Faster by 00:03.86 secs.
Well... the only comparison possible is that I pick up the weapon 3 frames faster on level 1 (first jump and punch later) and I'm faster on level 2 and level 4. Everything else (all levels generally) is mostly faster because I kill the enemies (which is planned by observing the current "Foreground Camera X" and "Player X" positions) to remove lags.
Miscellaneous
For viewer's discretion, I tried to minimize the shooting whenever I could without making the run slower. That's all. See you until my next TAS =)
feos: The tier system was introduced to allow publishing a great variety of games. And for Vault, the only priority is speed. TAS Guidelines say: "If you are not sure the game would be well received, don't include time sacrifices". Cross Fire is the type of a game that doesn't provide too much variety, different branches of it would still look quite similar. That means, there hardly can be anything for a playaround type of movie.
When the first TAS for Cross Fire was made, it was decently received. But this any% submission not only is a Vault material, but it also shows that the "pacifist" version can't provide any unique content over it, only a bit more jumping. People in the discussion thread mostly agree that this game just can't supply with many branches.
So here I seem to introduce a precedent, when a movie with trade-offs hosted in Moons gets obsoleted by a Vault movie containing a pure time record. If I don't do it now, the next Cross Fire "pacifist" submission will be optimized tougher and look just as this one, so if we keep hosting 2 different branches, we would bump a dilemma: rejecting the new "pacifist" submission for being a bit less entertaining, or accepting it as a time improvement. Rejecting the more optimized movie isn't very productive, especially for a tier borderline material, and hosting 2 different goal movies that look just identical except for a few jumps isn't wise either.
Once again, if unsure the game is interesting enough, don't make unvaultable movies. I'm accepting this submission to Vault and it must obsolete the existing "pacifist" version.
First to vote in, well, me too I optimised weapons taking in first level, but don't forgive it"s a pacifist run so you should not kill enemies......... It'll be a Meh for me.
Current:
Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD
Paused:
N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair)
GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven)
TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand
First to vote in, well, me too I optimised weapons taking in first level, but don't forgive it"s a pacifist run so you should not kill enemies......... It'll be a Meh for me.
Did you read the submission text? I thought it's clear that my run is not pacifist and I even wrote the comparison that this movie would be even faster if it would be translated (I'm pretty sure most of the parts could be copy pasted) to make it pacifist (would lose more than 1 second) what would make it much slower time because of too many objects/enemies which makes more lags.
Also I had a lot of trouble about getting the best routes because the character's height is taller than 2 "tiles" so enemies would hit my head. Not talking about super laggy enemies and tanks and other idiot enemies that isn't possible to remove/manipulate away.
Also I tried to play with death as many times as possible without sacrificing time.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
I liked the part where this shitty game got a moon. Seriously?
Voting yes for publication, no for moon.
I have no idea why this game is considered to be moon worthy.
Also I don't think the game should be "hard" in terms of adapting the pacifist branch. I would be interested in how does "accepting pacifist runs" are judged generally, mostly because the maximum enemies on screen is something like 5 or 6 (if I count the super mini enemies that's very easy to avoid). But I'm not a judge.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
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People should try reading decisions if they don't understand right away why they were made. Also, now this game looks boring as hell, heavy same-glitch abuse can't help it to me, just makes it more repetitive. No vote.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Now this run raises a weird question.
The pacifist version wasn't strongly disliked only because the any% one didn't exist to compare to. Now it is here and will be accepted as a speed record to Vault. Then fun starts: MESHUGGAH submits an improvement over pacifist, and it will look as boring as this movie. Reject? But it's a fair improvement! Accept/obsolete? But it's really too similar to the existing any%!
My proposal: Obsolete branches that look too similar to each other. But any% has the greatest priority. So, any% can obsolete side branch if they look too similar. What do you think?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Now this run raises a weird question.
The pacifist version wasn't strongly disliked only because the any% one didn't exist to compare to. Now it is here and will be accepted as a speed record to Vault. Then fun starts: MESHUGGAH submits an improvement over pacifist, and it will look as boring as this movie. Reject? But it's a fair improvement! Accept/obsolete? But it's really too similar to the existing any%!
My proposal: Obsolete branches that look too similar to each other. But any% has the greatest priority. So, any% can obsolete side branch if they look too similar. What do you think?
