(Link to video)
Submission Text Full Submission Page Publication Page
Duck Tales 2 any%, improves the published movie by 00:02.40 seconds.
  • Takes damage to save time
  • Heavy luck manipulation
  • Dementia demonstration

feos' comments

Oh, look at the date. 7.7.2013. This is my 7th submission.
All relevant info can be found on that resource page I recently created. As in, lua script, new tricks, RAM addresses, animated gifs.
Also, this is yet another game I enjoyed in my childhood, and I found the secret level myself. Now for years I was reading mklip2001's posts and seeing his signature reminding me about my favorite game. When I found out real time speedrunners compete at this game in "best ending", after seeing dxtr's world record [dead link to dxtr twitch account removed], I was inspired to actually pick this project. But to make sure all is good, I wanted to beat the existing "any%" movie, and just reuse the tricks in "best ending" then.
At first I only tried to shave lag frames, and was 4 frames ahead at the first boss. This way, up to level 4 I accumulated about 22 frames of improvement just by removing random lag. Then I asked MESHUGGAH in, and this started. We found out that some places were just not optimized enough, and some new tricks.
Boss 5 has an 8-frame rule, he becomes available only every 8th frame. MESHUGGAH saved 3 more frames at levels 1-2, but boss 5 ruined this improvement.
PS: I feel cool beating this game faster than adelikat & Brushy (2 iterations), Genisto, and Exim.
PPS: This movie kind of proves total domination of TASEditor over old-style methods. Ask MESHUGGAH!

Special thanks

  • AnS - everyone knows why
  • adelikat - for cool finds in the past
  • MESHUGGAH - for being a true frame geek
  • Mzscla (J.Y) 名字帅才恋爱 - for amazing movie that never was submitted here. Many tricks were learned from it.
  • mtvf1 - for bringing that movie up.

MESHUGGAH's comments

Working with feos on this TAS was awesome. Using his tools we destroyed the game in 4 days.
TL;DR: feos and MESHUGGAH used TASEditor! It's super effective!
There's nothing else I could say. feos is the man. See you until my next TAS =)

Suggested screenshot

https://vadosnaprimer.github.io/dropbox/DuckTales2U-1_zps0b42470d.PNG
Noxxa: Judging.
Noxxa: Setting to delayed while the authors are working on improvements.
Noxxa: Replacing submission with a 76-frame improvement and accepting to Moons as an improvement to the published movie.
Ilari: Dumped this, Noxxa is doing the HD...

