Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
This is friggin awesome. I see you also skipped a couple of rooms that I did I my test. With this new route, the any% will be considerably improved. I suppose it would go something like this.
1.start (play with suited samus, since suitless samus is ugly)
2.morphball
3.door jump into kraid's hideout
4.door jump at the bottom of the main vertical shaft
5.door jump at the next vertical shaft
6.bug pushes samus into kraid's room
7.kill kraid, gain 75 missiles
8.use the reset sequence
9.walk all the way to the ice beam
10.test to see if a restart sequence is faster after collecting the ice beam
11.use new ice beam technique in the statue room
12.finish up tourian.
I just did some preliminary timing. Unless your test run can be improved by a minute or so, this route will be slower than the current any% route.
Is it just me, or does Kraid die faster when you don't have the ice beam?
Edit: My test run totally sucks, so it's not good to measure from. I'll try improving it.
Edit 2: Here's well over a minute shaved off the test movie, and it still isn't as fast as it can be done. Good enough?
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/4976/Kraid_Test_2.fcm
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
damn nice! 1 minute and 15 seconds, and you say it can be improved even more. That is clearly faster than collecting the brinstar missile pack.
Does anyone know where the fceu with the macro function is located? I might try my hand at beating the current any% run, but pressing down & up will be tedious when done perfectly. A macro would help immensely.
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
thanks :)
I am hoping I can get this done over the weekend. The macro function is helpful, but only to a certain degree. There are 1 frame lags that occur every once in a while, which throw off the entire climbing process. This means that I will be doing most of the door jumping manually. This is very time consuming, especially considering that fact that there are now 4 door jumps in this route. With 2 of the door jumps being absolutely huge, it will be a pain.
For reference, jumping through a wall is Down, Up, then wait 7 frames.
Jumping to scroll the screen from within a wall is Down, wait 16 frames, Up, wait 10 frames. This is one way the test movie could be improved, I was waiting 17 frames instead of 16, and found out too late.
Another way the movie could be improved is the fact that I visibly skipped a few beats when climbing the wall.
Personally, if I were doing this run, I'd be most worried about manipulation of enemies and lag. I could even do the "tedious" wall jumping parts for you if you want. :P
In fact, I could try to perfect this trick as much as possible, and you could just paste it into your run when you get there. I'll pause before Kraid a little bit so you can manipulate him as needed.
Also, maybe you could ask moozooh for his permission to use this:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/get/1376/Metroid.fcm
Edit: Nevermind, I forgot that you go straight to Kraid. :P
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
CtrlAltDestroy wrote:
For reference, jumping through a wall is Down, Up, then wait 7 frames.
Actually, 6 frames works too. That is where the problem comes into play. Sometimes it is 6 frames and sometimes it is 7 frames. It is completely random. It is for that reason, that the macro function will not work.
Thanks for the tips on how to scroll the screen though, no doubt that will come in handy.
CtrlAltDestroy wrote:
If you had the macro do a six frame pause, you could still use it. Whenever the macro doesn't work twice in a row, just frame advance once between macros.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
hmm Indeed, that will work. My plan was to make 2 different macros. A 6 frame delay and a 7 frame delay, then switch when applicable. Your idea makes much more sense though.
How does this glitch off screen, then move into the wall trick work, and the one where you glitched off screen then moved into the wall on the other side. I might be able to find more uses for this, this is huge.
I think you could go even faster if you do the ball to up+jump when your trying to move up fast and it won’t scroll the screen up. This makes you move up two units instead of one. Also you might want to try just jumping sometimes to scroll the screen down instead of traveling through the screen so many times.
Also, if you scroll the screen down enough, then go through the door above, while off the screen it will scroll down to the room below and take you into through that door. Actually, now that I think about there’s a good chance you could go into kraid’s room this way.
There might even be some tricks you can do while your off the screen and it’s not scrolling down; like to get to a point where you can start moving it down faster.
Getting the missiles in Brinstar takes about 61 seconds, which is completely skipped. Old Kraid route from elevator to Kraid death is about 58 seconds. So the new Kraid route is almost even faster than the old one. Up+A after icebeam is faster. So this is about 45 seconds saved.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
I am up to kraid himself now. Does anyone know if it is possible to start attacking kraid immediately, or do you have to jump over his projectile spike first? The published run had the ice beam at this point, so Samus just froze the spike. I don't have the ice beam, so this isn't an option.
How does this glitch off screen, then move into the wall trick work, and the one where you glitched off screen then moved into the wall on the other side. I might be able to find more uses for this, this is huge.
When you glitch off the top of the screen, you go into a "void" that resembles the current screen, but Samus is invisible, and you come back on the bottom of this screen as soon as you reach the top of the void. That's my theory, anyway.
The room below is a loop-around room, so there are no walls or hatches to get into the way. While in the void, you can move a few pixels left so that you bypass the door trigger that normally catches you and transitions you to the next room. Since you're too far into the door, the door sequence will move Samus too far to the left and cause her to wrap around to the other side of the screen... taking you to the wrong room.
This trick is very conditional, since you need a loop-around room below the screen in order to use it. The loop-around rooms are usually caused by horizontal hallway rooms being loaded along with the vertical column rooms. You can use some Game Genie codes to check where these exist. I do not know if it's possible to do this trick when you're above the room instead of below it, since the screen scrolls differently that way.
As for the "jumping back into the wall", I think this might have something to do with Samus leaving the void and getting dropped into the bottom of the current page, which is inside the wall. It might also be caused by getting crushed by the currently loaded collision detection and the bottom of existence.
Note that the above is all speculation and theory.
I think you could go even faster if you do the ball to up+jump when your trying to move up fast and it won’t scroll the screen up. This makes you move up two units instead of one.
