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Posted: 5/1/2004 1:40 AM
Post subject: Re: "Cheating" in games
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Yggdrasil
Joined: 4/30/2004
Posts: 95
Location: Asatru Heaven
Therealssjlink wrote:
Well, If that is what you believe then I cannot say anything to change your mind. The videos are made to be cool, not to show off superhuman skills.
A wise man once said... flame comes from the idiot with ignorance, but firewall engulfs sooner or later. :eyes:
Posted: 5/1/2004 1:51 AM
Post subject: Re: "Cheating" in games
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Bob_Whoops
Former player
Joined: 3/19/2004
Posts: 710
Location: USA
pointPlayer wrote:
I personally love making videos to record my accomplishments. Perhaps I'm brave, but I only record my play on actual consoles with my DVD recorder. I prefer adult games such as Golden Eye 64 and Halo over games that were designed for children in the 1980's. When doing this I turn up difficulty levels to give the computer the advange. My videos capture a fearless master overcoming incredible odds.
Most people are afraid when they play games?? o_O Why are you even posting here? We all enjoy this, and you are not going to change our mind. And since when are shooting games automtically made for adults? I've enjoyed both games as a kid, and many adults play nintendo games. Just because something 2-d does not mean that it was meant for kids. Anyway, I'd like to see some of your videos before I recognize you as a master. Btw,most game's bots are pretty easy. Try doing something challanging.
Posted: 5/1/2004 2:28 AM
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Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
honestly everyone, just give it a rest, nobody is going to win this endless argument; play what you like however you like, just don't bother anyone about it.
Posted: 5/1/2004 7:18 AM
Post subject: Definitions for Game Movie making...
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Yggdrasil
Joined: 4/30/2004
Posts: 95
Location: Asatru Heaven
I take these with respect for Arc, from Arc's main page: (THREE qualifications for video game runs) Speed Run: Videos of amazing achievements by humans on a continous, real-time attempt ('run' implies continuity/flow.) No saves states, etc. are used. They are based on minimizing the amount of time needed to complete the game. Time Attack: Videos that are made for entertainment purposes. They attempt to be theoretically perfect (often meaning as quickly as possible.) They are created by any means that the game allows (but there is no cheating or video editing.) More. Aesthetic Form: Videos that are not focused on time. They are games that have automatic scrolling or require certain actions by the player for a set amount of time. They focus on doing amazing actions in the game. Bouncing to get 1-Ups on the ships in SMB3 is an example of an Aesthetic Form within a Time Attack. The Aesthetic form I think fits quite well for some of these NES game movies made. Also I see definitions similar to this @ Planetquake.com 's SDA archive (speed runs, from continuous play ... such as the much talked about 100% speed run on Metroid Prime in 1:37 ) <rant>What I hope to establish from this is a concensus that there are many ways to enjoy these classic games. Being a 2nd-gen console gamer, I didn't grow up with the C64 or coleco, but the NES is and will remain a wonderful baseline in video game history in my, and I hope others' minds as well.</rant> :)
Posted: 5/1/2004 2:14 PM
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Booda
Joined: 4/26/2004
Posts: 149
My perspective: These websites use house rules. If you'd be willing to agree to use the Free Parking jackpot in Monopoly, which isn't actually a rule in the game, then it should not be beyond imagination to agree to the techniques used in time attacks. Also, look at how many variations of poker there are and you'll also see that people like to change the rules a bit to make things more fun for themselves. It keeps things interesting. If you disagree with them, that's fine. Insisting that they conform to your rules is not fine. Remember, they're games. Not the foundation of a religion. Christ won't come down and punish anyone for doing things a little differently.
