If Nintendo gave us the code for their VC emulator and outfitted with all the TAS functionality possible and said "here, this should help you guys make some TASes", should be allow it? Why or why not?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I guess I can make that too if you want. I thought this is what you were saying. It's a good thread none the less, I can't see why you complain or fill it with extraneous information.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Well of course you can.
Though, their VC emulator is written for the PPC architecture, specifically being intended to run on a wii. That means you'd have to tas it on a either a wii, or a wii emulator. Or at least some other PPC emulator. Certainly it would never run on a standard desktop pc.
Also, if the emulator did not accurately emulate the n64, you still could not abuse any emulation glitches.
What if Donald Trump gave me $10 million dollars tomorrow?
What if an asteroid strikes the Earth?
Both of these happening is more likely than Nintendo releasing their source code.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Also, if the emulator did not accurately emulate the n64, you still could not abuse any emulation glitches.
Why would that matter, it's not a N64 emulator, it's a VC emulator
And being outfitted for all our TASing needs implies it could run on a standard computer.
If you think it's too unlikely doesn't matter, it's still a relevant question to what should be accepted on this site. Must you require me to say "an enthusiast group makes it and opens the source" or do you just want to avoid intelligent debate altogether?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Also, if the emulator did not accurately emulate the n64, you still could not abuse any emulation glitches.
Why would that matter, it's not a N64 emulator, it's a VC emulator
Ok, hold up. Stop. VC is not a console. VC stands for virtual console, which is the name of nintendo's n64 emulator. If you meant something else by VC, you need to clarify. If not, then yes it is an n64 emulator.
A VC emulator would be an emulator that runs nintendo's emulator inside another emulator. For example, dolphin is a "VC" emulator.
Also, if the emulator did not accurately emulate the n64, you still could not abuse any emulation glitches.
Why would that matter, it's not a N64 emulator, it's a VC emulator
Ok, hold up. Stop. VC is not a console. VC stands for virtual console, which is the name of nintendo's n64 emulator. If you meant something else by VC, you need to clarify. If not, then yes it is an n64 emulator.
A VC emulator would be an emulator that runs nintendo's emulator inside another emulator. For example, dolphin is a "VC" emulator.
Why would a VC emulator have to run VC inside of another emulator, that sounds more like a Wii emulator. For example a N64 emulator doesn't nest emulators, an emulator of an emulator can be one emulator.
How important is it that we add a layer of emulation to upload to "can be played on original hardware" and is it worth the cost?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Uh...A "VC emulator" is by definition an emulator running in an emulator. VC IS an emulator. VC is NOT a console. You cannot run VC directly because not only does it not have the tools required to tas a game, it can't even be run a pc. It is written for PPC, not x86 or x86-64.
I see no controversy here. Minor differences aside (e.g., StarTropics having the yo-yo in the original game and the Island Star in the VC release), a single emulator should always be preferred to a nested emulator. If the game does not work in its native emulator, then a nested emulator should be acceptable. The only gray area might be if the game emulates with significant gameplay-affecting glitches (but is still playable) in the native emulator but emulates perfectly on the Virtual Console. That's why we have judges, though.
For those not following the oot thread, the reason for this thread, has to do with version differences between the n64 and wii version of zelda oot.
On the n64, using deku stick as an adult will crash the game. This does not happen on the gamecube, or wii version. With a new glitch, to warp to the credits, the new route requires using the deku stick as an adult. This is impossible on the n64, but works fine on the wii.
Although using deku stick as an adult does not work on the n64, it does work in mupen (for exactly the same reason it works on the gamecube and wii). Obviously this is an emulation glitch, and should not be allowed, as per common sense, and the rules. Instead, what spider wants to do is use the rom from the wii version (which is identical to the n64 one anyway), and pretend it's the same game, even though it'd be tased in mupen.
What this boils down to, is that the only way to do this run without absusing emulation glitches is to do the run in dolphin, running an n64 emulator inside a wii emulator. Obviously the game works on a native n64 emulator, but the glitch require for the current route does not, so this seems like a valid reason to use an emulator in an emulator, at least to me, especially since the emulator in question is part of a commercially released game. The problem with doing it in dolphin, is that dolphin is really slow, and currently does not allow reset recording. I would argue that the first problem is just too bad, because that's not a valid reason to cheat the game. The second is a little more tricky, but only one reset is used, which could potentially be replaced with a death, though this would obviously be slower. Additionally, dolphin has a pretty active dev team, so it is possible reset recording could be added, which would leave the only reason to do the run in mupen because "it's too hard to do in dolphin".
The argument is basically that mupen behaves similar (but not the same) as a different version of the game, so they want to use it instead of dolphin, even though the only reason it works is because of an inaccurate emulation. They think this is justified for the sole reason of mupen being more convenient to tas in than dolphin.
What this boils down to, is that the only way to do this run without absusing emulation glitches is to do the run in dolphin,
Actually, it is still abusing an emulation glitch. Just because Nintendo wrote the VC, doesn't magically make everything about their emulation perfect.
And, yes it runs on a console. However, I can install SNES9x on an Xbox. That doesn't magically make every SNES9x glitch legitimate.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
What this boils down to, is that the only way to do this run without absusing emulation glitches is to do the run in dolphin,
Actually, it is still abusing an emulation glitch. Just because Nintendo wrote the VC, doesn't magically make everything about their emulation perfect.
And, yes it runs on a console. However, I can install SNES9x on an Xbox. That doesn't magically make every SNES9x glitch legitimate.
