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Hi everyone. I'm "new", but I've watched almost all of the videos and lurked for a while. I just watched the new Rygar video and I think I know of some things that can be improved. I didn't see any existing threads so i started this one. I don't know if Warp come here, I haven't seen him/her I think. Anyway: 1) Since replay is possible, I think powerups could be collected easily to always have a whole-screen-attack at the bosses, to use while jumping towards them. For example at the first boss. 2) At the first boss, the player usually gets three hits per jump, but occasionally only two. I'm quite sure three is be possible every time. It doesn't matter how much you hold autofire, the hits goes in at the same rate anyway and are clearly audible. 3) Around 7:49, the grappling hook can be used further to the right. Not much to gain though. 4) Why is the spider boss jumped over before ducking? It is to get it in the right pattern? The most obvious would be to duck directly. 5) When entering the third castle with the horrible music, isn't it possible to jump on the outside of the rock downward, instead of walking around the house? Just an idea. 6) At the third boss the player usually distributes two hits in every jump, but sometimes three. Although three might not be possible all the time because of the random projectiles, I'm pretty sure this can be improved. 7) I was a bit surprised when I saw the player jumping over a river at one point. I thought this wasn't possible. At 12:19 in the video there's a similar passage, isn't it possible to jump right over here too instead of going around? 8) With the snails in the tower, same as before, most of the time two hits per jump, but sometimes only one. 9) At 15:34, the player takes damage which it seems would take very little time to prevent. Couldn't this damage be taken elsewhere to save more time? Also, no health is picked up in the entire game. Picking up health along the way would of course increase the number of places where you can get hit to save time. 10) At the fifth boss, the player attaches his grappling hook very close to the boss, which makes him jump extra high. This seems unneccesary. Any other ideas?
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Warp, what do you think?
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Even though I have made (three versions of) the rygar timeattack, I have to admit that I might not know 100% of the little details of the game and there perhaps may be some things I have missed. But about your suggestions: 1) Unlike in many other NES games in Rygar the items are not dropped by the monsters randomly. It seems that each 6th-10th (or something similar) monster drops an item and there doesn't seems to be any way of influencing this frequency. You can influence which item they drop (star or bottle) with a small probability, but that's it. In the timeattack I had to sometimes make rather long parts again because the monsters were dropping a bottle when I really needed a star. No simple variation in movement seemed to affect this, but when I played a longer part again, it changed to a star. 2) Honestly I don't know if the thumping sound is directly related to the monster getting damage. It probably is, but the first time I tried killing the forest boss I did it without autofire. The second time I did it with autofire, and it died almost twice faster. It may be that the second time the autofire helped make more hits in the same time (even when you can only make damage at certain intervals). Anyways, it's very difficult to optimize those triple-fire-thingie-throwing monsters because you need to constantly predict when will the next one be shot to jump over it. If you jump too late, you get hit. I'm not saying it's not possible to optimize those boss battes, I'm just saying that if it's possible it's not trivial... 3) If this was a smb-type timeattack where you are optimizing even single frames away (which IIRC are about 1/20 of a second in famtasia) that would certainly be true. However, since this is such a long game and the random nature of the game may cause several seconds slower or faster runs each time anyways, those fractions of seconds probably don't affect the overall time in any drastic way. It's certainly true that I might have saved fractions of seconds here and there, but they all probably sum up to a few seconds in total (which could then be lost with an unlucky random monster placement later or whatever). Rygar is quite a laborious game to make a timeattack for... :) 4) Rygar is too close to the wall at the start of the spider boss screen, so he must run some distance to the right for the ducking tactic to work. Also, you can't hit the spider right away, when it's coming towards you because it will change its direction and start going away from you, thus you have to wait for it to get to your left. I don't believe running a bit to the right, ducking and waiting for the spider to get to your left saves any time compared to the jumping (or if it saves, it's some fractions of seconds). 