Posted: 5/3/2004 11:01 AM
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Warp
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
The Quake Done Quick speedruns are still considered speedruns even though they were made level by level (you can think about it as if they were made by making a quicksave at the beginning of each level). In certain games, such as Quake, a certain amount of "quicksaving" (in this case between levels) are allowed and still not considered "cheating" even by these purists who don't tolerate any emulator tricks. The most important thing about QdQ speedruns is that each level has been played "honestly", that is, realtime real playing without any aids not normally available in the game. That is, what you see is exactly what the player actually played. (Of course the player played the level hundreds if not thousands of times to achieve what you see, but the run you are seeing is still one contiguous real-time achievement). This raises a question: If for example SMB was done in the same way, that is, no "cheats" (if you like to call them that way) are used except for quicksaves between levels, would that still be called a "speedrun with no cheats"? If no, then why not?
Posted: 5/3/2004 8:41 PM
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GSofficial
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 11
Frankly, the reason this argument is never going to get resolved is that you both have completely different goals. Bisqwit's goal is to be entertaining. Sdkess goal is to be skillful. I know this because I have downloaded some of the videos from Twin Galaxies, and no offense, but it's some of the most boring crap I've ever watched. Who wants to play Burgerman for 24 hours? It's ridiculous. I downloaded a speed run of a Tomb Raider level that was touted as being "awesome"... it was 2 minutes long, and I couldn't even sit through 1 minute of it. Okay, so I take back that "no offense" comment. Anyways, I hope you guys don't think you're competing with one another, because you both have completely different goals, and thus, are competing on completely different levels. Flame on!
Posted: 5/3/2004 8:56 PM
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Bob_Whoops
Former player
Joined: 3/19/2004
Posts: 710
Location: USA
No, we realize that. We're just tired of people that call us cheaters. The only people that we are competing against is ourselves :p
Posted: 5/4/2004 2:09 AM
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TSA
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 186
Heh, I think people are getting way to obsessed over terminology here. I personally don't care what the definition of Speed Run, Time Attack, of Aesthetic is according to somebody. Because, according to those definitions, a video can be all three. There not mutually exclusive. I think the problem stems from the term "cheating". How you define it is up to you, but I usually took it as "if the game lets you do it, it's not cheating". Cheating is breaking the rules. But who makes up the rules? Is it the game's coding? But then, is something like the Konami Code allowed to give one infinite life or ammo cheating, if it was part of the original coding? Is it just using a device or hacking the gaming? In all honesty, this is an argument that can't be won, and has no point. The point that should be addressed is how to properly filter "game videos" into categories. As in, each video, whether it be with no aid, with the aid of an emulator, or the aid of a cheat or glitch, should have it's own "category". That way, you can group everything and seperate it all. Thus, every type of video, regardless of your beliefs, has a viable place where it has some value. Now, onto the issue some people brought about up "emulators let you cheat". Ok, first of all - as a "legit" speedrunner, I will say a bunch of my ability comes from "knowing" what to do. I play a game over and over, and memorize what to do and what will happen. This is what some people here do. The difference is the "time" you have to memorize. Emus let you do seconds. Real runs can be mins to hours. But then the argument comes down to human memory and the capacity for execution of stored instruction. And this my friends, is a unique person to person issue. We're not all equal, and some people will have advantages. Like sports. Not everyone, even if they know what to do, can execute as well as others. But yes, I get that "emus are like handicaps, they shrink the margin for error, let you record in mere seconds so you can redo stuff over and over". And to that I say, there HAS to be somebody who is just so good at a game, they could do what these runs let you. Nothing is impossible. It's just do you want it bad enough if you have the ability. On another front, the "speed reduction", I'm going to have to take a scretch here and ask a "what if?" What if some day, we have technology to allow humans to alter the flow of time? What if a human, naturally, had the ability to perceive time at different speeds? Should they be penalized for their ability? No. This stems back to my idea. Everything should have its own category. That way, everyone goes home happy, that way everyone has a place. If you wish to continue this debate on and on, so be it. You'll never reach an end the way most of you are going about it. Besides, with this whole ordeal, we're sort of cheating ourselves. I don't know about you, but I first played a video game because it was fun. I'm sure people first made games to make something fun and entertaining (before money...). If this isn't fun anymore, and it gets all argumentative and hateful as it is now, then you've just destroyed the spirit of gaming. ;) Have a nice day.
