DarkKobold: This run had pretty abysmal feedback. I'd say that this game, especially on the NES, is not fit for publication. There are two better platforms for this game that might be publishable. Sorry, better luck next time.
Here you insult the whole country that played that game in '90-s and
Oh, get out of here with this bullshit. You're either a troll or complete idiot if you believe "SNES Tournament Fighters is the best and most popular version of that game, and the NES one is lousy and practically unknown" somehow translates to an insult of the entire country of Russia. (The place where I was born and grew up in)
feos wrote:
but I won't be surprized if you call Zen Intergalactic Ninja or Battletoads & Double Dragon also a shitty mess).
No, they're not. They're fun, flawed games whose NES versions are viable, decently popular, and most importantly, good choices for a TAS.
However, like your bizarre rant about graphics, these games have NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.
feos wrote:
I am personally insulted by your post,
If you're personally insulted by someone stating that a video game is garbage, you need to stay off this forum and the Internet in general. At least for a few years, until you grow up from being a baby.
IronSlayer wrote:
feos wrote:
PS: if anyone is interested, here you can watch the videos I mentioned: http://cowabunga.ru/forum/4 (both 2 threads).
Here I link the community and (surptize!) namely the the videos I was talking about, but:
I clicked on the two threads, actually.
Neither represents evidence of a community. One is several videos with odd names featuring gameplay of NES TMNT with obnoxious music blaring the whole time. So what?
I can invite a friend or two to play some obscure arcade beat em' up like Vigilante, call it the "Santa Claus Cup" like you did, and then put the recorded videos up on Youtube. Would that be evidence of an actual competitive and fan community for the game?
Absolutely not.
It's also telling that both topics have exactly ONE person replying, someone named "jokingly". (Likely yourself) In fact, it's not even made clear whether those videos occur between two human opponents, or you simply playing against the CPU.
feos wrote:
IronSlayer wrote:
the NES TMNT is a crappy, substandard fighter, though.
Are you fucking kidding me???
That was my exact reaction to your posts in this topic.
Regardless of what you think of NES TMNT, are you going to tell me with a straight face that SNES TMNT isn't better in every way?
If you want to claim something outlandish, like "The Zelda CD-i games are the best in the entire series!!!" that's fine, but then adding in something like "FUCK ANYONE who thinks Link to the Past is the best Zelda game!!" isn't going to help your case.
And claiming that saying that is tantamount to insulting my own country makes you look like a moron or a troll.
Suggesting SNES version (or Genesis one) is as offtopic as suggesting author to TAS Mortal Kombat instead of this game.
I disagree. Due to the limitations of the NES, the NES version of this game is quite ugly, while the SNES version has much better graphics and beautiful backgrounds. While they may be different games, I believe that those who suggested a TAS of the SNES version were just trying to helpfully suggest a game choice that would be more likely to be published. I'm sure that an entertaining TAS of this game can be made, but the SNES version has the advantage of looking and sounding better, which is likely to impact the viewers' overall impression of the movie and game choice. There was nothing malicious or unhelpful in my (and probably everyone else's) suggestion that the SNES version is more TAS-worthy, and I suggest that you assume good intentions unless there is reason to believe that someone posted with bad intentions.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
I suggest that you assume good intentions unless there is reason to believe that someone posted with bad intentions.
I didn't assume you had bad intentions when suggesting SNES version. I figured you just want to see a TAS of the game you like. So I explained why this isn't any more helpful than suggesting to TAS Mortal Kombat.
Since those games differ so much (not just graphically, but gameplay-wise), TASing experience with NES version won't help author to TAS SNES version. For him its a random game from some foreign console.
Actually I'm sure pure speedrun of SNES version won't be much more entertaining, the only solution here is playaround superplay.
hopper wrote:
Due to the limitations of the NES, the NES version of this game is quite ugly, while the SNES version has much better graphics and beautiful backgrounds.
OK, better graphics. What's more? Sound isn't any better, it's just different (chiptune vs. MOD music). Gameplay? NES version is the most balanced and dynamic fighter on its platform, and SNES version doesn't hold up to UMK3, KI and SF2.
IronSlayer, oh wow, you made a third post about that "shitty mess" and again give NO freacking reason of why you think you can call it like that. You prefer empty rhetoric of being a baby and getting out of here.
