think you should redo those 3 things, since it seems there has been lot of criticism. But I love this low-glitch category. I can\'t believe the day I vote no on a Sonic game would arrive.
In the goals you'll find: Abuses programming errors Feel free to criticize the goals themselves, but please no more talking about me not following them. Either read through the all posts in the thread, come back tomorrow when I'll clear up things in the submission text.
feos wrote:
Only Aglar can improve this now.
Joined: 6/22/2010
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In this thread: People debating about the finer aspects of the programming of a 20 year old game caused by yet another run of a game with a highly arbitrary goal. Where's my no rings run? How about a pacifist run. And what of the no spindash run, even though that isn't even implemented in this game yet???
This is only a little obsessive.
Joined: 5/9/2005
Posts: 752
moozooh wrote:
I wholeheartedly support the goal choice; will watch the run tomorrow, but I'm sure there's nothing in it that'll prevent me from liking it. Please consider do the same for other Sonic titles (any of them will do).
I could just empty quote this, but I won't, because I want to emphasize how much I wanted to see a run like this. Hoping this inspires other such runs in the same frame of mind as this. TASvideos needs it.
mklip2001
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Nice work, Aglar. It's got to be tough to optimize a Sonic run with no spindashing, and this looks pretty solid. The Star Light Zone stages are the best, and I especially like the damage boost in Star Light 3. I believe that you stood by your goals, and they're good goals in spirit. However, I do think that whether or not the ejections in Scrap Brain 2 and 3 are legitimate, they do break the feel of a "low-glitch" run. Up until that point in the run, I watch this feeling like "I could do this, if only I had such awesome control". Then Scrap Brain 2 and 3 happen, and it doesn't look like a great player anymore... it instead looks like a trick. I understand your views on the matter though, and I don't know what the ideal answer ought to be. I think you picked a pretty good choice, though. (I'd say that the glitchy play in Final Zone was overdone, but that's minor nitpicking.) I'd be in favor of publishing this as a "low-glitch" run (similar to the category for Pulseman), so I vote Yes.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Joined: 7/31/2005
Posts: 128
Location: Virginia
I enjoyed watching this. Yes vote.
Working on a mod of an old favorite in my spare time. PM for updates!
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Submission text updated.
feos wrote:
Only Aglar can improve this now.
Joined: 12/1/2007
Posts: 43
Location: Bogotá, Colombia
Really cool light glitching. The two last levels have some head scratchers, but the run itself I think is worthy enough to be published. EDIT: Yes vote of course.
When human lurking is not enough
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Hmm, the last two levels were head scratchers alright. They looked... out of place, even though goals were not violated. I am unsure what to vote, because the run was definitely cool, and it set up a very good branch as well, but these glitches are significant enough to break two stages, and they still leave the category open for more abuse in the future if more applications are found, thereby defeating the purpose somewhat. Maybe we should discuss this is greater detail. So far I see two more or less feasible solutions: 1) respect this goal choice and base the branch around it; 2) reformulate the goal choice so that glitching similar to SBZ2/3 is forbidden, but the rest of the gameplay stays. For #2, I propose a goal formulated as "respecting solidity": if a terrain or an object are solid, don't go through. As far as I remember, although spikes deal damage, they aren't solid—is that correct?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 5/12/2009
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I like the run and there were some really cool tricks. I voted yes, but i feel the same as moozooh. Although the goals were not violated, the last two levels looked a little out of place. Maybe a goal like "Complete the game without going through walls (walls/ground/ceiling???)" would be better...
Expert player (3641)
Joined: 11/9/2007
Posts: 375
Location: Varberg, Sweden
How to define not going through terrain? For example at around frame 9480 I partially enter the terrain not beacause it's glitch or anything but because the game works that way, I just enter on the first possible frame. Then after a while, when I'm no longer on the platform, I get ejected downwards since that's how the normal procedure goes if more than half of character is outside the terrain before the ejection occurs. For a viewer without the knowledge though the first impression would probably be that I abuse a glitch (if they care to look at in frame advance), and indeed what visually happens is that I enter the wall from the right and come out below it. There's no way I'll make a run which doesn't allow this because it'd look extremelly sloppy, be much more boring and it'd most definitely get complains like "Why did wait there for so long?" or "Why did you overshoot all jumps when jumping to a higher platform?". EDIT: "Taking a route intended by the programmers" would be a slightly better option IMO and would only require me to redo SBZ2 and SBZ3, even though I think that goal is way more arbitrary than the current one.
feos wrote:
Only Aglar can improve this now.
Personman
Other
Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
Aglar wrote:
Of course, I probably just could've skipped using the ejections in SBZ2 and SBZ3 and Final Zone and not mentioning the ejections in the submission text at all, and almost nobody would've noticed the other ejections in the run even if they're there, if I'd just wanted to have this run published as easy as possible, lying is an easy way to get love from people. But then I'd end up with a run that doesn't follow my goals which not how I make my TASes.