Posted: 5/4/2004 2:53 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
I'm going to describe a scenario similar to the creation of emulator speed runs and I want to know if you think people would complain about it. Suppose that some time in the future, someone writes a program that can play chess perfectly. The person lets the program play against itself to produce a perfect game of chess, and it is so well played that any chess fan who saw it would be in complete awe. Two people memorize the perfect game, and replay the game against each other while it is being broadcasted on television so that chess fans around the world can watch it. The two people tell the audience how the game was produced and that they are showing it to chess fans for the sole purpose of entertaining them. Would the people watching the perfect game of chess start calling the two people cheaters and say they should learn to play the game the "clean" way, or would they watch in amazement as each move is played with such cleverness and brilliance, and praise the author of the program for putting the effort into creating something so entertaining to watch?
Posted: 5/4/2004 2:56 AM
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Arc
Editor, Experienced player (814)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
NES TAS of 2021
a video can be all three. There [sic] not mutually exclusive.
Do you have an example? How can a video simultaneously both not be rerecorded and be rerecorded, while trying to perfect the time where the time is fixed?
Posted: 5/4/2004 3:02 AM
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Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
If they tell the audience viewing the chess game beforehand, then they wouldn't be called cheaters since they didn't take credit for the perfect play. The problem with time attack videos is that people aren't told in advance how they were made. Instead, some random person on some random forum\site posts: "Hey check out this video SMB3 I saw, this guy has mad skillz!." So then the people following the link on that random forum\site feel "cheated" when they hear the truth AFTER they watch the video.
Posted: 5/4/2004 3:03 AM
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TSA
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 186
Speed Run: Videos of amazing achievements by humans on a continous, real-time attempt ('run' implies continuity/flow.) No saves states, etc. are used. They are based on minimizing the amount of time needed to complete the game. [/i] Time Attack: Videos that are made for entertainment purposes. They attempt to be theoretically perfect (often meaning as quickly as possible.) They are created by any means that the game allows (but there is no cheating or video editing.) More. [/i] Aesthetic Form: Videos that are not focused on time. They are games that have automatic scrolling or require certain actions by the player for a set amount of time. They focus on doing amazing actions in the game. Bouncing to get 1-Ups on the ships in SMB3 is an example of an Aesthetic Form within a Time Attack. [/i] A human player, playing Super Mario Bros 3, who demonstrates the amazing achievement of a theoretically perfect run, which also happens to do amazing actions in the game. Where does that go?
Posted: 5/4/2004 3:12 AM
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Yggdrasil
Joined: 4/30/2004
Posts: 95
Location: Asatru Heaven
Booda wrote:
My perspective: These websites use house rules. If you'd be willing to agree to use the Free Parking jackpot in Monopoly, which isn't actually a rule in the game, then it should not be beyond imagination to agree to the techniques used in time attacks.
Wait, "Free Parking Lot" wasn't part of the game rules... /me cries over lost $$. But seriously... I like the addition of TASrun to the vernacular. Tool-assisted can mean anything other than the original cart on the original system. "Can't we all just get along, and keep the ignorami from dividing those who enjoy these videos of video game classics." I'd actually like to see older consoles, but the Famicom/NES from Nintendo was where video games came to the household market. (I am heiðindómr) :)
Posted: 5/4/2004 3:20 AM
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Michael_Fried
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
The problem with time attack videos is that people aren't told in advance how they were made. I just download the fmvs so I haven't seen the avis, but does Bisqwit put some kind of title at the beginning of the videos telling that it was made with an emulator?