It's awesome how you don't see any difference between "shitty mess no one cares about" and "lousy and practically unknown". The latter is totally neutral, the fromer is an insult to the people who (again) played that game and grew up with it and know it as you never intended to (but you imagined you can shit on the thing you don't know, which shows only you as an idiot).
First, I didn't speak for the whole actual country, but only about those people who spend '90-s playing that game.
Second, I can say that TMNT TF was really the ONLY official fighting game for NES, the second one was named "Joy Mech Fight" and was Japanese only. The rest fightings our people played on 8-bit were pirated Mortal Kombats, pirated Fatal Fury, pirated Street Fighters, all of which can definitely be called shitty mess for those who played them and compared them to TMNT TF, or to original games from other consoles these were ported from.
The above info means that everyone who knows about Dendy and had played it back then with friends, knows TMNT TF and likes it. Yes, there are people that never actually played it back then (though they know about pirated ports), but no one can call it shitty mess seeing it now, especially after those ports.
So I have concluded that you had only SNES (which was EXTREMELY rare at those times, and the games for it were even more rare and expensive, which may not be the case for metropolitans though). The funny thing is that when those people who played NES Tournament Fighters checked SNES or Genesis versions of it, they coudn't get the same enjoyment from them. Probably because they were not done with that care and love the NES version was done with. Players feel that care and work a developer puts into a game, and if the latter only uses some common effects of a newer platform, it doesn't mean he put a good amount of work into it. And doesn't mean that game is BETTER than the one from an older console.
You know, the abilities shall be a bit tight for a creative person, that way he puts more work into OPTIMISATION and inventing catchy tricks and moves. Imagine a competition where an artist shall draw the most realistic picture with the less possible strokes. If you take a good amount of people to take part in such competition, you would be amazed by the result. Because not actual realism defines the value of a picture, but the ability of the author to catch out the most vivid features of the original. There shall still be some mystery and imperfectness, to leave the viewer a way to imagine the rest himself.
And if the abilities are TOO wide, people wouldn't be able to prodice a strong directed flow. That doesn't mean you shall keep the abilities tight all the way, it just means when you expand the power, you shall put more work to pull maximum out of it.
Here we see the thing I am talking about. After a hard work on some NES titles, developers might be amazed by SNES power and left the product not perfect, thinking the graphics and sound channels would do the work instead of them. The example of real SNES power is Donkey Kong, it represents something really mindblowing in all terms. But not everyone can put that much work into his prodict, leaving the graphical realism to satisfy the player's lust XD
As for the links I gave, you could do yourself a favor and lurk on that forum a bit more and find out that there are some tens of players that use Nestopia's kailera and carry on a huge amount of matches. And I AM NOT a part of this comunity and never tried to fight with them. Because I don't find myself good enough to struggle that nerds XD
Now either provide (at last) a real proof that this game is a shitty mess, or kill yourself (joke).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
My two cents about the game. I think it is a great game, the best NES fighting game, and I prefer the NES version over MD and SNES versions any time (played them all in 90s).
However, this does not make this particular TAS of the game good. It is too repetitive and thus boring. A playaround with some bugs and tricks would be certainly much more interesting.
A playaround with some bugs and tricks would be certainly much more interesting.
Can you name any more bugs than are mentioned here?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 1/8/2011
Posts: 74
Location: Saturn Valley Medical Center
Too repetitive and not very entertaining. Fighting games are pretty hard to get published, unless they're super glitchy. You had good technical value, but I would try a different game.
Suggesting SNES version (or Genesis one) is as offtopic as suggesting author to TAS Mortal Kombat instead of this game.
I disagree. Due to the limitations of the NES, the NES version of this game is quite ugly, while the SNES version has much better graphics and beautiful backgrounds.
This is true, but is not the reason for my condemnation of the NES version. In terms of gameplay, the NES TMNT is an absolute mess. It's missing frames, is based completely around brain-dead tic throws, and has no combo system to speak of.
The game is as basic and boring of a fighter as one can make. Really though, that's par for the course for fighters on the NES. The console just doesn't have the capability to provide the nuance and depth a 2D fighter needs.
feos wrote:
You prefer empty rhetoric of being a baby and getting out of here.
I would talk a lot more about the weaknesses in gameplay (see above) if you showed the slightest interest in actually discussing it, instead of flinging malformed, juvenile insults my way for daring to disparage NES TMNT.