5) This might actually be true. I have never tried it. Could save a couple of seconds if it works. 6) The Dorago boss is difficult as hell. In the first timeattack I made it took me (IIRC) more than an hour to defeat it, and it resulted in a 3min 20secs battle. In the second timeattack I optimized the jumping better and was able to drop it to 1:40. In this third timeattack I was able to optimize it even further to 1:20 by not jumping so much to the other side. It may be possible to optimize it a bit more, perhaps even 5-10 seconds, but it's a very difficult one. Those projectiles make it quite difficult. 7) I thought it was impossible too, in my first two timeattacks. In this third one I tried it again, just in case, and to my big surprise I found a tiny spot there under the rope where you could jump from and it would reach the other side, which saves quite some seconds compared to having to go around the river. The second time I had to cross the same river in the same direction I just didn't find the spot even though I tried dozens and dozens of times, so I just gave up and used the rope instead. (Btw, if someone doesn't know, the rope can't be used until you get the hook from the end of the forest level.) Everywhere else I have tried jumping over that kind of gap I have failed. If there are other places which such a peculiar feature, I was unable to find them. It might have something to do with the rope itself: Perhaps the game engine adds something there where you can stand on and which usually isn't there. 8) The snails shoot more often than the forest boss and they are even more difficult. It might be possible to optimize those too, but it's not trivial. 9) I never take damage on purpose. I always try to find a way to run without taking damage without slowing down more than perhaps a fraction of a second. The 15:34 situation is much trickier than it may look from the video. The flying monster is too high to be hit while standing, so the only way of hitting it would be to jump. If you jump, however, you must just jump on place, without advancing (because else you just fall to the gap and die). It's not possible to jump the gap, you must use the rope. Also, the flying monster is too far away to be hit if you jump before the rope (and try to hit while falling back to the ground). I tried tons of things there, but couldn't find any way of solving it fast, so I decided to take the damage instead of spending more than a second jumping without advancing. My principle has always been to avoid taking damage unless the only way of not taking it would be to waste too much time (I consider even 1 second to be too much). As for taking damage on purpose in other places, do you have anything concrete on mind? I'm not aware of any place where I could have saved time by taking damage. And as I said earlier, you can't control the frequency of the items. Even if taking damage would speed up something, you can't get the bottles whenever you like. 8 stars is a must in the timeattack, 3 for the "power up" and 5 for the "attack & assail". You can get a total of about 10 or 11 items in the timeattack, but you really don't have time for more. For those who don't know: Rygar can cast three types of magic: Power up, attack&assail, and recover. "Power up" takes three mind points (which you get with the stars, that is, you need to collect three stars in order to cast this spell). You can cast it only once, but it lasts for as long as you are alive. It makes your hits stronger and your shield to reach farther. For this reason it's very important to get three stars as early as possible, definitely before the first boss (the forest monster). Once you get it, you have this boostup for the rest of the run. (And as I said, you can only cast it once, so you don't get any additional boostup by casting it again later.) "Attack & assail" gives you 10 hits to every monster in the screen and it consumes 5 mind points (meaning you need to collect 5 stars). Even though this would be handy for all the bosses, you simply don't have the time to collect the required stars. In the timeattack I reserve this spell for the final boss, which is the most difficult one. 10) It's usually unnecessary, and I didn't do it in my first nor second timeattack, but I had to curse the entire family of that **** boss because no matter what I did (and I even tried to play that entire level leading to that boss again) this time it shot two of those fire thingies right at the beginning. I certainly tried everything I could to avoid them without losing time, but for no avail. What you see in the video is the *only* and *fastest* way of avoinding them which I could find. Honestly.