Aglar, you're already one of my favorite TASers of all time for your tireless, relatively thankless work on Baby Moses & friends, but these few sentences have put you still higher in my esteem. Know that there are people watching who appreciate clarity and precision in goal definitions as much as you do.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
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hegyak wrote:
But, your Sprite Ejection on Scrap Brain 3 is NOT what SEGA/Sonic Team intended for the game.
How did you know? I don't think they put statements in the manual about how this game SHOULD be played. And I don't think you have Extra-Sensory Perception abilities to read their minds. At best you can tell from the code and data of the game, and if Aglar and Derakon were right, then with Sprite/Terrain Ejections is how the physical system in this game can be actually working. And could they bother to make a skippable level? Have you seen optional levels, skippable items, secret characters in so many video games? Are they all done gracefully and non-glitch-looking? (Think about bad designs.) While all these don't prove that the programmers intended to allow Sprite/Terrain Ejections, they don't disprove that either. The author's "intended gameplay" goal would be very arbitrary (as it is unlikely for Aglar to have any ESP either), but your reasoning didn't seem to be standing up.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do
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klmz wrote:
While all these don't prove that the programmers intended to allow Sprite/Terrain Ejections, they don't disprove that either. The author's "intended gameplay" goal would be very arbitrary (as it is unlikely for Aglar to have any ESP either), but your reasoning didn't seem to be standing up.
My point is, why make the entire map of Scrap Brain 3 if Sonic Team intended the player to skip the level by sprite ejection? Why go through the time and effort to plan, create and test the level?
When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war. The Prince doth arrive he doth please.
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Can we please not degrade the discussion into sophistry? Arguing what was or wasn't intended is pointless. We should be arguing what is or isn't a suitable goal or a suitable way to conform to that goal.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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I agree with mklip2001; Star Light Zone was easily the best, especially Act 2. In fact, I'm going to back and watch again.
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Encoding time!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The input file says (W) (REV01). I get a desync from using that rom. Also Final Zone 1:12 would probably be enough to make me say yes. That's a massive breakthrough for a level which has long been thought to max out at 1:13.
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Aglar wrote:
"Taking a route intended by the programmers" would be a slightly better option IMO and would only require me to redo SBZ2 and SBZ3, even though I think that goal is way more arbitrary than the current one.
I first thought about this goal too, but in some levels Sonic has so high speed that you skip some parts of them by jumping, so some people would say that "Taking a route intended by the programmers" is an arbitrary goal since you skip some parts of the level by jumping above it or something like that. Maybe i'm wrong.
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feos wrote:
Encoding time!
Thanks
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Will upload tomorrow.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Joined: 8/8/2005
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Location: NSW, Australia
I made a point of watching this TAS before reading any of the comments about it, because I had a feeling controversy would arise from the last two stages. Overall, it was exceptionally well played, with a bunch of new things I hadn't seen before (not just SL3, but things like clearing the whole gap in Labyrinth 1 at once when the platform was right in the middle, using the lower path in Spring Yard 1...). From a technical standpoint I can only vote Yes. While SB2 and SB3 kind of detracted from the "flow" of the run, inasmuch as you're stopping to line things up, it very clearly does not break the stated goal of not zipping. I guess if it came down to it I'd prefer a slight change in the goal to remove things like that from the run, but I understand the pitfalls in that, given I've been performing a similar thought experiment for Sonic 3 lately... As it stands, a resounding Yes vote.
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Cruizer wrote:
The input file says (W) (REV01). I get a desync from using that rom.
Played fine on the version I had - (J) [h2] Not sure if that's any use, though.
Joined: 12/1/2007
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I used the stated rom and had no issues. As far as goals are concerned, the author kept his word on what the run does, and it does well. I see no reason to question what the author has not said his run is supposed to do.
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marzojr
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I can't believe it took me this long to notice that the run had been submitted. It is an easy yes vote for me: it is a great show of TASing skill by Aglar, resulting in a great run. In the discussion regarding the restriction -- the run sticks to its restriction as it is defined, and Aglar made sure of that. When he was in doubt, he asked for a second opinion (mine); I watched those sections closely (technically, I watched the whole run in frame advance...) and tried a few things to verify whether or not a zip was taking place. The end result: a cool glitch he found on Star Light 2 was scrapped because it was a zip... but others remained because they are not zips. In my opinion, the definition he chose for what constitutes a zip is sound; and far less controversial than the one I used on the S3&K 100% run. But the most important bit: the run is not labeled as a 'glitchless' or 'low glitch' run -- it is, instead, a 'no zips' run. Moreover, I find it funny that people complain a lot about Scrap Brain 2 and 3, but don't bat an eye at Green Hill 2, for example, where the same thing happens at a smaller scale.
Marzo Junior