And yes, you are acting like a little baby. Someone doesn't like a game you do, and you claim they have personally insulted you. I can't imagine anything more immature and childish.
feos wrote:
(but you imagined you can shit on the thing you don't know, which shows only you as an idiot).
I've played NES TMNT, actually. It sucks. You can't control everyone's opinion.
feos wrote:
The rest fightings our people played on 8-bit were pirated Mortal Kombats, pirated Fatal Fury, pirated Street Fighters, all of which can definitely be called shitty mess for those who played them and compared them to TMNT TF, or to original games from other consoles these were ported from.
So the argument is that because NES SF2, MK, and FF were completely unplayable pieces of shit, NES TMNT isn't so bad by comparison? Wow, great reasoning!
I wonder; do you drink rotten milk every night, because compared to dry dog shit, it doesn't taste so bad?
feos wrote:
Now either provide (at last) a real proof that this game is a shitty mess, or kill yourself (joke).
As if we need any more evidence that you're a whiny baby throwing a temper tantrum when he doesn't get his way...
So the argument is that because NES SF2, MK, and FF were completely unplayable pieces of shit, NES TMNT isn't so bad by comparison? Wow, great reasoning!
I wonder; do you drink rotten milk every night, because compared to dry dog shit, it doesn't taste so bad?
Continue seeing what your whim shows you. But to reply to another folly you say, I was speaking about the fact that our people that spend their childhood in '90-s know and love TNMT TF, therefore you shit on the thing they love and you think it's perfectly acceptable. I won't do the same thing towards you to show you the example, or to express my attitude, neither would I doubt in real arguments my opponent brings in to prove his opinion. But hey, how can you proof a whim?
I've played NES TMNT, actually.
When?
Someone doesn't like a game you do, and you claim they have personally insulted you.
If I don't like someone's mother, can I call her a whore in his face? And in case you would try to invert my words once again, no, the game didn't give me birth, the mother is an example one loves and values.
EDIT:
In terms of gameplay, the NES TMNT is an absolute mess. It's missing frames, is based completely around brain-dead tic throws, and has no combo system to speak of.
The game is as basic and boring of a fighter as one can make. Really though, that's par for the course for fighters on the NES. The console just doesn't have the capability to provide the nuance and depth a 2D fighter needs.
I conclude once more you were actually a SNES owner. But evaluating NES games basing on SNES, Arcade or Genesis point of view is ridiculous!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Continue seeing what your whim shows you. But to reply to another folly you say, I was speaking about the fact that our people that spend their childhood in '90-s know and love TNMT TF, therefore you shit on the thing they love and you think it's perfectly acceptable.
Again, this is the attitude of the baby.
"Someone insulted a game/book/movie I love, ergo they have insulted me personally."If you have a problem with people stating their honest opinions about a game, then once again, you're better off staying away from Internet forums.
feos wrote:
If I don't like someone's mother, can I call her a whore in his face? And in case you would try to invert my words once again, no, the game didn't give me birth, the mother is an example one loves and values.
HAHAHAHA. You have to be trolling me. Like, seriously?
You just compared insulting NES TMNT to insulting your own mother?! No wonder you're so fucked up; I doubt a game cartridge is a very helpful parent!
feos wrote:
I conclude once more you were actually a SNES owner.
If you want to defend your mother so badly, why not respond to my concrete criticism?
By the way, the SNES version of TMNT does NOT rely on tic throws and there is an actual combo system in place, albeit a simple one.
fiskerN wrote:
IronSlayer wrote:
I wonder; do you drink rotten milk every night, because compared to dry dog shit, it doesn't taste so bad?
Тебя видимо сильно задело живое, за то что тебе сделали правильное замечание.
You think the nonsense feos spouted constitutes an appropriate rebuttal?
fiskerN wrote:
И ты со своими оскорблениями перешёл уже на личности.
I realize it's not your native language, but I urge you to go back, read through the topic, and mark who started making personal remarks about other members first.
More importantly, instead of chastising me, why don't you spend some time improving your run of NES TMNT or (even better) making a worthwhile run of the SNES version?