Posted: 5/4/2004 3:34 AM
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Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
At the beginning of the video it says: "The homepage of this emulator movie: http://tasvideos.org/" I actually didn't notice the word emulator until I paused it since the screen lasts for about a second at most. But putting a long disclaimer at the beginning of the movie may be distracting. (i.e "this movie was made with savestates, and slowdowns on famtasia emulator, it is not a continuous, one-sitting run etc.) Morimoto's initial SMB3 run didn't have any explicit message saying it was made on Famtasia, which made many people assume otherwise. (though it probably wasn't intentional)
Posted: 5/4/2004 5:06 AM
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Boco
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
Deviance wrote:
At the beginning of the video it says: "The homepage of this emulator movie: http://tasvideos.org/" I actually didn't notice the word emulator until I paused it since the screen lasts for about a second at most. But putting a long disclaimer at the beginning of the movie may be distracting. (i.e "this movie was made with savestates, and slowdowns on famtasia emulator, it is not a continuous, one-sitting run etc.)
In the older videos, there is a screenshot of the Famtasia info window, which gives the movie's title (and author), compeltion time (in frames and minutes:seconds), and rerecord count. In the newer videos, this information (along with "Created in Family Computer Emulator 5.10"), minus rerecord count (why?) is in subtitles at the beginning of the video. Please pay more attention before you claim that they're not tagged.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Posted: 5/4/2004 5:27 AM
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Deviance
Former player
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
I never claimed that bisqwit's movies weren't "tagged", in fact if you read the end of my post carefully I was referring primarily to Morimoto's video as an example since it preceded the recent movies made on this site. I even went against appending anything else to the beginning of the movie such as a disclaimer. You also have to understand that not everybody who views the videos has used or is familiar with famtasia emulator, hence they may not understand the brief display of that famtasia window. You have misunderstood my point, I'm not saying the problem lies with the videos; I was just responding to Michael's chess analogy, stating the argument of certain people claim they were "cheated."
Posted: 5/4/2004 2:49 PM
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Boco wrote:
In the newer videos, this information (along with "Created in Family Computer Emulator 5.10"), minus rerecord count (why?) is in subtitles at the beginning of the video.
I don't think the rerecord count is very much needed. I don't actually like those subtitles - they are sometimes hard to read / distinguish from the text outputted by the game - i.e. white text on black background, exactly the same as on the screen anyway... The dialog way was better, despite that it couldn't fit a very long movie name. But the current technique (capturing the XPutImage calls) doesn't allow it.
Posted: 5/4/2004 8:11 PM
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Arc
Editor, Experienced player (814)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 534
Location: Arizona
NES TAS of 2021
A human player, playing Super Mario Bros 3, who demonstrates the amazing achievement of a theoretically perfect run, which also happens to do amazing actions in the game. Where does that go?
Ok, here is a new example: Evangelion: An anime series by Gainax. It has a red-haired girl. She pilots EVA 02. Xenogears: An RPG by Square. It has a red-haired girl. She pilots Vierge. I then say this: Asuka is a red-haired girl. She pilots EVA 02 and does not pilot Vierge. Where does Asuka go? Do you answer: a) Asuka is a red-haired girl. Both Evangelion and Xenogears have a red-haired girl. So she can be in both. or b) Asuka is a red-haired girl that pilots EVA 02 and does not pilot Vierge. So she must only be in Evangelion.
Posted: 2/19/2005 11:38 PM
Post subject: can we do it without cheat?
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Unknown_User
Joined: 1/1/2022
Posts: 1716
i aprove alot that ppl are cheating but after i saw these movies like smb 1 or smb3 ... well i got old nes and i pluged it to starting to beast records...ok of course i found that few games were cheated and im disapointed but i can do what they do by my self without cheat so just try to beast them without cheats!!!!!!
Posted: 2/19/2005 11:45 PM
Post subject: Re: can we do it without cheat?
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Bisqwit
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
1. Replying to a 9 months old thread = bad. 2. I suggest a spellchecker or maybe taking lessons at English. 3. "If I were a rich man" type arguments have no value. I'm locking this thread.
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