1 2
Posted: 8/8/2013 7:27 PM
(Edited: 8/8/2013 7:35 PM)
Post subject: Opus codec quality testing
Quote
Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1141)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
It seems that basic support for Opus audio codec in .mkv is near, so I thought to do some testing of quality settings.... http://ilari.tasvideos.org/chronointro.zip The zip contains original capture of the Chrono Trigger intro song loop (29.561s), plus opus (32-128kbps) encoded (and then decoded to flac) versions. The chronointro-0.flac is the original lossless. File sizes: 119686 chronointro-32 150130 chronointro-40 184745 chronointro-48 212899 chronointro-56 235226 chronointro-64 253943 chronointro-72 275710 chronointro-80 294350 chronointro-88 322561 chronointro-96 351176 chronointro-104 368069 chronointro-112 397047 chronointro-120 425976 chronointro-128 All settings except bitrate at defaults (so it uses VBR mode). I used libopus 1.1 beta. Comments?
Posted: 8/8/2013 7:30 PM
Quote
Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
For quality, you should also record extreme sounds at various ends of the spectrum. May I suggest: Chrono Trigger Lavos sound. Mega Man IV Wily Theme - Stereo!
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 8/8/2013 7:59 PM
Quote
Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
I listened to chronointro-32 and chronointro-0.flac a few times back to back. I do notice a slight difference here or there, mostly in those constant beats in the background, but it's not large enough for me to actually care. If these are supposed to be opposite in quality, then that is very good.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 8/8/2013 8:03 PM
(Edited: 8/8/2013 8:47 PM)
Quote
Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1141)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
Nach wrote:
Mega Man IV Wily Theme - Stereo!
http://ilari.tasvideos.org/megamaniv-wily.zip (this is stage select, not Wily theme) http://ilari.tasvideos.org/megamaniv-wily2.zip (some stage theme) http://ilari.tasvideos.org/megamaniv-dish.zip (music from fighting some dish boss) Edit: Wrong music... (x2) This is from Super Game Boy (bsnes core).
Posted: 8/8/2013 8:05 PM
Quote
Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Ilari wrote:
Nach wrote:
Mega Man IV Wily Theme - Stereo!
http://ilari.tasvideos.org/megamaniv-wily.zip Edit: Wrong music. This is from Super Game Boy (bsnes core).
Ilari: That's the stage select theme :P Edit: There also seems to be a defect in the stream ~9-10 seconds in. This is in the original too.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 8/8/2013 8:59 PM
Quote
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4017
I think if you want to stress a sound codec to its limits, you need to try it on a song that is very complex with lots of subtle instruments and effects. May I recommend the La Mulana (not the steam but the original version) soundtrack?
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Posted: 8/8/2013 9:01 PM
Quote
Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1141)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
Patashu wrote:
I think if you want to stress a sound codec to its limits, you need to try it on a song that is very complex with lots of subtle instruments and effects. May I recommend the La Mulana (not the steam but the original version) soundtrack?
There's also the consideration that games with music from waveform generators probably need smaller quality setting than ones with full PCM music. So it depends on platform and game too...
Posted: 8/8/2013 9:26 PM
Quote
Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Okay on the finally correct MMIV Wily theme, megamaniv3-72.flac sounds fine. If I drop to megamaniv3-64.flac, I can notice some defects in the audio during where it jumps between left and right close to the end. But I only notice if I'm actually paying close attention looking for a mistake.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 8/8/2013 9:26 PM
Quote
Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1141)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
Jazz Jackrabbit episode 1 ending clip: http://ilari.tasvideos.org/jjackrabbit-ep1end.zip Epic Pinball (ad on quit music) clip: http://ilari.tasvideos.org/epicpinball-end.zip
Posted: 8/9/2013 1:24 PM
(Edited: 9/22/2013 10:18 PM)
Quote
RGamma
Joined: 2/3/2013
Posts: 320
Location: Germany
Some more modern samples: The RE4 intro (the one you get when you press nothing at the main menu), some random Frogger gameplay sequence and the Frogger final boss. Used the same settings/procedure as Ilari. 
