Topic by Metarkrai

Posted: 3/20/2015 1:39 PM

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Metarkrai

Joined: 1/6/2012
Posts: 51
Location: France

grassini : You can't access Battle Frontier easily without beating the league, and easy Pokemon to corrupt are Smeargle. For now, I have no strategy that would allow one Pomeg Glitch corruption to corrupt event flags safely (apart from TheZZaZZ ACE), as the current strategy I'm doing with corruptions corrupts the player position before Bag/events, the few Glitch Pokemon that have a name long enough to corrupt event flags didn't allow me to continue playing after corrupting them. But well, the 7 Symbols run could be made right after league completion, as there would only be few actions to do in pre-league phase to be optimal. For the 4 stars, I really don't know how long this would take, and the timetable of the different goals completion during the run. But as long as someone is willing to make a TAS of it (like after Goddessmaria rework on the E4 Route), I'll take more time to clearly make a route, and not only think about it. jlun2 : I don't remember if there are effects other than the ones in the Contest effect list that Glitch Moves can have. A lot of them make the game freeze during the contest as the battle animations are forced (and Glitch Moves battle animations really oftenly freeze the game).

Posted: 3/20/2015 5:44 PM

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GoddessMaria

She/Her

Reviewer, Experienced player (849)

Joined: 5/29/2009
Posts: 514
Location: Hell...

I'm sure that if a 4-stars run would be made, there will have to be some ground rules set for it, otherwise it would be almost like random messing about and wasting more time.

Current projects: failing at life

Posted: 3/28/2015 1:53 AM

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N._Harmonik

She/Her

Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 502
Location: Canada

Metarkrai wrote:

grassini : I would prefer a 4 Stars run as getting them in Emerald gives you respect from all the nurses.

It does?

Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?

Posted: 3/28/2015 3:50 AM

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Zowayix

Joined: 12/29/2007
Posts: 489

N. Harmonik wrote:

Metarkrai wrote:
grassini : I would prefer a 4 Stars run as getting them in Emerald gives you respect from all the nurses.
It does?

I can't speak for Emerald specifically, but I know in HGSS the Pokemon Center nurses have special dialogue once you have 4 or more Trainer Card stars, such as asking if you want "the usual" when you go to heal your Pokemon.

Posted: 3/28/2015 5:11 AM

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KusogeMan

Active player (434)

Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1693
Location: Brasil

i'm pretty sure it doesn't happen in emerald but i don't believe it's relevant to the discussion,what are the rules to be set,as mentioned by goddess maria?Banning the corruption of the 7 stars or pokedex completion or something like that?

TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched fighting games with speed goals in general

Posted: 3/28/2015 5:26 AM

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Zowayix

Joined: 12/29/2007
Posts: 489

In the Pokemon Red "catch 'em all" run, the only requirements are that you cannot execute arbitrary code and you cannot corrupt Pokedex flags directly. I suppose the same rules would apply here; executing arbitrary code is (barely) possible in Emerald (possibly significantly easier with TAS) and certain flags are corruptible, so the rules would be something like no corrupting the Trainer Card stars' flags directly, nor corrupting the flags that set those objectives (which would include the fact that the Hall of Fame has been entered, the fact that the Pokedex is complete, the fact that the Master Rank Contest paintings have been created, and the fact that the seven Gold Symbols have been earned). According to Bulbapedia you actually only need to complete the Hoenn Pokedex, not the National Pokedex, so in theory the only glitch you need is to use Glitzer Popping to get the few Pokemon that are exclusive to Ruby and Sapphire. But of course doing things like getting an Instant Flee Glitch Move and corrupting Fly locations would make things significantly faster, particularly the Battle Frontier.