I'll think it can get to any% only no pacifist or no damage, they should be a branch for those 2
Current:
Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD
Paused:
N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair)
GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven)
TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
Feos brings up some interesting points. Most importantly, we have the question of whether this game should have two branches. I don't have a simple opinion on this...
TECHNICAL MERIT:
First of all, this is definitely a faster movie. There is noticeably less lag as well. MESHUGGAH, good job with the optimization!
ENTERTAINMENT:
However, this movie is less entertaining. Because this movie zips more, the movement is much more repetitive. Also, as a result, lots of shots are missed (even if the author tried to minimize the number of wasted shots).
Also, the previous movie looks like it tries to play the game fairly faithfully, mostly saving wallclips for the ends of the stages. In other words, it nearly resembles real-time play except for the one glitch. This movie no longer looks anything like a real-time playthrough.
As a result, I have to vote No on this. However, I don't fault MESHUGGAH for having a less entertaining movie. If I were going for the any% record, I would probably make the same choices.
OBSOLETION AND TIERS:
People are questioning why the currently published pacifist run has a Moon tier. I don't really have a problem with that, but I think it's largely irrelevant for the judging of this movie.
The main question is: should we have two branches for this game? I think not. A pacifist run is not particularly different from an any% run and doesn't really offer substantial excitement. I mean, these two runs are only four seconds apart. I'd say this game should only get an any% run... it's not an entertaining-enough game to deserve movie variety.
However, another issue to consider is: if this obsoletes the current run, can a run in the Vault obsolete a run with a Moon tier? I think it should. It just happens in this case that the faster any% run is more boring; that's the price you pay sometimes for faster runs. If people really want miss the old run, they can always look at the obsoleted movie.
SUMMARY:
I vote No on entertainment. However, this is well-made. I recommend the current Moon-tier movie be obsoleted by this Vault-tier improvement.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically.
Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.)
Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html)
Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature!
Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
I also agree with others that while the technical optimization is very good in finishing this game as fast as possible, the entertainment is lacking. While the main glitch is interesting at first, it does get repetitive and actually detracts from it in terms of movement and gameplay variety. It also doesn't help that the game overall is on the bland side.
Voting for vault publication. I don't think this one should obsolete the currently published Moon-tier run as that one is a true pacifist run unlike this one and is currently the more enjoyable of the two.
I rewatched the current run and this, and there's really nothing different enough from the pacifist run to justify having two imo. The only difference is the pacifist run has more jumping around, without any real strategy changes.
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
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The thing is, currently these 2 runs ARE still different. They won't be when MESHUGGAH makes his own version of pacifist. His pacifist version will look almost exactly like this submission, so by entertainment, the existing pacifist will still be better. But it will be proven sloppy! So I'm trying to find a way to obsolete it right now, because I can't see anything sane to do if what I describe happens.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I love how my TASes becomes precedents.
Let me share my opinion again so forum users can read it too:
- accept this movie for vault
- obsolete N?K's pacifist run (detail the judgement with the missing comparable any% movie and the optimization level)
- don't accept pacifist branch for this game again (doesn't serves enough entertainment, distinction (if I would recreate the pacifist with this movie) and challange to make it pacifist)
And the publishing text should contain "This movie abuses a glitch that skips the moon tier and directly goes to the vault." Ok I'm just kidding, but anything above is the deal.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
I watched this, I thought it have something new for me can learn, but it don't have. All differents here must kill enemies then can do it, the things/ways I knew before but I didn't it because I want make a pacifish run. All you here knew, a pacifist never can faster with a any% run.
Ok, I'm agree here's faster my run. I'm a newbie in frames war, can't make best in each frame. I need learn more than. I just feel sad if my run will become to obsolete by this, it's not fair play, better if my run get beat by other pacifist run. Ok, I vote Meh
I actually know the former case where Vault obsoletes Moon. Current glitched Chrono Trigger speedrun beats both Star and Moon tiered speedrun, while it ended up being in Vault. It was when tier system didn't take place, though.
I actually know the former case where Vault obsoletes Moon. Current glitched Chrono Trigger speedrun beats both Star and Moon tiered speedrun, while it ended up being in Vault. It was when tier system didn't take place, though.
This is an obsoletion that I never liked myself because while it was technically faster it obsoleted an extremely entertaining glitchfest (compare the 5.0 rating to the 8 of the previous TAS)
Joined: 4/17/2010
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xxNKxx wrote:
I watched this, I thought it have something new for me can learn, but it don't have. All differents here must kill enemies then can do it, the things/ways I knew before but I didn't it because I want make a pacifish run. All you here knew, a pacifist never can faster with a any% run.