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Rygar is one of my all-time favorite games so I know pretty much about it. I guess you could save some seconds of all the suggestions above. One thing though. Rygar is gaining experience for every monster he´s killing. When I was younger I had problems with the first boss, the forest monster, so I simply went to uhm.. world 3? the one with the robots and all the rope climbing. Here it is some ugly flying monsters and they give great experience (Pretty soon in the stage, dont need anything to get here). This means you can lvl Rygar up so much you can take care of the first boss in 3-5 hits! And the spider is something like that too with a boosted Rygar. 10 hits maybe. Ok, this will waste lots of time and probably be boring to watch but instead of doing this it could be a good idea to spank enemies while running forward. Maybe gaining some lvl before first boss etc and saves hits. Just a thought ;P Maybe not doable in a speedrun. Edit: I realize my english suck. Sorry for that =/
/Walker Boh
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Well that's why he killed lots of enemies on his path all the time... He just didn't go for a hunting spree.
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Uhm ok, sorry ;P Just watched the movie once.. Ah well, lvling hardcore style in the beginning could be useful.. Maybe not though since it steals much time from the running.
/Walker Boh
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Hey there Warp. 1) I went back and checked and you are (of course) correct. It's my memory which fails me. There seems to be no obvious way to increase drop frequency. 2) I'm fairly certain the thump signals damage dealt. Isn't the enemy flashing between the thumps? In any case, there is one thump when you get a hit in on the way down and two thumps while standing. Sometimes you missed the one on the way down. Also about this boss, I read in a faq that you can trick him into the right-hand end of the screen where the door later will be, so that he becomes stuck and cannot fire. Then you can pound on him standing still. I don't know if this is quicker or not - have you tried it? 3) Alright. As I said, I know it's not making much difference. 4, 5 & 6) Understood. 7) Yeah, that jump impressed me as hell. Trying it out in my emulator I'm not even close to succeeding. You could be right that it's somehow because of the rope. If so then it's not possible to use at 12:19. Maybe at 12:32 still, there is a rope on one side there. 8) The snails are hell. I remember always dieing there. But as long as you get the jumping right, I think the only thing you need to do is to hold down autofire early enough, so you hit them on the way down too. You could hold down autofire all the time really, it looks a bit sloppy but it works. 9) Alright, I understand the thing about the flying moster now. And yes, I had something concrete in mind: the bosses. A lot of time is spent on jumping or otherwise avoiding shots, and not doing damage. But since there doesn't seem to be a fast way to get more health, I guess this is undoable. All the Coat of Arms places are a bit off you path, I think. Perhaps you could trade the attach and assail for a recover. It's only 10 hits, after all. But perhaps they are stronger than ordinary hits, I really don't know. 10) I understand. If you say it's the fastest way it probably is. There's an interesting bug here, btw: you can grapple downwards and go directly up again, and the boss will lower itself to jumping height. It's probably not faster though, but you can always try it out. 11) Another thing is that you can use the flute on the last boss to remove its arms for a couple of seconds. I don't know if this makes him shoot less or if it's just a graphics bug. Also the menues have a delay so I don't know if it's worth the effort.
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Truncated wrote:
2) I'm fairly certain the thump signals damage dealt. Isn't the enemy flashing between the thumps? In any case, there is one thump when you get a hit in on the way down and two thumps while standing. Sometimes you missed the one on the way down.
The problem with those bosses is that they don't only shoot, they also advance from time to time. This means that I must retreat in order to not to get hit (or start jumping on the monster). Retreating with the fire blasts floating around is quite tricky manouvering and it's practically impossible to shoot at the monster at the same time as you are retreating and trying to not to touch those fire blasts. You are right in that the boss fights could probably be optimized a little more, but I am quite certain that not very much.
Also about this boss, I read in a faq that you can trick him into the right-hand end of the screen where the door later will be, so that he becomes stuck and cannot fire. Then you can pound on him standing still. I don't know if this is quicker or not - have you tried it?
I have read about this trick as well, but I don't believe it helps much because the monster advances so slowly. You would just have to be jumping on it and wait until it walks into the wall. You can't hit it while you are jumping on it. I haven't tried it in practice, though, but I believe that it would take way too much time. But perhaps I should try it, just for the sake of it. :)
8) The snails are hell. I remember always dieing there. But as long as you get the jumping right, I think the only thing you need to do is to hold down autofire early enough, so you hit them on the way down too. You could hold down autofire all the time really, it looks a bit sloppy but it works.
