This topic is for the purpose of discussing #4003: feos & MESHUGGAH's NES DuckTales 2 in 08:41.29

Glad to see I inspired a movie! I'm sorry I didn't really pick this up at all (and it turned out a strategy idea I had for the best ending run was sort of rubbish...) I took a look through the resources page. It has good stuff, though it should also get updated to have some of the old tricks, like jumping off spikes and canceling scrolling into boss rooms. Anyway, great job with lag reduction! I couldn't believe how little the game lagged now. Yes vote, and I hope to hear more about best ending!

Suggested screenshot = Thumbnail. Anyways easy Yes.

PS: I feel cool beating this game faster than adelikat & Brushy (2 iterations), Genisto, and Exim.

Pride movie, voted no. Just kidding. Having TASed a bit of this game before when I was looking for an NES game to improve I must say I'm not so surprised the improvement is only a few seconds. But an improvements an improvement, so you get a yes vote here.

This submission is 4 frames faster than Mzscla(J.Y)名字帅才恋爱's. So I vote yes. but after compared these, I think it's possible to be saved more than 30 frames. feos & MESHUGGAH, are you willing to go on doing frames war? Sorry to post it a littel too late. Edited by a moderator: That link contained direct ROM download, so I had to remove it. But here is the googletranslated content of that post: http://pastebin.com/Uf6RB1FX And this post has the reuploaded movie from that page: Post #350636 Encode: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQ0NDcwNzU2.html

Sure, but I can't download the file from there.

Sure, but I can't download the file from there.

It doesn't seem like the TASer made the input file available for download anywhere in that topic.

Encode file isn't accessible either. Well, I applied the collision glitch to the bird in level 2, which I needed on my first iteration, but completely forgot about that place when the glitch was found. It saves 10 freaking frames! However, I want to keep this improvement on hold until something else is found. User movie #7778820508599804

Sure, but I can't download the file from there.

Really? Click 录像附件：（点击下载）, or you can try to find a chinese proxy.

Of note that TasVG hosts illegal downloads of ROM files, and thus violates this site's rules. That said, I could download the movie file from there just fine. Should I upload it?

Of note that TasVG hosts illegal downloads of ROM files, and thus violates this site's rules. That said, I could download the movie file from there just fine. Should I upload it?

Yes please :)

Here it is: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/64600169/jy-dt2.7z

In level 1 this guy saves only 1 frame over us, and it was unintuitive (just to climb on a rope for longer time and see if it makes any difference). He enters Boss 1 24 frames slower. But due to a better pattern, the boss is lower when he dies, and the item appears faster. Overall, level 1 is still 6 frames slower than ours. I trusted adelkat on boss 1 behavior and didn't check it, I guess here I have to look into it. If it is only timer dependent, then there is nothing we can do except for that 1 frame on ropes. To be continued... EDIT: I marked all spots where we can save time learning from that movie and sent it to MESHUGGAH. I suggested that we separately try to improve and then compare. Until it is done, the submission must be delayed.

PPS: This movie kind of proves total domination of TASEditor over old-style methods. Ask MESHUGGAH!

Consider this question asked!

In level 1 this guy saves only 1 frame over us, and it was unintuitive (just to climb on a rope for longer time and see if it makes any difference).

It actually makes sense, since the speed of autoscrolling is different from the speed of climbing, so you have to find an optimum of those two functions intersecting with each other. You shouldn't just assume that climbing as fast as possible is the best strategy.

He enters Boss 1 24 frames slower. But due to a better pattern, the boss is lower when he dies, and the item appears faster.

Oh, I knew those long delays after bosses looked suspictious! But I thought you've tested boss battles thoroughly.

PPS: This movie kind of proves total domination of TASEditor over old-style methods. Ask MESHUGGAH!

Consider this question asked!