I think this is slower than just straight wall jumping. The cooldown time for Samus' jump is too slow. I could be wrong, though, so it should be tested.
Also you might want to try just jumping sometimes to scroll the screen down instead of traveling through the screen so many times.
This is also slower, I think. I thought the fastest way to scroll the screen from within the wall is to morph, fall for a few pixels, then unmorph again. I demonstrated this in the test movie.
Actually, it should be tested further.
Also, if you scroll the screen down enough, then go through the door above, while off the screen it will scroll down to the room below and take you into through that door. Actually, now that I think about there’s a good chance you could go into kraid’s room this way.
It's worth a shot for sure. HOTD's earlier test run did this, but unfortunately, Samus was stuck in the room above and couldn't fight Kraid.
What about the thing were you glitch up one wall then come up on the wall on the other side? Do you just move left 2 blocks so you wrap around to the right?
I think you might be right that the morph, fall for a few pixels, then unmorph again is the fastest way to scroll down, but it would be easy to test normal jumping too.
For the morph, then up+jump move while in a wall, I don't think there is much of a cool down and it moves you up two units instead of one. Also you might be able to do a big jump while in the void so that you can get to the bottom of the screen faster.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
What about the thing were you glitch up one wall then come up on the wall on the other side? Do you just move left 2 blocks so you wrap around to the right?
Yeah, because the area below you is wrap-around so you can just walk off the end of the screen and reappear on the other side.
For the morph, then up+jump move while in a wall, I don't think there is much of a cool down and it moves you up two units instead of one.
With normal wall jumping, it takes 8-9 frames before you can control Samus again (1 frame to morph, 1 frame to unmorph, and 6/7 frames to wait). I tested the morph jump, and it took 21 frames before I was able to control Samus again, which is more than double the time to perform the smaller jump, so it's slower.
Also you might be able to do a big jump while in the void so that you can get to the bottom of the screen faster.
While in the void, you can fall out of the wall and scroll the screen down a little bit. Problem is, I don't have the slightest idea where the collision detection in the void comes from. It doesn't resemble anything on the current screen, or even on nearby screens. It seems to make no sense whatsoever. And it's impossible to escape the void again unless you have a wall to glitch up or unless you scroll all the way to the top of the column and manage to somehow jump back up onto the screen. You can't shoot doors or travel to different rooms in the void.
With normal wall jumping, it takes 8-9 frames before you can control Samus again (1 frame to morph, 1 frame to unmorph, and 6/7 frames to wait). I tested the morph jump, and it took 21 frames before I was able to control Samus again, which is more than double the time to perform the smaller jump, so it's slower.
When you say gain control I think you mean land on ground. So I think this up+jump trick would be faster for the last two units, because you should still be able to move left right away. I hope that works.
*EDIT* never mind, this doens't work, if you jump or do a full morph while IN or bordering the door it does think thing where it takes you through the door to the left and puts you two screen to the left off the screen.
I'm pretty sure after about 10 down+ups off the screen you are doing collision detection with the room below. This is why you can move further into the wall on the first door, the area below is open on both ends. If you try this on the next door you can't move to the left into wall further, I think this is because the room below has a door and wall all along it's left edge.
What's interesting is figuring out what the game considers is the room below the room right before Kraid at the very bottom. I've found I can move 1 and only 1 unit (block = 2x2 units, samus = 1x4 units, door hatch = 1X6 units) into right wall, but for some reason this isn't enough to do WWDG on this door and it just takes you through the door normally.
If you do 15 down+ups after you go off the top of the screen you are considered in the door below. You can move out of the door and shoot it open then go through and it will scroll the screen all the way down to the door becuase you are actually going through it. I think it's probably slower though because you have to scroll the screen left and then right and then open the door and wait for it to close. I was thinking you might be able to do this to get into Kraid's room because I thought it considered you in the same door you started in, but it is the one below, and that door is red so it can't be shot open.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Well I think you should have all main stuff under controll for this. I can't really think of anything to make the Kraid route go faster. The only way I think of to attack Kraid through the spike would be to run up completely against the spike while it's in him and fire, you might even have to hold left, I that's what was done with the icebeam. Can you see the button presses on the replay to check?
Otherwise I think the fastest way to attack Kraid would be to get hit by him or the spike or the bananas at the right time before the middle spike comes. Then be temperory invincible right when the middle spike leaves and start attacking. Hopefully you can make the invicibility last long enough to protect against the bottom spike, or move over it without delaying the attacking.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Otherwise I think the fastest way to attack Kraid would be to get hit by him or the spike or the bananas at the right time before the middle spike comes. Then be temperory invincible right when the middle spike leaves and start attacking. Hopefully you can make the invicibility last long enough to protect against the bottom spike, or move over it without delaying the attacking.
Unfortunately, in order to do this you would need to manipulate a lot of health drops before getting to Kraid. The bug which pushes you through the red door takes off 20 life, so if you only have 30 health to begin with, a single hit from any of Kraid's weapons will kill you.
There is a faster way to glitch down into the kraid elevator area. You don't have to come all the way onto the bottom of the screen. Once your really close to the bottom but note quite visible yet it treats you as if your in the area your seeing but just below it. So you can fall right out of the wall early, below that little platform you normally have to move above. You won't quite be visible but you can still move to the door at the bottom and once you go through it the view gets centered.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
CtrlAltDestroy already mentioned that to me. Not only is it too late for me to implement it, I am quite sure it is slower. If you do not exit the wall above the platform, the screen is not scrolled down. Since the screen is higher than normal, when you enter the blue door a very long, automatic process will scroll the screen up.
