Topic by mazzeneko

Posted: 11/20/2004 1:48 PM

Post subject: Equinox

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mazzeneko

Former player

Joined: 6/26/2004
Posts: 139
Location: Kuopio, Finland

Anyone have the guts to start a Equinox time attack? :) I think it would be quite long but entertaining with all the nasty puzzles done quickly. Or perhaps played with only the knife and collect all the tokens and needed keys in the stages. There's a shortcut from world 3 to world 4 but you still have to complete world 3 to get the harp so it wouldn't help much.. but perhaps if you would like that world 4 weapon to clear world 3 faster? I own this on cart but never tried it with savestates. perhaps I'll try to make a teaser from Caladonia and decide if this'll be worth making. I just got lost in the second world when I played this with SNES so I'm not so confident with this game myself. (it has been almost 6-7 years when I played this last time..)

- mazzeneko

Posted: 12/31/2004 7:22 AM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

I thought I'd try doing a time attack of this, although I'm not very familiar with this game. So far I'm at the beginning of the 3rd dungeon (with 100% weapons+items collected so far) in 14 minutes... and starting to doubt how entertaining the run can be unless there are some major time-saving tricks I'm unaware of, given that there are 6 dungeons left. I wish there was a run button or some way to move faster; the character walks really slowly. And I think the collision detection has an over-active imagination...

Posted: 12/31/2004 8:49 AM

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Blechy

Former player

Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York

I think this is definitely the type of game which requires a good amount of planning, as well as glitch/bug testing, before beginning a run. Have you checked gamefaqs, david wonn's page, etc?

Posted: 12/31/2004 10:08 AM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

I agree a run of this will take more planning. I've checked gamefaqs, the walkthrough there could be more helpful but it seems to give the shortest route in most situations, assuming 100% collection of weapons and spells is desired. Which I'm not sure it is, but I think getting all or most of the spells is worth it because learning magic also increases MP, and some very useful spells (such as Unlock) consume lots of MP which takes time to get refills for. 100% weapons is probably not the fastest way though, but the dagger (1st weapon) is required and the shuriken (2nd weapon) seems to beat enemies a lot faster than the dagger. Which weapons and spells are optimal to use is the main thing I'm not sure about, and it's the real main reason I'm currently not continuing to do the run past the point where the optimal choices are obvious. I hadn't checked david wonn's page, but now I have and it has no particularly useful information on this game. Well, actually, the save and reload trick to warp to a room's entrance could save time, if that can record properly. About skipping dungeon 3... it would have to be done later on anyway so I don't see how doing it out of order would be faster. The game has absolutely no element of luck to it, as far as I can tell, so it's too bad that can't be manipulated. (Actually, maybe the timing of appearances of the overworld enemies are random, but they don't matter anyway.) The world map can be rotated to reduce the time it takes to walk around there. (shorter-than-manhattan distance if done properly) The collision detection is extremely strict, compared to what the size of the graphics suggest, although jumping at just the right moment can give 1 extra frame of leeway for squeezing past enemies. The character can only walk in 4 directions, although frame-by-frame alternation can sometimes make it look like 8 directions are possible, but it's not actually any faster for moving diagonally. Jumping and walking are exactly the same speed, but falling instead of jumping from a block is very slightly slower. It's possible to walk on the very edge of platforms around enemies that are on those platforms. When casting a spell, there is a movement delay which can be skipped by jumping. Weapons can be fired a lot faster than probably intended (i.e. autofire basically works) and with multishot weapons can be fired in multiple directions at what appears to be the same time (really 2 frames apart). It's also possible to shoot in one direction while walking in another direction, and to alter the speed of the projectile somewhat. Being closer to enemies saves a lot of time since the weapon hits sooner and all the game cares about when deciding if you can fire another weapon is how many of them are currently in the air. But if too close to the enemy, for some reason the weapon always "misses", I'm not sure if this is a bug or feature but it sure doesn't help. The only possibly useful bug I've found is that fired weapons that are still in the air when changing weapons will transform into the new weapon in midair, even if it shouldn't be possible to have that many of that kind in the air at once. But I'm not sure if this change is more than graphical and it probably wouldn't save any time anyway.