Yeah, this movie doesn't prove anything. Only statistics may do such thing. Sure, with enough determination you can achieve similar result using traditional method. In fact, you can also achieve it using slowdown instead of Frame Advance. The main point of TAS Editor is that people don't get tired as fast as they normally get when doing rerecords. So it's expected that they will have more time to do more tests. And the quality of TASing directly depends on the number of tests. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to work well, because with more comfort people only become more lazy. We lower our own limit of patience accordingly with the new (lowered) level of difficulties. That's why I'm not even sure if there's any point in further development.

PPS: This movie kind of proves total domination of TASEditor over old-style methods. Ask MESHUGGAH!

Consider this question asked!

Yeah, this movie doesn't prove anything. Only statistics may do such thing.

Lag count of our movie: 614 Lag count from that guy: 699 Lag count of adelikat's run: 740 Precision is better catered for in TASeditor, though it doesn't automatically make your movies perfect. But it does the best job assisting it.

On boss 3 that guy loses a whole bunch of frames by not hitting him as fast as possible, because he spawned to the left. So when the last hit was done, the boss was lower and the box appeared fast. But in our movie delaying boss death only loses time, because he isn't too high either already, and was hit at the first possible frame. Boss 2 falls from the lowest pos already. Boss 4 doesn't jump. Boss 1 is random, but must be easy to manipulate by killing item dropping enemies at different frames. This way in that submission I forced boss 3 to spawn in the middle, and boss 4 to drop the stones 10 sooner than in WIPs. Post #350698

Improved 14 frames up to the start of the 4th floor of level 2. User movie #7835924255932263 MESHUGGAH?

Enjoyed the run, yes vote.

"PPS: This movie kind of proves total domination of TASEditor over old-style methods. Ask MESHUGGAH!" - Consider this question asked!

I aggree with AnS that using TASEditor people could become lazy or forget to test different things (and I would say the latter happened to us), but this doesn't reflects TASEditor itself but TASers. In my "hard" projects like Battletoads and Kirby's Adventures, viewing the state of multiple frames (lag frames, memory observation, "future" check) helps a lot to optimize both little parts and they overall impact on the movie (I'm mostly referring to checking multiple routes much more comfortable and the ability to easily fix the input throughout the whole project). You can do the same with traditional tasing... by wasting a lot of time and I even do it with TASEditor.

And the quality of TASing directly depends on the number of tests.

You mean the optimization level directly depends on the number of tests which can be improved (the optimization level, not the number of tests) by making additional tools (lua scripts) that helps you what type of tests should be done.

Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to work well, because with more comfort people only become more lazy. We lower our own limit of patience accordingly with the new (lowered) level of difficulties. That's why I'm not even sure if there's any point in further development.

Tools are invented to help a man to reach his goal either faster or more comfortable. This doesn't means that anyone who uses such a tool will become more lazy. I could say many examples from real life that absolutely doesn't changed people at all. Back on topic, I did checked different RNGs for Boss 1, but everytime I got the very same pattern (with different values of course). Now it looks like it has 3 specific conditions it requires to be met. Just to make a pure comparison to the TAS made without TASEditor, it used a much faster Boss 1 fight and it's 13 frames slower than our TAS with that specific Boss 1 fight (and I think it's now even more faster). I can't count how many hours I spent on rerolling the RNG to good values. Now try to do the same without TASEditor. (Warning: Attempting it can harm your health). feos: I was kidnapped to the beach. Checking your movie.

nice run yes vote from me I know that there is a secret level (or bonus area) that would be nice to see done altho doesn't the way to get there require you to go out of your way on some spots ??? I don't remember anymore

This looks really well done, so I vote Yes

I was just thinking about the problem of diminishing returns from using(/making) better tools. As in, the tools are supposedly much better (at least "by design"), but the results are only slightly better.

Yeah, this movie doesn't prove anything. Only statistics may do such thing.

Lag count of our movie: 614 Lag count from that guy: 699 Lag count of adelikat's run: 740

No, I mean different statistics, e.g. when the majority of old TASes are obsoleted by TASEditor-made movies, and at the same time little to no TASEditor movies are beaten by traditional method-made movies, then you can talk about "total domination".

Update the submission please. User movie #8033018866490317