$ du --all --bytes
5019961	./re4-intro-0.flac
2995162	./re4-intro-32.flac
4148250	./re4-intro-40.flac
4586172	./re4-intro-48.flac
4676520	./re4-intro-56.flac
4706506	./re4-intro-64.flac
4758964	./re4-intro-72.flac
4786232	./re4-intro-80.flac
4834316	./re4-intro-88.flac
4840875	./re4-intro-96.flac
4846302	./re4-intro-104.flac
4919028	./re4-intro-112.flac
4931645	./re4-intro-120.flac
4942491	./re4-intro-128.flac

$ du --all --bytes
1592745	./chase-0.flac
1006948	./chase-32.flac
1349540	./chase-40.flac
1510151	./chase-48.flac
1514319	./chase-56.flac
1520681	./chase-64.flac
1533906	./chase-72.flac
1543603	./chase-80.flac
1555798	./chase-88.flac
1557395	./chase-96.flac
1559373	./chase-104.flac
1572408	./chase-112.flac
1573878	./chase-120.flac
1574858	./chase-128.flac

$ du --all --bytes
6990114	./finalboss-0.flac
4090147	./finalboss-32.flac
5817116	./finalboss-40.flac
6536888	./finalboss-48.flac
6551756	./finalboss-56.flac
6552239	./finalboss-64.flac
6597581	./finalboss-72.flac
6631870	./finalboss-80.flac
6685404	./finalboss-88.flac
6717860	./finalboss-96.flac
6742955	./finalboss-104.flac
6824470	./finalboss-112.flac
6845393	./finalboss-120.flac
6866841	./finalboss-128.flac

$ opusenc --version
opusenc opus-tools 0.1.6-50-g1ba6702 (using libopus 1.1-beta-13-g0aa8b42)
Copyright (C) 2008-2013 Xiph.Org Foundation
Download re4-intro.tar.gz: https://mega.co.nz/#!plgDnTgY!Fey-vz5ooc0YKvw20VfUKhLrncph5FAhGHp8S5KreE8 Download chase.tar.gz: https://mega.co.nz/#!w9QSHL7b!aQesgTTqvCYx52A9LCYyvRpdszcU_VWpPrdLTQJlxe8 Download finalboss.tar.gz: https://mega.co.nz/#!JowT2JxA!SgWkDQjOY_dG_m6bXUZVX0BRQEc_c9XHBhbBzD8Viv4
All syllogisms have three parts, therefore this is not a syllogism.
Posted: 8/9/2013 2:06 PM
Quote
feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
There just must be some definition which games use chiptune (and need default settings) and which use stream audio (and require higher quality).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 8/9/2013 6:25 PM
Quote
creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
Well, certain video game systems could only use FM synthesis, and their PCM streaming isn't good enough to require higher bitrates.
Posted: 8/9/2013 6:32 PM
Quote
feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
Such cases are not critical for us. I was meaning games that primarily do streams instead of generation/synthesis. Link to video
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 8/10/2013 7:18 PM
Quote
Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1141)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
SNES Chrono Trigger: Lavos Scream(?) http://ilari.tasvideos.org/chronolavosscream.zip SNES Chrono Trigger: Final Battle. http://ilari.tasvideos.org/chronofinalbattle.zip
Posted: 8/10/2013 9:14 PM
Quote
creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
Ilari wrote:
SNES Chrono Trigger: Lavos Scream(?) http://ilari.tasvideos.org/chronolavosscream.zip
I really don't hear much of a difference between "32" and "orig". After several listenings the former is just a little bit muffled.
Posted: 8/10/2013 11:59 PM
Quote
Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1141)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
SNES Chrono Trigger: Epoch theme http://ilari.tasvideos.org/chrono-epoch.zip
Posted: 8/11/2013 12:58 AM
Quote
Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
SNES Chrono Trigger: Corridors of Time (Zeal Overworld Theme) http://ilari.tasvideos.org/chrono-bc12k-overworld2.zip
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 8/11/2013 1:01 AM
Quote
Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Ilari wrote:
http://ilari.tasvideos.org/chronofinalbattle.zip
32 here is awful. If you can't spot a difference here, you either have broken audio equipment or are deaf. I need 72 here, otherwise I can hear a difference in the Tuba near the end. Of course lower than 64, then it gets bad in additional places too.
Nach wrote:
SNES Chrono Trigger: Corridors of Time (Zeal Overworld Theme) http://ilari.tasvideos.org/chrono-bc12k-overworld2.zip
It could be because I'm too tired to notice anything subtle at the moment, but after listening to this a few times, 48 seems fine.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 8/11/2013 8:15 AM
Quote
amaurea
Former player
Joined: 2/19/2007
Posts: 424
Location: UK
I could not distinguish reliably between 48 and orig for chrono trigger intro, last boss or lavos scream. 32, however, I could distinguish nearly 100% of the time.
Posted: 8/11/2013 11:34 PM
Quote
True
Editor, Player (68)
Joined: 1/18/2008
Posts: 663
Set up the Stax SRΛ and had a listen. abx test results in percentage out of at least 10 trials. I don't claim to have a golden ear, but these headphones are very revealing. chronointro 40 - obvious, 100% 48 - getting hard. some of the low sounds had artifacts where I could discern the differences, and some of the high background stuff is sustained in the opus version. 100% 56 - 25%, obviously I can't tell a difference anymore chronolavosscream 40 - obvious, 100% 48 - harder, could tell near the end, 100% 56 - harder still, could still tell near the end, 100% 60 - still could tell, 100% 72 - still could tell, after hearing it like 50 times now it's super fast for me to pick the right one, there's this weird artifact between 5-6 seconds that's super obvious. 100% 80 - artifact still present, 100% 88 - artifact still present, skip 96 - artifact still present, skip 104 - artifact still present, starting to diminish though, 100% 112 - artifact still present, diminished more, have to try harder, 100% 120 - still present, almost gone, 100% in 20 128 - still BARELY present, 90% in 20 chronofinalbattle 48 - some low freq artifacts, 90% 56 - trained to that artifact, 100% 64 - 100% 72 - artifact mostly gone. will test later chrono-bc12k-overworld2: didn't test, but at low bitrates it mostly works starting to get acoustically tired, I'll try more later but what is the intent?