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Posted: 7/6/2013 9:13 PM
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TASVideoAgent
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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #4003: feos & MESHUGGAH's NES DuckTales 2 in 08:41.29
Posted: 7/7/2013 2:26 AM
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mklip2001
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2224
Location: Georgia, USA
Glad to see I inspired a movie! I'm sorry I didn't really pick this up at all (and it turned out a strategy idea I had for the best ending run was sort of rubbish...) I took a look through the resources page. It has good stuff, though it should also get updated to have some of the old tricks, like jumping off spikes and canceling scrolling into boss rooms. Anyway, great job with lag reduction! I couldn't believe how little the game lagged now. Yes vote, and I hope to hear more about best ending!
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Posted: 7/7/2013 3:00 PM
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Spikestuff
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Flash TASer of 2022 PSX TASer of 2016
Suggested screenshot = Thumbnail. Anyways easy Yes.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Posted: 7/7/2013 3:23 PM
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NitroGenesis
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Joined: 12/24/2009
Posts: 1873
PS: I feel cool beating this game faster than adelikat & Brushy (2 iterations), Genisto, and Exim.
Pride movie, voted no. Just kidding. Having TASed a bit of this game before when I was looking for an NES game to improve I must say I'm not so surprised the improvement is only a few seconds. But an improvements an improvement, so you get a yes vote here.
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
Posted: 7/8/2013 12:07 AM
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mtvf1
Skilled player (1150)
Joined: 5/11/2011
Posts: 425
Location: China
GBA TASer of 2013
This submission is 4 frames faster than Mzscla(J.Y)名字帅才恋爱's. So I vote yes. but after compared these, I think it's possible to be saved more than 30 frames. feos & MESHUGGAH, are you willing to go on doing frames war? Sorry to post it a littel too late. Edited by a moderator: That link contained direct ROM download, so I had to remove it. But here is the googletranslated content of that post: http://pastebin.com/Uf6RB1FX And this post has the reuploaded movie from that page: Post #350636 Encode: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQ0NDcwNzU2.html
Posted: 7/8/2013 6:49 AM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
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NES TAS of 2011
Sure, but I can't download the file from there.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 7/8/2013 6:51 AM
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Patashu
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Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4016
feos wrote:
Sure, but I can't download the file from there.
It doesn't seem like the TASer made the input file available for download anywhere in that topic.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Posted: 7/8/2013 7:05 AM
(Edited: 6/15/2022 1:22 AM)
Quote
feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
Encode file isn't accessible either. Well, I applied the collision glitch to the bird in level 2, which I needed on my first iteration, but completely forgot about that place when the glitch was found. It saves 10 freaking frames! However, I want to keep this improvement on hold until something else is found. User movie #7778820508599804
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 7/8/2013 11:07 AM
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mtvf1
Skilled player (1150)
Joined: 5/11/2011
Posts: 425
Location: China
GBA TASer of 2013
feos wrote:
Sure, but I can't download the file from there.
Really? Click 录像附件：（点击下载）, or you can try to find a chinese proxy.
Posted: 7/8/2013 11:35 AM
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fsvgm777
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Of note that TasVG hosts illegal downloads of ROM files, and thus violates this site's rules. That said, I could download the movie file from there just fine. Should I upload it?
Steam Community page - Cohost profile Oh, I'm just a concerned observer.
Posted: 7/8/2013 11:41 AM
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Patashu
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Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4016
fsvgm777 wrote:
Of note that TasVG hosts illegal downloads of ROM files, and thus violates this site's rules. That said, I could download the movie file from there just fine. Should I upload it?
Yes please :)
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Posted: 7/8/2013 11:44 AM
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fsvgm777
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Here it is: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/64600169/jy-dt2.7z
Steam Community page - Cohost profile Oh, I'm just a concerned observer.
Posted: 7/8/2013 4:13 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
In level 1 this guy saves only 1 frame over us, and it was unintuitive (just to climb on a rope for longer time and see if it makes any difference). He enters Boss 1 24 frames slower. But due to a better pattern, the boss is lower when he dies, and the item appears faster. Overall, level 1 is still 6 frames slower than ours. I trusted adelkat on boss 1 behavior and didn't check it, I guess here I have to look into it. If it is only timer dependent, then there is nothing we can do except for that 1 frame on ropes. To be continued... EDIT: I marked all spots where we can save time learning from that movie and sent it to MESHUGGAH. I suggested that we separately try to improve and then compare. Until it is done, the submission must be delayed.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 7/9/2013 4:58 AM
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DarkKobold
Skilled player (1637)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
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Arcade TASer of 2010 PCE TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2009 Lucky TAS of 2007
PPS: This movie kind of proves total domination of TASEditor over old-style methods. Ask MESHUGGAH!
Consider this question asked!
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Posted: 7/9/2013 12:11 PM
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AnS
Emulator Coder, Experienced player (723)
Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682
feos wrote:
In level 1 this guy saves only 1 frame over us, and it was unintuitive (just to climb on a rope for longer time and see if it makes any difference).
It actually makes sense, since the speed of autoscrolling is different from the speed of climbing, so you have to find an optimum of those two functions intersecting with each other. You shouldn't just assume that climbing as fast as possible is the best strategy.
feos wrote:
He enters Boss 1 24 frames slower. But due to a better pattern, the boss is lower when he dies, and the item appears faster.
Oh, I knew those long delays after bosses looked suspictious! But I thought you've tested boss battles thoroughly.
DarkKobold wrote:
PPS: This movie kind of proves total domination of TASEditor over old-style methods. Ask MESHUGGAH!
Consider this question asked!
