Topic by TheAxeMan

Posted: 8/10/2005 12:31 PM

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TheAxeMan

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Ok, I've been experimenting with some new methods for a faster run at this game. Timeattacking this has given me a lot more respect for the currently published movie (not to mention this classic game,) but it's definitely improvable. Using some radically new strategies, I've produced a test run which has just beat Astos about 98 seconds ahead of Mookish. If my ideas work out, I'll continue to pull ahead. There are some potential pitfalls, but if all goes well and I'm also able to improve on the encounter manipulation--there's definitely some room there--I should have a pretty good margin by the end.

Posted: 8/10/2005 1:34 PM

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adelikat

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excellent, a new run of this game! can you post a WIP?

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Posted: 8/12/2005 2:11 PM

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TheAxeMan

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http://home.comcast.net/~f_amoroso/FinalFantasy-TheAxeManv0.2.fcm Ok, I won't leave you hanging any longer, here's what I got so far. I'm just past Earth Cave with over five minutes lead on the published version.

Posted: 8/12/2005 2:56 PM

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adelikat

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lol, running through the most of the game with one living character at 5 hp! Looks good, the luck manipulation is much better. What was the point of having the thief and why in 3rd position? Also, do you plan finishing the game with just the one character? It might actually save time in the long run to stay at an inn or use some heal potions. That would allow you to take more hits and potentially not have to delay as much in the fights.

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Posted: 8/12/2005 3:39 PM

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TheAxeMan

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I read somewhere that luck calculation while running is bugged, and it looks at the luck of the character two slots down. I really should experiment more on this to determine what the optimal configuration for running is, though my solo guy is running pretty well. Using one character isn't just for show, it's much faster! A single character can run from battles faster because I don't have to input commands for everyone. It doesn't seem to require any more manipulation than the old run did. Also, with one character, I only need one weapon, which saves time getting and equipping junk. I can also spend my gold on a silver sword when I don't have to blow it on spells for a mage. Think I'm screwed in battle? No way, one character can actually fight more efficiently than four due to a small number of things to randomize. The battles take more turns of combat, but are faster in real time. After the wizards, every boss fight is just one enemy, and most of the inescapable fights can be manipulated down to one or two enemies. Admittedly, some fights will not be practical, like the WzSahag/RedSahags, and more than two wizards would be tough. About the HP, I'll admit there were a few spots where I definitely wished I had some to spare. In particular, I really had to drag out the Lich battle to manipulate the shadows afterwards. I decided that I'd try to go without backtracking to fix the encounters if at all possible. This is mostly so I can get a baseline for a future version. Also, there's no really convenient spot to heal so far. The house in Marsh cave is off the path, the items in Dwarf Cave are too far out of the way, and though I walked right by the inn in Elfland, I didn't have any gold to spare. I probably will break down and heal eventually, since I'll have to walk right by item shops and inns in both Crescent Lake and Gaia. Also, the two-wizard fights are pushing the manipulation to its limit, I don't think I can beat three without taking some damage. In a future run, I'd consider maybe picking up the house in Marsh and using it in the same inventory trip I equip silver sword. But a big point about taking hits: it takes time for the hit animation, so there really aren't many spots where taking a hit will be faster. Another thing is that, shunning armor greatly increases my evade, so enemies completely miss much more often.

Posted: 8/13/2005 2:38 AM

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FreshFeeling

Joined: 8/13/2005
Posts: 356
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Actually, way it works is that the first two character's running ability is based on the "status" byte of the character two postitions lower than themselves. It's not their agility or luck, it's whether they have poison/stun/sleep/stone/dead. My understanding is that if a character has 15+ luck and is in the top two positions, running is 100% unless the encounter is marked unrunnable or the character two positions lower is affected by status (again, poison/stun/sleep/stone/dead). If you're going to use a thief to increase running speed, they should probably be in the second position. The third and fourth position's running chances both point to what the FF-know-it-all people (Paulygon, Alex Jackson, Disch among others) refer to as a "randomly fluctuating value". I guess they probably don't know what it's for.