Ok, I'm agree here's faster my run. I'm a newbie in frames war, can't make best in each frame. I need learn more than. I just feel sad if my run will become to obsolete by this, it's not fair play, better if my run get beat by other pacifist run. Ok, I vote Meh
Fair play is hosting high quality movies in terms of both optimization and entertainment. We can never allow accepting all possible branches for all possible games. Some branches will always be too similar to each other. I'm trying to prevent having several branches that are hardly different to the audience. It is always repeated that only really entertaining movies will have strong chances in Moons. Borderline cases must be discussed with the audience, and that's what I'm doing right now.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I watched this, I thought it have something new for me can learn, but it don't have. All differents here must kill enemies then can do it, the things/ways I knew before but I didn't it because I want make a pacifish run. All you here knew, a pacifist never can faster with a any% run.
Ok, I'm agree here's faster my run. I'm a newbie in frames war, can't make best in each frame. I need learn more than. I just feel sad if my run will become to obsolete by this, it's not fair play, better if my run get beat by other pacifist run. Ok, I vote Meh
Please read my comparison text and my posts in this thread. I've also detailed which parts would be copy pasted (that means it would be faster than your movie).
The reason I say this game shouldn't have a pacifist version is the small amount of enemies (and projectiles) that really too easy to avoid, just like I avoided a few in this run.
The way I optimized is I checked the memory for the "Foreground Camera X" position (0x0068) and the "Player position" (0x0357) and checked whenever I couldn't go forward because of invisible lag frame, I just made a 1 frame delay (of course I always had to recheck different routes and compare their time).
Here's a lua script that based on feos' lua script "template":
fgcamxlast = memory.readbyte(0x68)
xlast = memory.readbyte(0x357)
function info()
fgcamx = memory.readbyte(0x68)
x = memory.readbyte(0x357)
gui.text(10,10, string.format("FG Cam X: (%2d) %2d", fgcamxlast, fgcamx))
gui.text(10,20, string.format("X: (%2d) %2d", x, xlast))
if (fgcamx == fgcamxlast) then gui.text (130,10,"!!!!"); end
if (x <= xlast) then gui.text (130,20,"!!!!"); end
fgcamxlast = fgcamx
xlast = x
end
emu.registerafter(info);
All it does that shows the "!!!!" string whenever the camera (or the player) isn't increases. Now you learned something.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
This movie has been published.
The posts before this message apply to the submission, and posts after this message apply to the published movie.
----
[2409] NES Cross Fire by MESHUGGAH in 05:52.50
While I agree with the decision, I don't like the wording, which sounds too prohibitive and far-reaching.
feos wrote:
Once again, if unsure the game is interesting enough, don't make unvaultable movies.
You never know. The game may be boring by itself, but its TAS may become very successful, e.g: Brain Age. So the conclusion "simply don't make" is very subjective. It should not be presented like a general policy. No. People should keep making and submitting unvaultable movies, then judges will handle them case-by-case, and then TAS authors will make their own conclusions, whether to continue experimenting or surrender.
Even for such a bland game as Cross Fire it's actually good that both "pacifist" and "any%" movies exist somewhere.
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Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I was trying to help preventing disappointment when a movie that was already done gets erased from the main base. And it's not 100% random and unpredictable. By watching the existing fighting games playarounds one can get an idea of what should it look like to be well received. The same goes to any side branch. Watch movies of the same branch for other games. Watch the ones that were rejected for that.
People need to feel that borderline before starting serious projects that can be rejected because of being borderline.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
By watching the existing fighting games playarounds one can get an idea of what should it look like to be well received.
I understand that it's natural instinct of a judge to try to lighten the judging work by streamlining everything into basic templates, but you should understand that you're encouraging to make clones of existing concepts. People already make enough of these, so no need to suggest it in an official manner.
feos wrote:
People need to feel that borderline before starting serious projects that can be rejected because of being borderline.
No feeling can ensure that a submission won't be rejected. So it's not a big deal that xxNKxx's movie was obsoleted. But if he now reads your judging decision and concludes that he should e.g. remove all possible entertainment tradeoffs from his Battle City TAS (because the game isn't well known), then it will be a problem.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Simplifying judging was never my goal. Making guidelines fair to users was. You can clarify them the way you like.
Yes, maybe I discouraged to be risky and bold, but not all games help with it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