The difference here is that the emulator is part of the official release. If you remove the emulator, you are no longer playing the wii version of zelda oot, you are playing the n64 version.
What this boils down to, is that the only way to do this run without absusing emulation glitches is to do the run in dolphin,
Actually, it is still abusing an emulation glitch. Just because Nintendo wrote the VC, doesn't magically make everything about their emulation perfect.
And, yes it runs on a console. However, I can install SNES9x on an Xbox. That doesn't magically make every SNES9x glitch legitimate.
I believe rog's point (and I think this is a good one) is that emulating the game on Dolphin is a faithful emulation of the Virtual Console version of the game.
I'm inclined to say stick with Mupen and ignore any other differences unless Dolphin's emulation is improved to the point where we can reliably use it to TAS as we please. Regardless, this is a trickier issue than I thought at first glance.
Edit: I believe I stated my view in another thread that emulation errors are par for the course. We have to embrace that even with a nearly perfect emulator, there will still be subtle differences in the game. This has been important in several issues over the years. (An example that comes to mind is the limited mobility of the physical analog stick due to the controller's plastic housing, compared with the theoretical range of movement a game will accept.) I even went so far as to say that if you loaded a ROM of Earthbound and it emulated perfectly as Super Mario World, then as long as it's beaten as fast as possible and no fixes are offered, then such a run would be perfectly valid. My viewpoint was met with some resistance, however.
I don't remember the topic and I don't care to search for it, but you're welcome to view my posting history to dredge it up.
The difference here is that the emulator is part of the official release. If you remove the emulator, you are no longer playing the wii version of zelda oot, you are playing the n64 version.
Agreed. Which makes it a sticky situation. It is basically an emulator-wrapped game. There is no easy answer.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Running an emulator inside an emulator?
Anyway...
What is a virtual console game? An emulator and a ROM. I've even gotten the ROM image out of a couple of NES VC games. It's even in iNES format. Sometimes minor changes are made to the game. For example, Tecmo Bowl was censored of any licensed players, and does not have any roster display at the title screen.
So playing a virtual console game is no different from using any other emulator to run the game.
So TASing a virtual console game because it's a different revision of the game with something new in it? Cool. Extract the ROM and run it in a regular emulator.
But I can't think of any real reason to use Nintendo's emulator emulated on a Wii. That's "Yo Dawg" territory right there.
I'm inclined to say stick with Mupen and ignore any other differences unless Dolphin's emulation is improved to the point where we can reliably use it to TAS as we please. Regardless, this is a trickier issue than I thought at first glance.
Dolphin already works beautifully. Serious emulation issues are extremely rare, with the vast majority games running perfectly. Recording works even better in dolphin than in mupen: it has thus far shown to sync 100% of the time, over the last 3 months since save states were reworked.
The only significant problem with tasing on dolphin, is that it runs slow. A typical user can expect most games, including zelda, to run at around one third to 75% speed, using settings that work for tasing. A top of the line pc could run most (but not all) games at full speed.
Btw, I got curious: How do you know this?
Given that Nintendo has not (as stated) released the source, how do you know that the emulator has been written specifically for the PPC?
For it to be specifically targeted at the PPC it would either have portions of PPC asm or require (for some reason) a PPC-specific compiler. If this is the case, has Nintendo stated this somewhere? It might of course be that the emulator has been specifically written for the Wii (eg. to use its hardware or system libraries), but that's not the same thing as it having been written specifically for the PPC processor. (The executable binary running on the Wii has been compiled for the PPC, of course, so running the binary in another system would require emulation. But that's not the same thing as the emulator having been written for the PPC.)
I would guess that the emulator has been written in a portable language, and while it might use system-specific libraries, it would only be a question of porting those libraries for other platforms.
</nitpick>
I would guess that the emulator has been written in a portable language, and while it might use system-specific libraries, it would only be a question of porting those libraries for other platforms.
Easily portable or not, it almost certainly does, so it could not be run on standard pc hardware, as is.
</pedant>
How can you people create drama out of anything? At least try to profit from it.
I thought you guys loved whatever was commercially released. Now something is commercially released, effectively a different title, and you cry about it some more with "emulator in emulator!" bawwing?
Just play the damn game, it's a Zelda game so everyone will brainlessly plusupvote it anyway.
Whether the VC source code could be recompiled to run on another CPU doesn't mean much if we don't have it. All we have is the binary compiled for PPC. OoT itself could probably be recompiled to run on a PC too, if we had the code...
Dwedit wrote:
So TASing a virtual console game because it's a different revision of the game with something new in it? Cool. Extract the ROM and run it in a regular emulator.
Trick is it's not a different revision. It's the same binary, just packaged with an inaccurate emulator. But people want to say it's OK to ignore the inaccuracies, because Nintendo wrote the emulator, so it counts as TASing a Nintendo game...
Anyway...
What is a virtual console game? An emulator and a ROM. I've even gotten the ROM image out of a couple of NES VC games. It's even in iNES format. Sometimes minor changes are made to the game. For example, Tecmo Bowl was censored of any licensed players, and does not have any roster display at the title screen.
So playing a virtual console game is no different from using any other emulator to run the game.
So TASing a virtual console game because it's a different revision of the game with something new in it? Cool. Extract the ROM and run it in a regular emulator.
But I can't think of any real reason to use Nintendo's emulator emulated on a Wii. That's "Yo Dawg" territory right there.