Posted: 3/28/2015 9:13 PM

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Metarkrai

Joined: 1/6/2012
Posts: 51
Location: France

grassini : The nurse respect only happens in Emerald for 3rd gen games, and was ported down into 4th gen. Zowayix : ACE is possible with Glitzer Popping (with Glitch Pokemon), but I don't know to what extent it can be done, as there's a difference between the 7 Gold Symbols flags and 202 Caught + Seen Pokemon. With Glitzer Popping (Pokemon selection pointer corruption), you can corrupt 2-3 Silver Symbols (has no use because you still need the golden ones). I think that the Paintings can be corrupted with this, which would give the Contest star, but yeah that wouldn't be really fun. The Hall of Fame first time can be corrupted, but it has no relevance since you need to beat the League to get an access to Battle Frontier. For the 4 stars, I don't think there are direct flags attached to them (every time you open the trainer card, the stars are rechecked), so that point doesn't really matter. The data/ideas I have for the 4 stars are for now : - League : Use Ever Grande Fly Location to access Ever Grande and get an Instant Flee Glitch Move to wreck League. Also unlocks Battle Frontier. - Battle Frontier : Catch some specific Smeargle from Artisan Cave, and get an OHKO Glitch Move (priority + 100% accuracy + glitch type). Get also a Battle Type modifier Glitch Move to catch Pokemon in Dome while winning fights, and also get back the IFG one to instantly end Dome battles once enough Pokemon were caught, if necessary. Manipulate enemies to never get Sturdy ones, and manipulate Battle Palace fights to always use the good move. -- Using IFG in other Battle Frontier areas, apart from Pyramid, makes you lose, so you're forced to go with KOing moves. In Pyramid, you don't need to kill a single thing apart from the Leader. -- Use certain Glitch Pokemon to change the winning streak in certain Battle Frontier areas to (possibly) reduce the amount of streaks necessary to beat the Leader. This would also reduce the manipulation required in Battle Factory to get short and easy fights. This would need to be done building by building (glitch then symbol then glitch then symbol...), I think. - Pokedex : Use a Battle Type Modifier Glitch Move to catch Trainer Pokemon. This would cut most of the required evolutions, as well as clearing paths for certain roads/areas while getting some Pokemon. This can be used in Battle Frontier / Tents to get the missing Pokemon easily as they can be manipulated. Master Balls can be easily obtained with Pomeg Glitch, as well as a quantity corruption, so that might be useful since it barely wastes time to get them, but I don't know how long a RNG manipulation for a capture can take. Corrupting the Rare Candy quantity (along with another corruption, EGFL if possible) to make some quick evolutions. Once the rest is decided, make a specific route for Pokemon catches and test what things are faster to do. Certain Pokemon can also be obtained with Pomeg Glitch if necessary. (I wanted to get Jirachi and Deoxys to have the full Regional Dex and not only 200/202 Pokes for the stars as that seemed cooler to me) See what way is faster for Pokemon that would be quite distant. - Contests : Get a corrupted Pokemon that already possesses all basic Ribbons. Teach him some combo moves for certain categories (maybe clone it to directly have different sets for different categories and be TM pouch independent for the rest of the run), and beat the Master Rank Contests. Maybe get event berries with Pomeg Glitch to get highly powered Pokeblocks (or just mild Pokeblocs with other berries but I think the rare berries can be obtained quite quickly) if that's needed. Pokeblocks can also be corrupted to have more Cuteness (+05 or +64), so there's no need to get Rare Berries for cuteness. - Required Pokemon : Pokemon that will have specific sub-structures rearrangements once their PID is corrupted to have specific Pokemon Corruptions. This would be used to get : Species read on EVs (for Glitch Pokemon & items), Species read on Moves (for items and maybe certain Pokemon), Moves read on Growth/EVs/Misc to get certain Glitch Moves. Smeargle to Sketch some Glitch Moves. (as the other Pokes that would get a desired Glitch Move may also possess other glitch moves that freeze the game) A Misc read on Growth Pokemon, so its Ribbons can be manipulated with PP bonuses and Friendship. A 0x0000 Bad Egg to perform Pomeg Glitch without Pomeg Berries (and also do it a bit faster). A Glitch Pokemon to make fast clonings (0x2600), if this is required. Certain Glitch Pokemon to overwrite some RAM data to change the Battle Frontier winning streaks and set the "current streak" flag. These Pokemon would be accompanied with some others to still be able to make normal battles and use PC. - This would induce the loss of Berry + TM pouches by changing the "DMA quantity encryption value", but since we would be Pomeg Berry-independant at this point, that wouldn't be dreadful at all. - This would also give a ton of money to buy Repel + Balls. (Or perform a Pomeg Glitch to corrupt Money whilt not corrupting Berry + TM pouches). -- Maybe get a Pokemon with a specific PID to get Mirage Island Wynauts & Liechii Berries, if the berry is needed. (as I don't think the Egg would have had the steps to hatch) Corrupt Southern Island event to get a Lati@s (if it can't easily appear in Dome / other buildings after a Golden Symbol is obtained). Here, thanks to TAS, a lot of Pokemon Corruptions can be easily done as the PID can be manipulated and the corruption too, giving a potentially quick way to get a load of things. For certain Glitch Pokemon and other things, specific IVs or EV training would be required. With a Money corruption, EV boosters could be bought. Both Acro and Mach Bike could be obtained, allowing for easy Safari Zone hunting (if needed). And I don't see for now another Pomeg Glitch use that would be useful to fasten the process more than it already is on a certain point. The route only needs to be processed with carefulness with all of this (and possibly new discoveries) and some tests to time which thing is faster than the others. ->Thus, I think the total respect from nurses is real. (or beating League + Nurses if you want)

Posted: 3/29/2015 3:16 AM

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KusogeMan

Active player (434)

Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1693
Location: Brasil

can you steal pokes from the frontier?i'm missing something about the text..

TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched fighting games with speed goals in general

Posted: 3/29/2015 3:44 AM

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Zowayix

Joined: 12/29/2007
Posts: 489

^It is known that Instant Flee Glitch Moves can change a battle's type when their name is viewed (this is in fact how they work, by changing a Trainer battle into a wild battle so that they can be fled from). In theory, this should also allow that Trainer's Pokemon to be treated as a wild Pokemon, allowing it to be caught ("stolen").

Posted: 3/29/2015 11:16 AM

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Metarkrai

Joined: 1/6/2012
Posts: 51
Location: France

With some Glitch Move, you can allow/forbid the Bag usage like in Battle Frontier. Thus, certain Glitch Move change the Battle Type to wild battle + Bag allowed, so you can throw balls at the opponent's Pokemon. However, every trainer (apart from Battle Factory) has a different ID/SID couple from yours (or you could maybe try to have an ID/SID equal to the one of a certain NPC). And when you steal their Pokemon your ID/SID is applied to the Pokemon, which messes their data as well as their checksum, turning them into a Bad Egg. Also, in every building apart from Dome and Pyramid trainers (not Pyramid leader), stealing an opponent Pokemon is considered as a loss (in the way that you didn't win/flee), so you can only steal 1 Pokemon from a high-streak trainer before being sent back to streak 0 with trainers that have frail Pokemon. In Battle Pyramid, you can only use Pyramid Bag items, so unless you put Balls in it (which is for now impossible to do while retaining a normal party), you can't steal trainers Pokemon. You can also use Glitch Pokemon to get an empty 1st party slot and perform Pomeg Glitch in Safari Zone to make the guard disappear and leave Safari Zone with Safari Mode on. This allows you to catch Pyramid + Pike wild Pokemon, but even if your Bag is displayed on the menu, you can't use any item from it or the game freezes (it probably tries to use the item from Pyramid Bag but doesn't find it). In Battle Dome, stealing a Pokemon does a draw, and this makes you win. And since we need 70 battles in there, catching Pokemon in the way would be free 70 Pokemon for dex entries. In Battle Pike, the wild Pokemon can also be caught with a Glitch Move, so Milotic/Dusclops/Seviper are also easy to get. I also remembered of something that could be an issue. For now, I don't know exactly what Battle Frontier Building steak can be modified with Glitch Pokemon to be at like 65 to reduce the amount of required battles to 7/14 instead of 70 (63/56 battles saved). This would require 3 or 4 specific Glitch Pokemon, but with EV training they wouldn't take that long to be obtained, and a single Pomeg Glitch is enough to get them all at once. (compared to 56 battles for maybe multiple buildings, that's still time saved) However, for Battle Frontier streaks to be corrupted, the Pokedex flags would be heavily corrupted since one of the storage adresses is before the streaks. Basically, this would wipe out nearly every Dex entry and leave nearly to none owned Pokemon. I don't exactly know how "seen" and "owned" flags are exactly stored in Emerald (I know the storage adresses), but this wouldn't increase the amount of dex entries as only 1 storage adress out of 4 would be corrupted. But would this then still be a save of time considering that during the pre-League run, a good amount of Pokemon could be caught in the way ? Since we would have Fly, I don't think that catching Pokemon after League would be a huge time loss compared to pre-League (since Fly + moving to a certain route) doesn't take that much time. Compared to the amount of texts + fights that could be skipped, and the fact that the Pokedex would be less complete than before (only a dozen of entries would need to be regained), I think for now that the use of Glitch Pokemon to alter the BF streaks would be a good time saver, and wouldn't be too broken for the 4 Stars completion. I'll check if the Glitch Pokemon I'm theorically mentioning clearly exist (I made a successful streak altering, but with higher streaks), but I wanted to say that they would affect the Pokedex entries as the 1st Dex storage adress is right after the Trainer name.

