Step 1: I pressed A on frame #396
Step 2: I pressed A on frame #498
Step 3: I pressed <^>v on frame #461
Shoutouts to Abahbob
Nach: A run which merely demonstrates an idea is nothing more than an idea. We have a great place for ideas, it's the game resources section.
Just like for a game like Chess, or other classic board games where the only important thing about the game is the move list, here too, nothing about the run is important other than how you made it crash. How long it took is not interesting.
The run itself is also not interesting, nor does the vast majority of the viewers find anything worthwhile in this movie.
Based on not presenting any redeemable quality for a tool-assisted superplay, an arbitrary record no one cares about, and the core of the run which is merely an idea that can suffice as a paragraph in game resources, I am rejecting.
I see that you're the same guy who submitted the video for the "Zelda: The Wind Waker" Fastest Softlock.
First, I will say that I agree with Adelikat; there's some value in demonstrating things that will break games so badly that you cannot continue. I can't deny that. Such demonstrations might be nice on the Resources pages if necessary, but since you submitted it formally, we're here to talk business.
The fact of the matter is, your Fastest Softlock videos are highly unlikely to be accepted because they do not beat the game, which is presently a requirement for all submissions to this site unless you get special permission. (I failed to recall that there was a possibility of special case allowance for that in the rules, and I keep forgetting we do have a very few single-stage TASes floating around, simply because there are so very few of them).
This time, to be certain that I recalled correctly, I did actually look at the rules this time, and though I could've made a huge fool of myself for being wrong when I firmly believed I was right, as it turns out, my brain was indeed working that day: I was correct about the main stipulation of beating the game being in the rules.
You can check the rules here, though I'll quote in relevant part here with necessary emphasis:
The Rules wrote:
The movie must be complete
Your movie should begin from the console power-on and end when the last decisive action has been delivered. There are no specific rules for an exact endpoint but it must adhere to the following rules:
* It must beat the game.
* It must be able to reach the credits or end screen without requiring any further interaction; all input must come solely from the input file (e.g. configuring the emulator to autofire after the end of playback is not allowed). An exception has been allowed for Rygar.
* It should end with the last input. Don't leave any blank input at the end of the movie.
Under special consideration we might allow movies that play a only single level or a part of the game.
If you want your two Fastest Softlock videos approved, you're going to require a special exception, which in the case of Fastest Softlock, despite what (little, I feel) value it carries, I don't think is going to happen.
I'd like to see you make a TAS where you actually play through and beat a game, however; I do like your style (what little I get to see of it due to the category you're shooting for).
In the end, I'm once again going to have to withhold voting, because Adelikat (and/or other mods? I don't really know how they do special exception decisions) will need to make a call on the potential value of your softlock TASes.
If it is decided that they can be accepted, I will reconsider and vote at that time.
1/60 of a second is important; every frame matters.
For me, the value is identical to ending the game:
- You want to get the machine to a specific state as fast as possible.
You want the game in a specific state, not the machine. And the state is "game is complete". Besides, the trick is trivial to execute, even in realtime.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 2/20/2010
Posts: 209
Location: I'm in space
Nicos wrote:
I can fastlock any game in realtime with a big enough hammer...
lol I think this is both the funniest and strongest argument against publication, that one could easily beat this TAS in real-time. That said, I'm pretty sure that the submission is not meant to be taken seriously... so voting meh.
Oh, play it cool. Play it cool. Here come the space cops.
oh, come on, at least the Wind Waker one had to swim through the ocean.
I love glitchfestz, but this is just.. lazy...
My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =)
(ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ
Not impressive. There was no gameplay at all. You only pressed a few buttons on 3 frames and called it a run. Because of that, it's not entertaining, so it can't be published as a Moon, and it doesn't complete the game, so it can't be published in The Vault. There's really no place for this run to go but Gruefood.
He probably just has really bad internet and it took him 7 months to upload it.
That still wouldn't be a good excuse for submitting it to the site. Even if his Internet was that bad, it would take fewer months to upload it to Microstorage and post the link in the forum (submitting takes a while).
He probably just has really bad internet and it took him 7 months to upload it.
That still wouldn't be a good excuse for submitting it to the site. Even if his Internet was that bad, it would take fewer months to upload it to Microstorage and post the link in the forum (submitting takes a while).
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
NitroGenesis wrote:
Ace Of Hearts wrote:
I see that you're the same guy who submitted the video for the "Zelda: The Wind Waker" Fastest Softlock.
Unless there are double account shenanigans, than it's not the same guy.
Lmao. That's not me. Atleast I have some class to my pointless submissions. I feel bad that I started this shit though. I submitted my wind waker softlock because I felt that the issue of softlocks/demos/whatever hadn't been sorted out, and could use a decent discussion over an actual submission. Whenever it's 7 seconds and is crashed by something as simple as pressing all the buttons, that's sad.
Also, please don't shout out to me on a crappy submission like this.
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
I would like to address the counterarguments that have been mentioned so far.
The most important one is "it doesn't beat the game, so it doesn't follow the rules". First, the rules already allow exceptions "under special consideration". Second, rules aren't immutable. What's really important is why a rule exists. Here, the reason is because beating the game is a very interesting goal, and for me, softlocking a game as fast as possible is the same.