The snails have the same problem as the forest boss: They advance, forcing you to retreat. It could perhaps be optimized a bit further, but probably not too much.
9) Alright, I understand the thing about the flying moster now. And yes, I had something concrete in mind: the bosses. A lot of time is spent on jumping or otherwise avoiding shots, and not doing damage.
The bosses also inflict more damage than the smaller monsters. Usually a hit takes two energy units away. Another problem is that when you are hit, you are thrown back (this doesn't happen when you are hanging from a rope, though).
11) Another thing is that you can use the flute on the last boss to remove its arms for a couple of seconds. I don't know if this makes him shoot less or if it's just a graphics bug. Also the menues have a delay so I don't know if it's worth the effort.
Didn't know about that. If it makes the boss to shoot less, then it may actually help.
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Hi again... I've been reading up a bit about Rygar and found something slightly incredible. 12) The Sky Castle has an interesting bug. Instead of walking east on the courtyard, go north a bit and then jump left. You would expect to die, but instead you land on top of the castle walls (!) due to some wraparound glitch. From here I managed, with some trickery and jumping corners, to go all the way on top of the walls to the entrance to Ligar! Sadly, due to a scrolling bug, I cannot enter. The door entrance seems to be exactly where the screen normally scrolls. But if this can be pulled off in some way it could save most of the 1min 46secs spent walking through the castle, besides from looking cool. (I think I just had my first "drool" experience.) I have some screenshots and a Nesticle save state, but sadly no server space. You can contact me via: con_carnage at spaminfestedhotmailaccount dot com if you want them. 13) Just a thought: Does the game really check for all five items to give entrance to the sky castle, or does it assume that you have the rest if you have the flute? After all, you don't need the coat of arms and the armor to retrieve the flute. I have been to lazy to verify this starting from the beginning, but probably you have some save states spread out through the game. This could save two whole castles if it works (but it probably doesn't). 14) One source (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/nes/code/8096.html) claims that you can fly by holding autofire on A and B as you drop into a hole. I don't have autofire so I can't check this, and I don't have a specific idea for where it can be used, but anyway. Being able to fly can't hurt. 15) The same source also claims that if you stand next to the door at Belzar and face left as you are hit, you will die and then be teleported to Ligar when you press start. This sounds absurd, but you never know. You could skip three castles if it does... Also, I checked 11) and it sadly seems to just be a graphics bug. The arms disappears whenever you press start, you don't have to use the flute. The arms reappear when you hit him. Ligar shoots just as much. Darn. Anyway, if you start a new run, let me know how it's going.
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Some personal experience facts: As I said before this was one of my all-time favorite games when I was younger. I played it whenever I could. About the 12, the bug in the castle. Yes this is an old bug and you dont have to go anywhere really. Just jump left as soon as you enter the castle. I don´t know this but after spending lot´s of hours there I never managed to get somewhere =( So I think this is useless. Just cool to know there are other "areas" in the castle you can visit. And the graphic bug is as you said just graphic. The arms are there but invisible. I learned this from experience also. Happy as hell cus they seemed to be gone but then he still fires and you can´t go near him. Standing on Ligar or behind him doesn´t help either. You just dies alot faster. Best tactic is the "eveyone-on-the-screen-dies" scroll and hitting him in the face. I don´t know about the other bugs but since you managed to jump over a river (which I never accomplished after hours of trying) it might be possible.
/Walker Boh
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Truncated wrote:
12) The Sky Castle has an interesting bug. Instead of walking east on the courtyard, go north a bit and then jump left. You would expect to die, but instead you land on top of the castle walls (!) due to some wraparound glitch.
That's certainly something worth studying. If it works, it's fortunately at the end of the game so it's easy to remake just the end of the timeattack, keeping the rest the same.