Yeah, this movie doesn't prove anything. Only statistics may do such thing. Sure, with enough determination you can achieve similar result using traditional method. In fact, you can also achieve it using slowdown instead of Frame Advance. The main point of TAS Editor is that people don't get tired as fast as they normally get when doing rerecords. So it's expected that they will have more time to do more tests. And the quality of TASing directly depends on the number of tests. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to work well, because with more comfort people only become more lazy. We lower our own limit of patience accordingly with the new (lowered) level of difficulties. That's why I'm not even sure if there's any point in further development.
Posted: 7/9/2013 4:15 PM
Quote
feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
DarkKobold wrote:
PPS: This movie kind of proves total domination of TASEditor over old-style methods. Ask MESHUGGAH!
Consider this question asked!
AnS wrote:
Yeah, this movie doesn't prove anything. Only statistics may do such thing.
Lag count of our movie: 614 Lag count from that guy: 699 Lag count of adelikat's run: 740 Precision is better catered for in TASeditor, though it doesn't automatically make your movies perfect. But it does the best job assisting it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 7/9/2013 5:45 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
On boss 3 that guy loses a whole bunch of frames by not hitting him as fast as possible, because he spawned to the left. So when the last hit was done, the boss was lower and the box appeared fast. But in our movie delaying boss death only loses time, because he isn't too high either already, and was hit at the first possible frame. Boss 2 falls from the lowest pos already. Boss 4 doesn't jump. Boss 1 is random, but must be easy to manipulate by killing item dropping enemies at different frames. This way in that submission I forced boss 3 to spawn in the middle, and boss 4 to drop the stones 10 sooner than in WIPs. Post #350698
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 7/10/2013 9:01 PM
(Edited: 6/15/2022 1:23 AM)
Quote
feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
Improved 14 frames up to the start of the 4th floor of level 2. User movie #7835924255932263 MESHUGGAH?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 7/11/2013 4:29 AM
Quote
Pasky13
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Joined: 5/4/2005
Posts: 502
Location: Onett, Eagleland
Enjoyed the run, yes vote.
I think.....therefore I am not Barry Burton
Posted: 7/11/2013 9:38 AM
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MESHUGGAH
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NES TASer of 2013 NES TAS of 2013 NES TAS of 2012 NES TAS of 2011
DarkKobold wrote:
"PPS: This movie kind of proves total domination of TASEditor over old-style methods. Ask MESHUGGAH!" - Consider this question asked!
I aggree with AnS that using TASEditor people could become lazy or forget to test different things (and I would say the latter happened to us), but this doesn't reflects TASEditor itself but TASers. In my "hard" projects like Battletoads and Kirby's Adventures, viewing the state of multiple frames (lag frames, memory observation, "future" check) helps a lot to optimize both little parts and they overall impact on the movie (I'm mostly referring to checking multiple routes much more comfortable and the ability to easily fix the input throughout the whole project). You can do the same with traditional tasing... by wasting a lot of time and I even do it with TASEditor.
AnS wrote:
And the quality of TASing directly depends on the number of tests.
You mean the optimization level directly depends on the number of tests which can be improved (the optimization level, not the number of tests) by making additional tools (lua scripts) that helps you what type of tests should be done.
AnS wrote:
Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to work well, because with more comfort people only become more lazy. We lower our own limit of patience accordingly with the new (lowered) level of difficulties. That's why I'm not even sure if there's any point in further development.
Tools are invented to help a man to reach his goal either faster or more comfortable. This doesn't means that anyone who uses such a tool will become more lazy. I could say many examples from real life that absolutely doesn't changed people at all. Back on topic, I did checked different RNGs for Boss 1, but everytime I got the very same pattern (with different values of course). Now it looks like it has 3 specific conditions it requires to be met. Just to make a pure comparison to the TAS made without TASEditor, it used a much faster Boss 1 fight and it's 13 frames slower than our TAS with that specific Boss 1 fight (and I think it's now even more faster). I can't count how many hours I spent on rerolling the RNG to good values. Now try to do the same without TASEditor. (Warning: Attempting it can harm your health). feos: I was kidnapped to the beach. Checking your movie.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Posted: 7/11/2013 5:45 PM
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supersonicjc
Joined: 5/27/2012
Posts: 70
Location: Wisconsin
nice run yes vote from me I know that there is a secret level (or bonus area) that would be nice to see done altho doesn't the way to get there require you to go out of your way on some spots ??? I don't remember anymore
Posted: 7/12/2013 1:34 AM
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WST
She/Her
Active player (442)
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Posts: 1690
Location: RU · ID · AM
This looks really well done, so I vote Yes
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Posted: 7/12/2013 1:56 PM
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AndiHoffi
Player (161)
Joined: 1/1/2013
Posts: 43
AnS wrote:
Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to work well, because with more comfort people only become more lazy. We lower our own limit of patience accordingly with the new (lowered) level of difficulties. That's why I'm not even sure if there's any point in further development.
Basically, you are saying that better tools lead to worse TASes. Or the other way around: Worse tools lead to better TASes. Interesting point. So I guess, you are making all your TASes directly on a console and achieve the perfect results, since a console is the worst instrument for a TAS? I only did one TAS yet, and this one with the TASEditor. I cannot even imagine how much more work it would have been without the TASEditor. And without it, I would probably not have done the TAS at all. Making a TAS this way, did actually just "feel right". IMO, this is a great tool that offers very comfortable ways for both: trying multiple options and optimization.
Posted: 7/12/2013 6:23 PM
Quote
AnS
Emulator Coder, Experienced player (723)
Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682
I was just thinking about the problem of diminishing returns from using(/making) better tools. As in, the tools are supposedly much better (at least "by design"), but the results are only slightly better.
feos wrote:
AnS wrote:
Yeah, this movie doesn't prove anything. Only statistics may do such thing.
Lag count of our movie: 614 Lag count from that guy: 699 Lag count of adelikat's run: 740
No, I mean different statistics, e.g. when the majority of old TASes are obsoleted by TASEditor-made movies, and at the same time little to no TASEditor movies are beaten by traditional method-made movies, then you can talk about "total domination".
Posted: 7/19/2013 7:12 PM
(Edited: 6/15/2022 1:23 AM)
Quote
feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11268
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
Update the submission please. User movie #8033018866490317
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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