Posted: 8/13/2005 2:48 AM

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Fro_Jackson

Joined: 8/25/2004
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Didn't the FF gurus at gamefaqs figure out that a thief has no better chance at running than other characters, therefore making his near worthless?

Posted: 8/14/2005 2:21 PM

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FreshFeeling

Joined: 8/13/2005
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I am among those gurus on a regular basis, and although I make mistakes my facts are generally pretty good. Unfortunately I'm new here and might not have a rep for it yet. :P In retrospect, I'm not sure if the necessary value is 15 or not. I'll double check that. Anyhoo, like I said, after a certain point all characters can run perfectly in the first two positions (based on luck). In a low level game (as Mookish's at level 11) luck will only have a few chances to increase, so Thief is somewhat better at running. However, you could probably get fairly good results by manipulating all of your level ups to yield luck points (there is randomness to what classes gain what stats when... it's a slightly complicated to explain concisely, perhaps a matter for another post if there is interest). Fighters start with 5 luck. If you manipulate your levels, they will be perfect runners in the first two positions by level 10 (near endgame for a speedrun). Thieves start with 15 luck. They will be great at running in the top two positions from the get-go. If the game were ending at a normal level like 25, this would matter a lot less. For a low level game, using a thief in the top two positions could be critically important. Early on, they -are- better at running.

Posted: 8/14/2005 5:40 PM

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Fro_Jackson

Joined: 8/25/2004
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Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

Ah, ok. I haven't read anything on the topic of running in at least a year and a half, so thanks for clearing that up.

Posted: 8/14/2005 10:20 PM

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TheAxeMan

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Ah thanks everyone, it sounds logical. So the thief really is worthless after all. Despite his better chances of running, a living thief is probably more harm than help in a TAS, since he's essentially worthless in a non-running battle. I don't think I'll be making it to level 15, and my fighter hasn't been doing great with luck at levelups. Ok, so my next question for the gurus is this: if I have two characters alive vs one, what happens to my chances that one of them will go first in battle, before all the enemies? If the answer is about double, then it may be worth investigating a two-character run. Two fighters could probably fight pretty efficiently, it might be possible to manipulate decent damage from both with a miss from the enemy, and there would be two ally attacks for each enemy. As a bonus, both would have decent chances to run. Definitely iffy though, when I had two characters on the wizards I wasn't able to get things to go exactly my way--I wanted to be able to kill a wizard in one turn and have the other one miss or hit the sacrificial fighter. It could have potentially been a two-turn battle but it just wasn't possible to luck out that far. A fighter-thief combo would run much better, but I don't think it would be enough to earn the thief's keep. One more thing, when are the levelup stats determined? At my last one I noticed that at different frames for end-of-battle I still got the same stats. Conveniently, the fighter gets the all-important strength and agility every level for almost as many as I'll get, but it would be nice to get more luck.

Posted: 8/16/2005 3:32 PM
(Edited: 4/16/2007 8:00 AM)

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FreshFeeling

Joined: 8/13/2005
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I don't know when they occur... could be the start of the battle. As for how turn action order is determined, I believe that every target is still selected (randomly) whether they are dead or not, and simply do nothing if they're dead. I'm not sure about this, but I really don't think a dead party member will affect your chances. I'll try to find out both of these things though. EDIT: Removed huge block of information made redundant by a much earlier post.

Posted: 8/16/2005 10:07 PM

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Inzult

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Back on the 2-member run debate, eh? This run has officially come full circle. After the Lich fight (assuming you're using the same old order for dungeons) you're set with just 1 character for boss battles. Confuse/beatdowns will ensue followed by Bane cheapness. Even if there is a better chance of having one of your characters strike first with 2 members, I imagine imputting 'run' an extra time for all those other battles would slow you down. I think that throwing 3 sacrifices to the Wizards/astos would afford you the flexibility to manipulate luck quickly during those fights. And you could use the Inn for the first time after that while getting the mysic key... which would hold you until Lich. Er. I need to split. I'll watch the wip later. Hooray for getting the internet back.