13) Just a thought: Does the game really check for all five items to give entrance to the sky castle, or does it assume that you have the rest if you have the flute?
I read a walkthrough of the game and it said that you must have all the objects in order for the rope to appear (ie. the flute alone does not suffice). Even though I didn't actually check, I trusted that this is so.
14) One source (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/nes/code/8096.html) claims that you can fly by holding autofire on A and B as you drop into a hole. I don't have autofire so I can't check this, and I don't have a specific idea for where it can be used, but anyway. Being able to fly can't hurt.
Rygar can indeed start "floating" with the autofire trick when walking off a cliff. However, this floating is too slow for it to be useful anywhere, as far as I can imagine. Interestingly, I found a quite funny glitch in the game using this floating trick. I don't think it's usable in the timeattack, though, but it's funny. You can watch the glitch if you have famtasia with this fmv: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~warp/rygarglitch.zip Perhaps Bisqwit would be so kind to make an AVI from it for those who can't view it directly?
15) The same source also claims that if you stand next to the door at Belzar and face left as you are hit, you will die and then be teleported to Ligar when you press start. This sounds absurd, but you never know. You could skip three castles if it does...
I'm not comfortable with the idea of dying in order to speedup the timeattack. What do other people think about it?
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It was ok in the speedrun of Solomons Key, so why not here? If it´s even possible. btw, im trying to figure Famtasia out now ;) Maybe I´ll be able to do some own running. *hopes*
/Walker Boh
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WalkerBoh wrote:
It was ok in the speedrun of Solomons Key
I'm not sure whether it was ok there either.
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I think it looks skilled to die obviously on purpose when it would speed up a run. It makes an impression of the player not caring about saving his lives for the harder parts. Imho of course.
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yeah but ppl watching the movie wouldn't know that it saves time
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Bisqwit wrote:
WalkerBoh wrote:
It was ok in the speedrun of Solomons Key
I'm not sure whether it was ok there either.
Personally I would prefer a Solomon's key run without the death, but that's just my opinion. :)
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I didn't mind the death in SK. It's okay to take damage in interesting ways (Castlevania, G&G, Friday the 13th etc), I don't see why taking damage should stop at death. ----- Warp, I tried playing your short Rygar video in Famtasia but nothing special happened. After a while you fell into a hole so I'm guessing there's some kind of problem with it, or it's because I'm unexperienced with Famtasia. Shouldn't I just choose playback after I load the game?
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Truncated wrote:
After a while you fell into a hole
Use the European ROM.
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>Use the European ROM. That could be it, I'll check. Thanks.
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Whatching the movie again. I just remembered a few things. When you visit the gods, like getting the rope, if you jump down there ain´t u being transported back to the beginning? Dying of course but this could maybe save time somewhere? And that flying glitch. I have just read about it here and I didn´t get the .fmv file to work with that. Anyways, is it possible to perform such flying in the "robot land"? If so it would be a great way to boost Rygar to kick other bosses more easy. And finally, this is a rumor from some childhood friend. I don´t know if it works or if it could be useful but I can mention aswell as not. Anyways, my childhood friend claimed he had tricked the first boss out the door to the left. Don´t know if that was "killing" it or if it was easier to fight outside the actuall bossroom. And yet again. This is only rumors and thoughts. I can´t tell if they work or if they are just jibberish. But it could be worth a try? Just saw another thing. After defeating the spiderboss you head up for the next castle. Once over the water there are rocks you have to walk around. Is it possible to jump around them? Maybe i´ll just should shut up and enjoy your work ;)
/Walker Boh
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WalkerBoh wrote:
When you visit the gods, like getting the rope, if you jump down there ain´t u being transported back to the beginning? Dying of course but this could maybe save time somewhere?