Posted: 12/31/2004 10:22 AM

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Blechy

Former player

Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York

I would suggest beating the game as you would normally, just using save states to prevent death or something and not striving for perfection at all. This will help you to build familiarity, and may cause you to realize things such as alternate level progressions that others haven't thought of because of your ability to use emulator tools.

Posted: 12/31/2004 8:58 PM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

Good point, guess that's the obvious first step... I was just listing what I know so far that's relevant to a time attack of it, and hoping maybe someone here knows some strategies or tricks, but if I'm actually going to finish a time attack of this I'd probably have to figure most of it out by playing it anyway. One question -- how long would be too long to be worth watching when it comes to a run of this game? I think that even with the best possible routes, there's no way it can be shorter than an hour and a half.

Posted: 12/31/2004 10:14 PM

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mazzeneko

Former player

Joined: 6/26/2004
Posts: 139
Location: Kuopio, Finland

Well, couple first worlds can be run quite fast actually. First world goes under 4 minutes easily. 2nd world you just skip the weapon but... Slow is actually a useful spell to abuse, besides Zap. I think this game could be ran under an hour. The dungeons aren't that large if you clear rooms without dying. It took me a week to complete with SNES... Oh yeah, Happy New Year!

- mazzeneko

Posted: 12/31/2004 11:08 PM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

I don't think it's worth it to skip the weapon in the 2nd dungeon. It's like 5 seconds out of the way and I'm able to kill the guard enemies a LOT faster with it. Slow is definitely useful, although maybe the time gained from abusing it doesn't make up for the time it takes to get it. Damage and Zap seem like major timesavers though, as does Unlock even though it can only be used a few times. Do you think it's worthwhile to get useless spells (like Heal) just for the MP so that better spells can be used more often?

Posted: 1/2/2005 1:15 AM
(Edited: 1/3/2005 9:31 AM)

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

Wow, this game takes a while playing normally and without a walkthrough. (It's harder to get lost in than Solstice though.) Anyway I've decided that: - Getting spells just for the MP is not worth the time. - Doing the 4th dungeon early to get a stronger weapon for the 3rd is not worth the time either, because the 3rd dungeon can be done without killing any enemies. - Getting the 3rd weapon (axe) is also a waste of time for the same reason. - Getting the 2nd weapon (shuriken) as soon as possible IS worth the time, because each shot does more damage and lots of enemies must be killed in that dungeon. I'm not sure about the Slow spell; I still haven't come across any rooms where that spell would save much time. (edit -- not anymore; Slow definitely saves time, not that much but enough to warrant getting it considering it also looks cooler when it's used.)

Posted: 1/2/2005 10:38 AM
(Edited: 1/4/2005 8:42 AM)

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

Maybe I should show what the run looks like so far. It's at http://www.filespace.org/nitsuja/Equinox_U.smv.zip It's the first 3 dungeons. ROM name = "Equinox (U).smc".

Posted: 1/3/2005 4:28 PM

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mazzeneko

Former player

Joined: 6/26/2004
Posts: 139
Location: Kuopio, Finland

Excellent work so far. Getting any other spell is kinda useless because it's gonna be more puzzle-based stuff in the later dungeons. Slow is enough to defeat those you need to. I think Zap is good but it costs too much to abuse it enough in the spots you need to kill stuff. Just slowing/perhaps Freezing? the enemies and whacking em with a weapon is enough. And, yes, this game gets you damn confused without a map of some sort. Luckily, there's all the maps you need in gamefaqs. Good for before-planning. Some suggestions if I may. I think there's few times you could walk faster on world map but it's so minimal that it would be quite useless to turn the angle all the time. (you could do that everytime you came across a tree or something..but not really neccesary). And there's a split second you could have damaged Sung-Sung when he popped from the ground? You threw a shuriken before he appeared and hit him faster. I'm just so happy that someone is making a Time Attack from this. I still love this game whatever other people say about this :). (I'm playing this on a console at the moment and I'm so stuck at 5th dungeon X) I think I need those maps more than you do..)