Hm, I have serious misgivings about your reading ability, IronSlayer. Even after I write the case of incorrect interpretation of my words, and write what I mean exactly, you still find it interesting to invert them the exact way I tried to prevent. It's like that picture:
http://pic4you.ru/allimage/y2012/03-25/16780/1852731-thumb.jpeg
EDIT:
IronSlayer wrote:
In terms of gameplay, the NES TMNT is an absolute mess. It's missing frames, is based completely around brain-dead tic throws, and has no combo system to speak of.
The game is as basic and boring of a fighter as one can make. Really though, that's par for the course for fighters on the NES. The console just doesn't have the capability to provide the nuance and depth a 2D fighter needs.
feos wrote:
Evaluating NES games basing on SNES, Arcade or Genesis point of view is ridiculous!
IronSlayer wrote:
why not respond to my concrete criticism?
Oh you!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
feos, you're really too passionate about the game.
IronSlayer wrote:
It's missing frames, is based completely around brain-dead tic throws, and has no combo system to speak of.
What's missing frames? Are you talking about lag? Then you're wrong, there's no more lag than in Super Mario Bros.
It is not based on throws, it's just that throws are the fastest TASing tactic. When playing the game in real time, you won't be able to abuse throws that much, because the frame window for buttonpress is rather small.
There's no combo system. Oh yes, and there's no fatalities and 2vs2 mode! And no other features common for modern fightings.
A game doesn't need to encompass everything, it can be fun by having solid set of its own rules.
NES version has more creative game design than SNES version.
SNES version is your average fighting where you only need to memorize all attacks and combos and then just rely on your reflexes to settle attacks with defenses. Maybe I'm not aware, but is there anything innovative or experimental in that game?
Now, NES version has this frantic rivalry for the ball dropped by Splinter from time to time (it's not shown in the TAS). Since the ball can overpower any attack (but also can be blocked and then intercepted), players have to estimate priorities differently than in typical fightings. Some experienced players can work wonders by catching the ball mid-jump and then unleashing it before landing.
You probably tried to play the game using behavioural patterns from SF and GG, and got beaten quickly. The game has more depth than you think.
And the game was kinda legendary here back in 90s among those who couldn't afford Genesis with its MK (as for SNES, I remember only one guy from our town having it at the time). Your insults to the game can be compared to calling SMB1 shitty, because it lacks features from SMW.
If you have a problem with people stating their honest opinions about a game, then once again, you're better off staying away from Internet forums.
This isn't the first time one of your opinions stirs up drama. In fact, this has been the case several times since you returned to this forum. There are many ways to state an opinion about something, but your word choices and tone make most of your opinions rude and aggravating. While feos may need to avoid Internet forums, you may want to improve your netiquette.
AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3
xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D
Help improving TASVideos!
If I avoid interner forums, how else could I talk to the people that have a contrary opinion on such speciffic subjects? I would stay stagnated, like living in an incubator. I must improve my thinking and such situations are the best way.
I love to find out my notion on something is obsolete. I love to increase by knowledge. That's why I always am waiting for counter-evidences. And each one is examined for being really valid.
Another thing needing an improvement is emotions, but sometimes the subject touched is too important to stay calm after anything. One shall not give up the thing he loves and values. Doesn't matter, be it a person or an object.
In this case, a developer put true love into the game, and the player feels it and loves it back. No one is alowed to shit on that.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
fisker or feos maybe, you should try a superplay instead.Nobody's had much sucess in speedruns of FGs,because they're not entertaining to our audience of people who are only impressed by a large quantity of graphical shit on the screen.
TASvideos might be the polar opposite of the average game consumer,people who want the brightest,shiniest and most realistic graphics while here we have the necessity for bugs,corruption of game states but still keep the unrespecting attitude for niche games and just plain optimized gameplay for those who appreciate it.
TAS i'm interested:
megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched
fighting games with speed goals in general
What's missing frames? Are you talking about lag? Then you're wrong, there's no more lag than in Super Mario Bros.
No, not lag; the game simply has few animation frames (for attacking, blocking, hitstun, blockstun, etc.), which necessarily make the design space of the game much simpler and more primitive. That's simply a limitation of the NES.
AnS wrote:
It is not based on throws, it's just that throws are the fastest TASing tactic. When playing the game in real time, you won't be able to abuse throws that much, because the frame window for buttonpress is rather small.
I don't think you understood what I was saying. I mentioned tic throws. A tic throw is when you perform an attack (often a jab or short) to create a blockstun state for the opponent and take advantage by throwing them, as they can't recover in time.