Even if this saved time (which I doubt), I would be opposed to use dying in this way to save a bit of time. In fact, I don't like dying to speedup the timeattack regardless of whether it saves a few seconds or 10 minutes. If it saves just a few seconds then it's just not cool; it makes the play look imperfect (even if the viewer knows that the death is intentional). If it saves 10 minutes then it's not much different from using a cheat code to jump right to the last level of the game, ie. not very much fun to watch. After all, the goal of these timeattacks is perfection. Dying does not feel perfect.
And that flying glitch. I have just read about it here and I didn´t get the .fmv file to work with that. Anyways, is it possible to perform such flying in the "robot land"? If so it would be a great way to boost Rygar to kick other bosses more easy.
The flying glitch is too slow for almost any place. There aren't many places where you could skip significant parts of the level by using it. One place, though, where you could use it is in the spider cave level. There are places where you could skip about half the level if the flying glitch works there.
And finally, this is a rumor from some childhood friend. I don´t know if it works or if it could be useful but I can mention aswell as not. Anyways, my childhood friend claimed he had tricked the first boss out the door to the left. Don´t know if that was "killing" it or if it was easier to fight outside the actuall bossroom.
I haven't tried it, but as far as I can understand, you need to just jump on the monster and wait for it to walk into the wall. This sounds way too slow (specially because you still need to kill it after it's stuck, and that takes time too, even if you don't have to dodge the fire blasts anymore).
Just saw another thing. After defeating the spiderboss you head up for the next castle. Once over the water there are rocks you have to walk around. Is it possible to jump around them?
Yes. This is my bad. I didn't notice that shortcut when I made the timeattack. It would save several seconds.
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Sounds cool man. And yes I totally understands why you are unwilling of dying. It was just a thought. Maybe it could be used in some other game. I have finished whatching (spelled how) now and I don´t even think it would save time to die at gods place. But the trick to go to Ligar directly if it works. That must be cool? Ok, you are dying here aswell but since no one will now about that possible bug I think it would be cool. -- edit And yet another thought. Since I like the idea of leveling Rygar so the first boss can be beaten with 3-7 hits maybe, I have another suggestion. I don´t know how much exactly it takes but running up and spanking robots before killing it obviously takes too much time. But if not only getting stars at your way through him (first boss still) why don´t kill a few more enemies to get atleast 1 more level? Else it seems to be just to get the stars and for no other useful reason.
/Walker Boh
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I believe that trying to level up by killing smaller monsters takes more time than just killing the boss. In my 2nd timeattack I killed more at the beginning (ie. from the start to the forest boss) but it didn't really help at all. In this 3rd timeattack I made this beginning 15 seconds faster and it didn't take any longer to kill the boss. By the way, I tried to make the trick where the forest boss walks into the wall and gets stuck, but I didn't succeed. It just didn't walk into the wall. Does anyone have more specific instructions?
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[quote="Warp"]By the way, I tried to make the trick where the forest boss walks into the wall and gets stuck, but I didn't succeed. It just didn't walk into the wall. Does anyone have more specific instructions?[/quote] Uhm, as I said it was just a childhood rumour. My friend back then could have said it just to impress me and my brother having problems killing the boss at that time. Or else he just dreamt it.. Would have been cool though.
/Walker Boh
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Warp and WalkerBoh, you are talking past each other. WalkerBoh talks about the left door, Warp about the right end of the room. For Warp, a more detailed instruction from GameFAQs: "Upon entering the room, run and jump on his head and move your bouncing body so he is facing right, but throwing his fireballs left. Keep holding right on the directional pad as Eruga sticks himself in the tree on the right. He will twitch around a bit, but when he finally sticks himself in there good, he will stop moving and throwing fireballs altogether, and you are free to jump off him and whack away. This bug is the hardest one to pull off, but don't get frustrated. You start right back in the room with him when you die and it only takes one time to get it right." WalkerBoh, about tricking the boss out the door on the left: I'm fairly sure it's simply not possible. The game has no support for moving enemies through doors. When you exit a room, there are no calculations of what goes on in there anymore.