The other popular counterargument is "softlock is an arbitrary/uninteresting/non-valuable goal". While it is an arbitrary goal in the sense that it was not as designed, there are plenty of TAS with arbitrary goals already published, like the "reverse boss order" Super Metroid category. Also, as I mentioned earlier, softlocking a game in the general case is not trivial, and even less as a speedrun, because such a state is never as designed, again just like a "reverse boss order" run, so I see value in such a goal.
AKheon brought an interesting point about having a run geared towards failure instead of victory, but I don't think that's valuable enough as a goal since, failure opportunities are usually plentiful and very easy to achieve. It's not as clear for softlocks since it depends on the game's quality. Based on my QA experience, I don't think softlocks are that widespread and easy to achieve. One thing's for sure though, A Link to the Past is not a good example of a polished game.
Nicos also mentioned the problem of defining what constitutes a proper softlock. Personally, that would be "state obtained with input alone for which further input other than hard reset has any effect anymore on the output". The "hard" part is debatable obviously. but I think it's more interesting that way.
So the only thing that remains is the low popular entertainment value. But isn't this exactly why vault publications were created in the first place? Because these runs were valuable even if that value was not shared with most of the community? Speaking of which, submissions having a "lowest number on input" goal are in the same situation right now. I say, let these alternative runs be published in separate tiers so that those that don't see value in them can ignore them and those that do enjoy them can do so.
OmnipotentEntity wrote:
SmashManiac wrote:
- The fastest method to reach that state is a NP-problem.
Most video games are PSPACE-Complete or EXPTIME actually
But isn't this exactly why vault publications were created in the first place?
Unless I have fundamentally misunderstood something, no, it's not. By the argument you've proposed, then ANYTHING with ANY goal choice could be put into the vault as long as someone finds it entertaining, but entertainment is supposed to have nothing to do with the vault anyway so...
Edit:
Specifically
•Goal choice is limited to fastest completion time (any%), or full-completion (such as 100%, best ending).
◦Other goal choices are not eligible for this category.
◦Goal choice criteria must be clear and non-controversial
The other popular counterargument is "softlock is an arbitrary/uninteresting/non-valuable goal". While it is an arbitrary goal in the sense that it was not as designed, there are plenty of TAS with arbitrary goals already published, like the "reverse boss order" Super Metroid category.
It's important to realize that the site rejects most arbitrary goals. We've had all kinds of discussions about runs with the lowest score, or runs with minimum buttons pressed, and so on, and all of those were rejected. Super Metroid is really an exception here, not the rule.
Super Metroid is really an exception here, not the rule.
and even with super metroid or super mario games, we ALWAYS desagree on the goals / views, the entertainement / speed ratio, and all other factors like in-game/ real time timers...
but in all the cases when there is one, the "end of the game " state must be reached.
i found an interesting thread about it there:
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10470&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
while i was trying to remember of a run that got rejected cause it didn't finish the game but simply got the completed "flag" set ( of course my memory might get me wrong on this )
the only way fast lock "could" be incorporated in a TAS is if the game loops endlessly ( like donkey kong 3 / space invaders for atari) then locking the game after completing a loop "could" be conssidered as a good and entertaining way to close a run.
AKheon brought an interesting point about having a run geared towards failure instead of victory, but I don't think that's valuable enough as a goal since, failure opportunities are usually plentiful and very easy to achieve. It's not as clear for softlocks since it depends on the game's quality.
I think, if there was an objective records repository for fastest failure TASes, "game over", "softlock" and "crash" would be separate categories.
Indeed, most "fastest game over" runs would have no-brainer solutions. But every once in a while a particularly creative solution would show itself, making it all worthwhile again. Not to mention these runs would be so short that you could easily watch tons of them on one sitting... I'd really like it if such a records site existed.
Hey, so when did we forget that the entire purpose of speed runs is to entertain? Personally I find it pretty damn funny to see a game crashed within minutes or seconds of starting from an empty save file.
Why don't we do fastest death, fastest enemy kill, fastest jump? Because that'd be boring, unless someone found a strange and amusing way to do it. That's something that takes no effort at all. To break the game on the other hand requires at least to find a bug, then figure out how to exploit it as fast as possible. More importantly, it's fun to watch. It's a variation on the "playaround" theme.
SmashManiac wrote:
Nicos also mentioned the problem of defining what constitutes a proper softlock. Personally, that would be "state obtained with input alone for which further input other than hard reset has any effect anymore on the output". The "hard" part is debatable obviously. but I think it's more interesting that way.
I'd qualify making the game unwinnable as well. There are sometimes ways you can get into a situation where you can still move around, but can't do anything to continue, not even kill yourself. Examples can be found in Link's Awakening (early versions had a hole you could jump into and become stuck in) and Pokémon Green (a glitch lets you end up saved with 0 HP, which the game realizes and kills you after 4 steps, preventing you from ever reaching a place to recover).
Indeed, most "fastest game over" runs would have no-brainer solutions. But every once in a while a particularly creative solution would show itself, making it all worthwhile again. Not to mention these runs would be so short that you could easily watch tons of them on one sitting... I'd really like it if such a records site existed.
There was one for unassisted game overs, Speed Deaths Archive, but it closed down. (You can still find many of their videos on YouTube, though.)
It's an interesting enough concept to be, at least, worth doing on someone's user page on the wiki. (IIRC Zeupar was considering it?)
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