- mazzeneko

Posted: 1/4/2005 1:04 AM
(Edited: 1/4/2005 3:11 AM)

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

Thanks. The dungeons are getting more and more difficult to plan optimal routes through though. (Finally figured out a route for dungeon 3, which took longer than recording it did.) The maps on gamefaqs are a big help for planning, but they're still lacking some vital information (such as when rooms are one-way or blocked). Changing angles on the world map isn't always faster than walking around normally -- I'm trying to go with whichever takes less frames (although the difference is usually less than 20 frames). Sung-Sung can be hit a few frames earlier the second time he pops up and maybe a few other times, but I don't think it would add up to enough to kill him before he goes under the last time. According to the manual, Zap instantly kills all enemies in the room, so if there are any more rooms with multiple enemies that must be killed after/in dungeon 5, it could still be worth getting. Then again, a stronger weapon might do just as well if it's less out of the way to get. Either way, weapons and spells have no effect during boss battles. Also, as far as I can tell, the Unlock spell is actually required to beat the game, since the final dungeon has 7 white doors that must be opened and only 6 white keys.

Posted: 1/4/2005 3:05 AM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

I just found a nice glitch that allows me to jump on and off the top of spikes without dying, if they're next to a higher non-spiky block, which should save quite a bit of time... now to splice improvements into a few earlier rooms...

Posted: 1/4/2005 9:12 AM

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nitsuja

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)

Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687

OK, dungeon 3 is done, and I re-did a few of the rooms in dungeon 2. The smv is at: http://www.filespace.org/nitsuja/Equinox_U.smv.zip So far I've found the following useful bugs: - Pushing against the corner in a boss fight makes you invincible to all attacks. (!) - Blocks that just barely land on your head can be dropped anywhere by jumping away. - If you push against a (non-movable) block while falling onto spikes and hit the jump button right before hitting them, you'll jump off the top of the spikes unharmed. - Pushing against a gate that isn't falling makes you invincible to other gates. Once inside a gate that should've crushed you, jumping can push you on top of it. EDIT: I realized that a spell I thought I could skip is required, so I'll have to redo part of that dungeon to get it... But there seems to be barely any interest in this run and it's not looking particularly amazing, so I've put it on hold indefinitely.

Posted: 12/21/2007 11:32 AM

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derek82

Joined: 12/21/2007
Posts: 1

I’ve just watched this run and all I can say is, WOW! Been wanting to see a TAS of this one forever! Is there any chance for a future full released publication? I for one would be thrilled!

Posted: 1/6/2010 6:24 AM

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Landsavior

Joined: 6/25/2008
Posts: 5

The first two levels are really impressive, especially considering this is a game where you normally die in one hit ! For all those who haven't played it here are the videos on youtube (probably posted by derek82?) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ7M6NjIxdc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9ckTk-41Ls action, platforms, puzzles, good graphics, good music and nice glitches, a run of this game will be certainly highly rated.

Posted: 1/6/2010 4:01 PM

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Bezman

Joined: 2/7/2008
Posts: 185

I didn't think I'd enjoy watching those 2 videos, but seeing the maneouvering around enemies and jumping off spikes was pretty cool. I wouldn't watch a full run until I'd finished the game first (yet to do that myself...) but what's there so far is definitely entertaining to me.

I'm just some random guy. Don't let my words get you riled - I have my opinions but they're only mine.

Posted: 8/15/2021 12:52 AM

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FractalFusion

Editor, Skilled player (1938)

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3246

I did a test run of this game: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/73498944014628346 Can be improved still. It's based off the best known speedrun ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_erk13SUuvw ) as well as the (prior to today) only known full TAS ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHTLgZNsWak ). It's like 13 minutes faster. I also looked at nitsuja's old TAS. I did the first three dungeons somewhat faster as well.