true on twitch - lsnes windows builds 20230425 - the date this site is buried
Posted: 8/12/2013 2:10 AM
Quote
Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1141)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
True wrote:
but what is the intent?
Knowing what kind of bitrates to use when encoding. Even if no program supports it presently, writing an encoder with supports for zones-like (variable bitrate target) behaviour wouldn't be too hard...
Posted: 8/12/2013 5:28 AM
Quote
creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
I think you can combine several video, audio and subtitle files into one MKV file that has one video, audio and subtitle stream.
Posted: 8/12/2013 6:20 AM
Quote
Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1141)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
creaothceann wrote:
I think you can combine several video, audio and subtitle files into one MKV file that has one video, audio and subtitle stream.
Yes, but for single audio stream, encoding it in parts does not work properly (it does work for video but not audio). So for variable-quality audio track, you need audio encoder with support for that (decoders are no problem for thiscase).
Posted: 9/22/2013 11:23 AM
Post subject: Suggested Rates
Quote
Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
We need to come up with a suggested rate list? Here's something to start, comments welcome: (Names taken from Wiki: EmulatorResources) 32x: 56 Arcade: Pre 1987: 32. 1987-1990 48. 1991-1998: 56. 1999+ 64. Atari 2600: 32 Atari 7800: 32 ColecoVision: 32 DOS: Pre 1994: 48. 1994+ 56. GameCube/Wii: 64+? (We need testing) Game Gear: 48. GB: Pre-1993: 48. 1993+: 56. GBA: 56 GBC: 56 Genesis: 48 Master System: 32 MSX: 32 NES: 48 Nintendo 64: 56 Nintendo DS: 56 PCE/PCE-CD (TG-16)/SGX: 56 Playstation: 64? (We need testing) Saturn: 56? Sega CD: 56 SG-1000: 48. SNES: 56 Virtual Boy: 48 Windows: Pre 1996: 48. 1996-1999: 56. 2000+: 64. Thoughts on these welcome. I probably did make a mistake somewhere here, so please go over and look for issues. In any case, some games could probably use adjustment in one direction or the other.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 9/22/2013 6:48 PM
Post subject: Audio Tests for more demanding systems - Opinions wanted
Quote
Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Being that my above posts shows a serious lack of information with some of our newer or fancier systems, I made a lot more audio tests. Please do sound comparison with these, and report at which point can you no longer distinguish between the original and the Opus file. Opus files can be played back with VLC, one of the other supported applications mentioned in Thread #14453: Opus Encoding & Playback - Switch to Opus Discussion, or many other modern audio players and plugins thereof. Arcade (CPS2) - 1996 - X-Men vs. Street Fighter http://nach.tasvideos.org/opustests/xmvsfakuma.7z Arcade (CPS2) - 1997 - Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter http://nach.tasvideos.org/opustests/mshvsfsecret.7z Arcade (CPS2) - 1998 - Marvel Vs. Capcom http://nach.tasvideos.org/opustests/captaincommando.7z DOS - 1994 - Raptor Call of the Shadows http://nach.tasvideos.org/opustests/level01.7z DOS - 1994 - Whacky Wheels http://nach.tasvideos.org/opustests/turbo.7z Gamecube - 2001 - Super Smash Bros. Melee http://nach.tasvideos.org/opustests/pokefloats.7z Playstation - 1999 - Chrono Cross http://nach.tasvideos.org/opustests/scarsoftime.7z http://nach.tasvideos.org/opustests/thedreamthattimedreams.7z Playstation - 2000 - Mega Man X5 http://nach.tasvideos.org/opustests/mmx5.7z Wii - 2008 - Super Smash Bros. Brawl http://nach.tasvideos.org/opustests/bossbattlesong1.7z http://nach.tasvideos.org/opustests/kingdededestheme.7z Windows - 1995 - The Incredible Machine 3 http://nach.tasvideos.org/opustests/track15.7z Windows - 2007 - Rosenkreuzstilette http://nach.tasvideos.org/opustests/freudiastage.7z http://nach.tasvideos.org/opustests/irisstage1.7z Windows - 2008 - Bionic Commando Rearmed http://nach.tasvideos.org/opustests/full.7z http://nach.tasvideos.org/opustests/version05.7z
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
1 2