Posted: 8/17/2005 2:44 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

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Now since the increase in Health Points is based on Vitality, is that the value of Vitality before or after the level-up?

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Posted: 8/17/2005 12:38 PM

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FreshFeeling

Joined: 8/13/2005
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It's vitality before the level-up. HP gain is done before stat gain. Good thing to point out.

Posted: 8/17/2005 12:50 PM

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FreshFeeling

Joined: 8/13/2005
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Oh. Found this on page 4 or so.

Paulygon wrote:

To manipulate the stat gains (and HP gains for strong level-ups only), it's all in the timing with the last command you give in the final battle round. Once you choose that final command, I think your stat gains are set in stone. It's like trying to get a good outcome for a battle round in addition to also trying to roll for the desired stat increases (i.e. that much more that has to go right).

Posted: 8/17/2005 11:18 PM

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TheAxeMan

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Aha, thanks for the info, but I did see the levelup stats for all characters in the almighty character FAQ. If you've seen my run so far you know that max HP is not a big concern, though it looks like I will stop at the inn at crescent lake. (I can't beat the three-wizard fights in ice cave without taking some damage.) On this pass through I will try hard to go through all areas without extra movements to manipulate encounters. I may try to do the Sea Shrine before the waterfall though. Haven't decided whether or not wizard staff will be useful. Kraken should not be a problem as he has a 1/4 chance of essentially doing nothing. In the Sea Shrine though I will have to face up to battles which are probably impossible with a solo, unarmored, low-level fighter. I believe two ghosts should be doable (may require taking a hit) and one water as well, but the WzSahag/R.Sahags and three Waters will not be, so some avoiding may be necessary. Inzult is probably right, I think that one character will run faster overall. Thanks for looking at the battle order, FreshFeeling. One thing I may try is to always manipulate a preemptive attack. I'll always go first and run 100% of the time, so it will be easy to pick the frame I need to make the next battle preemptive. There will be extra waits for some battles to keep the cycle going, but if the wait is never too long then I think it's a win overall.

Posted: 8/18/2005 1:33 AM

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Inzult

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TheAxeMan wrote:

Kraken should not be a problem as he has a 1/4 chance of essentially doing nothing.

Jesus, I didn't even think of that, but it's so obvious. It's amazing how you miss the little things. Even when they're big. Anyway, I watched the run. This thing is looking hotter all the time. Would it be possible to raid the treasure room in elfland while getting the mystic key before buying the silver sword to use the inn at that point? I mean; would that make the Lich fight quicker to the point of saving the time to walk there? Maybe not... I'm trying to think of ways around the Sahag fights and the Water fights in the sea shrine, but only the Mage staff comes to mind. And I'm not so sure that would even do the trick. You might have to look into using a power cycle, doing the Waterfall 1st and doing the Sea Shrine 1st to see what's the quickest.

Posted: 8/18/2005 2:12 AM

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adelikat

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Inzult wrote:

TheAxeMan wrote:
Kraken should not be a problem as he has a 1/4 chance of essentially doing nothing.
Jesus, I didn't even think of that, but it's so obvious. It's amazing how you miss the little things. Even when they're big.

I'm still missing it. What does this mean?