Since NES TMNT has no reversals and few animation frames, this necessarily makes for a very braindead game with a degenerate strategy.
AnS wrote:
There's no combo system. Oh yes, and there's no fatalities and 2vs2 mode! And no other features common for modern fightings.
Fatalities and 2 vs. 2 are completely irrelevant to a fighting game's depth, strategy, and viability as an interesting title. However, the lack of a combo system, the most basic element of ANY FIGHTER, is.
You might as well argue that a platformer without jumping isn't missing anything significant. Yeah, you can find an exception here and there (Bionic Commando), but it's a massive missing piece which needs something really amazing and unique to make up for it.
Sadly, that's not the case for NES TMNT.
AnS wrote:
NES version has more creative game design than SNES version.
SNES version is your average fighting where you only need to memorize all attacks and combos and then just rely on your reflexes to settle attacks with defenses. Maybe I'm not aware, but is there anything innovative or experimental in that game?
Absolutely. Have you watched high-level SNES TMNT play? There's a lot more where this comes from, but here's a completely random example;
Link to videoAnS wrote:
You probably tried to play the game using behavioural patterns from SF and GG, and got beaten quickly. The game has more depth than you think.
Huh? Why reference Guilty Gear, which is the most complicated fighting series ever made? That's like saying that applying the principles of chess to Tic-Tac-Toe got me beat at it. Like...what?!
Anyways, I fiddled around a bit with NES TMNT with a friend back in the day. We didn't discover anything interesting going on. That video feos linked to of "high-level play" (still not clear who the players were) doesn't appear to show any new tactics or ideas I wasn't aware of, either.
It's just another crappy NES fighter.
Zeupar wrote:
This isn't the first time one of your opinions stirs up drama. In fact, this has been the case several times since you returned to this forum. There are many ways to state an opinion about something, but your word choices and tone make most of your opinions rude and aggravating. While feos may need to avoid Internet forums, you may want to improve your netiquette.
It's so deliciously ironic when someone pontificating about "netiquette" comes across as a massively arrogant douchebag themselves. Congratulations, Zeupar.
And sorry to let you down douche, but I will continue to state my opinion about games in whatever tone I wish to. If that offends certain people (yourself included, apparently), that is their problem.
"Oh my God, you insulted a game I like! You have thus insulted me personally!!!"
Looks like you love being ridiculous, IronSlayer.It's like blaming Newton for not being able to invent a TV-set. "Freacking Newton sucked so much that he didn't use the techniques that appeared several hundred years after his death!"
What's common in a 16+ bit platform is simply impossible for 8 bit. Well, you also can blame developers for not adding a special chip to the cart, but it's (again) ridiculous.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
a combo system, the most basic element of ANY FIGHTER
You missed 'MODERN'. Combo systems took their part in the game design of fighting games in 1993. Prior to this there were successful games like SF, SF2, MK1, MK2 and few others. Some of them even managed to define the genre itself despite of lack of a combo system.
Looks like you love being ridiculous, IronSlayer.It's like blaming Newton for not being able to invent a TV-set. "Freacking Newton sucked so much that he didn't use the techniques that appeared several hundred years after his death!"
What's common in a 16+ bit platform is simply impossible for 8 bit. Well, you also can blame developers for not adding a special chip to the cart, but it's (again) ridiculous.
What's your point, exactly?
16-bit fighting games exist. They have combo systems. They have reversals. They have way more animation frames than 8 bit fighting games do. (an extremely unpopular genre for a reason) They're deeper, more interesting, better games as a result. Yes, the inferiority of 8-bit fighting games has to do with the limitations of the hardware. No, this fact does not magically make the games better and more fun.
And the part about "several hundred years" is silly; NES TMNT was released in 1994, several years AFTER the first iterations of SF2 and Mortal Kombat, all of which had combo systems, reversals, and vastly superior quality in every way.
In fact, 1994 was the same year Super Turbo came out, to this day still widely considered the greatest fighting game ever. Pretending these were the Dark Ages for fighters is either disingenuous or ignorant.
Few facts screwed again. NES TMNT TF was developed and first released in 1993. First MK that had an actual combo system was MK3, released in 1995. Even if you count the thing that MK2 had as a combo system, it was released in 1993. So it was zero years after the first MK game that had a combo system in the best case.