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Posted: 8/18/2005 2:30 AM

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TheAxeMan

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Adelikat, the first Kraken has only the INK ability, and he uses it 1/4 of the time, according to the gamefaqs masterminds. Even if this works, it will just give "dark" status, which is meaningless due to a bug. Getting around Sahag and Water fights may be a matter of finding the right spot to power cycle. If I obtain a house or cabin earlier, I can put this spot anywhere between leaving ice cave and entering Onrac, and I can also vary by doing the waterfall first or second. I don't see any point to picking up the Elf Castle treasures. It's quite a walk from the Prince's room and nothing in there is that great. I'd sooner beat down an extra enemy. Having HP on Lich wouldn't actually speed up the fight that much. Randomization pauses aren't very long and I could have beaten him in four turns. The only reason I didn't was so I could manipulate the shadows in the next battle. This actually doesn't cost me a lot of time, each turn of battle only takes a few seconds when it's one on one. I'd say at this point the only fights I'd like to improve are the Marsh cave wizards and Astos. Edit: Wait a minute, I could easily go toe to toe with some pretty nasty enemies if I pick up the opal bracelet. This will probably be a desperation thing, but the opal bracelet is attractive because it only reduces my evade by one point while absorbing quite a bit of damage. Probably worth considering, depending on the enemy sequence.

Posted: 8/19/2005 9:17 AM

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TheAxeMan

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Another update: http://home.comcast.net/~f_amoroso/FinalFantasy-TheAxeManv0.2.fcm Over ten minutes ahead of the published run...

Posted: 8/19/2005 10:06 AM

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Fro_Jackson

Joined: 8/25/2004
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I like how the movie ends. Sort of a "how will he get through this?"-esque teaser. The only question I have is why did you buy those two or three heal potions (were they heal potions? I had it on increased speed so I couldn't tell)? I imagine running through the final dungeon with low health would be difficult, so is it sort of a "just in case" plan or what?

Posted: 8/19/2005 3:20 PM

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TheAxeMan

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What I got were cabins, and this was so I can reset the encounter sequence by saving and power cycling. If I do end up doing this I might work out picking them up as treasure next time around, but for now this is faster than going into Coneria just to go to the inn, like Mookish did. I'm hoping I'll be able to finish without taking any more damage--remember I'm not wearing armor so most enemies will kill me pretty easily, 1 HP is almost as good as 100.

Posted: 8/22/2005 6:55 AM

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TheAxeMan

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Ok, I've finished this tale rather hastily because I want to start over and do everything perfect. For anyone interested in seeing this through: http://home.comcast.net/~f_amoroso/FinalFantasy-TheAxeManv0.2.fcm So I take back what I said about healing. With some HP to spare I'm able to take on some fights in TOF, and let's face it, there's no way to get through there without mixing it up a few times. I finished in 1:17:07, which is over 13 minutes faster than the published version. With some more optimizations I believe at least a couple more minutes are possible. For reference, I have 13 fewer random encounters than Mookish, but throughout the entire way I end up fighting out 2 more battles than he does. He avoids all the wizards, but I have two wizards fights each in Earth cave and Ice cave. We each take on one fight in Sea shrine, but he takes on a whole gang of sahags while I pick on two ghosts. Going to Lefein, I only have two ZomBull fights to his three. In the TOF I have four fights to his five. Also, my enemy groups are all perfectly minimized and my fights are faster. I can take out at least a couple of these, maybe more. There should probably be only minor changes to the encounter list up through the Sea Shrine, but I may experiment with saving and loading after that, as long as I can find a good order in TOF. Also, I'm gonna try and pick up both the flame sword and wizard staff. Wizard staff solely for Blue D, flame sword mostly for Kraken, but it will get some other use too. If I had to pick out the key planning point for a run on this game, it's definitely the Sea Shrine. Finding a good encounter sequence for it is a major bitch. TOF is worse on forced fights, but at that point there is a great equalizer in hand...

Posted: 8/22/2005 2:06 PM

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adelikat

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Amazing, I would have never thought this game could be completed to fast. I can't wait to see the final version! (any chance it could be 17 minutes 8 seconds faster?)

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Posted: 8/22/2005 5:44 PM

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FreshFeeling

Joined: 8/13/2005
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This is fantastic. And I thought that Mookish's run was great. I guess the Flame Sword and Wizard Staff can't add that much time, huh?