Posted: 4/1/2015 10:24 PM

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Metarkrai

Joined: 1/6/2012
Posts: 51
Location: France

After some tests, I found some convenient Glitch Pokemon, and the way to use them. For mass cloning, I have a Glitch Pokemon that generates invisible Bad Eggs during the process instead of a normal Bad Egg (not that useful in speedrun, but in normal runs it is), and there's a wide variety of Glitch Pokemon that work. I don't have the easiest to obtain identifiant, or one that's right next to a Glitch Pokemon identifiant required for another corruption, but it will be easy to check for this. And for Battle Frontier, I found a family of Glitch Pokemon that can bring the value 0x003C (there's also 0x0036 that's possible). To get the Golden Symbol leader fight, you need two things : -be at fight n°70 (in most buildings) in the end of your streak -have the silver symbol OR have attempted the Golden Symbol fight The strategy here is : Corrupt the streak to put it at 0x003C (61). Corrupt the streak flag to activate it (as if you were continuing it). Corrupt the flag for Golden Symbol fight attempt. Increase the streak to 0x003F (63), and flee/lose. (2 fights) Corrupt the streak flag to activate it again. Beat the streak, and beat the Golden Symbol fight. (7 fights) Thus, 4-7 Glitch Pokemon are needed (depends on the building, as it may be possible to corrupt streak + streak flag + GS fight with a single Poke) to skip 61 Trainer fights. This would be used in at least 6 Battle Frontier buildings (as in Dome you can build up 70 Pokedex entries and make quicker fights by stealing opponents Pokemon), and some Glitch Pokemon required for a certain buildings will be usable for others (especially the one to corrupt the streak)(and if not, the other Glitch Poke needed will have close identifiants, so they will be quickly generated), so this would require 10-15 (maximum) Glitch Pokemon (+ cloning + using them at Slateport) to skip 305 Trainer fights and 61 Pyramid Floors, preserving the life of 915 Battle Frontier Pokemon. As side notes, you can use Safari Mode in Battle Pyramid, and this avoids to corrupt the streak flag again. (this might save time) I don't have the specific values for each building for now, but they will come tomorrow without fail. Since I have a very good family of Glitch Pokemon, there shouldn't be any major issue about it anymore.

Posted: 4/2/2015 3:46 AM

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jlun2

Skilled player (1707)

Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4952
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"

Skipping those trainers seem quite a good idea, given how bad the RNG is for Battle Frontier. Also Battle Palace. ew

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 4/2/2015 9:14 PM

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Metarkrai

Joined: 1/6/2012
Posts: 51
Location: France

With Glitch Moves, Battle Frontier fights will require way less RNG manipulation. You only need to get non-Sturdy Pokemon (as well as non-activation of Focus Band), and Pokemon with low HP in order to make quick kills with an OHKO Glitch Move. I don't know what are the lowest HP base Pokemon, and how much time difference there is in killing Pokemon with different Max HP (except HP tanks like blissey), but I think that having classic HP Base Pokemon with 0 HP Evs would already give fast kills. Ans since a lot of fights would be skipped, there would only be 40 Battles to manipulate for OHKO Glitch Moves, as well as 9 Battle Factory battles. EDIT : Guess what ? I made a mistake. Apaprently, I didn't launch the good savestate, and thought that I got the Golden Brandon fight by modifying a certain flag that wasn't the Silver Symbol flag, but I was wrong. The Golden fight can only appear once you've gotten the Silver Symbol. Thus, this will take longer than what I said yesterday as all Silver Symbols will be required. And I don't know if using Glitch Pokemon to unlock Silver Symbols is faster than unlocking them normally, as you don't need that much fights to get them. I also don't know if skipping some fights after getting the Silver Symbol is faster than doing them or not. (it maybe isn't in Pike) But I'm giving the skipping strategies so that they will be able to be compared to the non-skipping strategy. EDIT EDIT : I'm still writing the fragmented skipping strategy for Battle Frontier, as this took me way more time than expected to be put in place. I hope I'll be able to finish this during the week-end.

Posted: 4/3/2015 1:44 AM

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KusogeMan

Active player (434)

Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1693
Location: Brasil

this is amazing,congratulations on finding and trying the possibility

TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched fighting games with speed goals in general

Posted: 4/3/2015 2:20 AM

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GoddessMaria

She/Her

Reviewer, Experienced player (849)

Joined: 5/29/2009
Posts: 514
Location: Hell...

Perhaps a collaboration is in order?

Current projects: failing at life

Posted: 4/3/2015 2:33 PM

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Metarkrai

Joined: 1/6/2012
Posts: 51
Location: France

I'm already open for any collaboration here, because if I can find Pomeg Glitch related things to make altrenative strategies, I can't easily evaluate the time required to perform certain actions, and compare it no the TAS normal behaviour. For example, on Battle Palace, 12 battles would be skipped before Silver Symbol. This would require the use of at least 3 then 2 Glitch Pokemon, like this : Glitch Poke 1,2,3,4,5 in PC. Fly to Day Care to deposit Glitch Poke 2 and 3. Withdraw 1. Deposit the rest of the team, apart from the Fly user, and place 1 in 1st place. Fly towards Slateport, and go talk to the journalist to get a 12 Battle Palace Streak. Bike (if it's possible, or else run) to Day Care, and withdraw Poke 2. (you can withdraw it because Glitch Poke 1 leaves an empty slot in party) Bike back to Slateport's journalist, and talk to him again to activate the Battle Palace streak. Bike (if it's possible, or else run) to Day Care, and withdraw Poke 3. (you can withdraw it because Glitch Poke 2 leaves an empty slot in party) Bike back to Slateport's journalist, and talk to him again to get a short trainer name + usable trainer sprite (one that doesn't freeze battles). One Fly Pokemon was lost there, but it's not that important because some Glitch Pokemon can allow fast cloning, so the Fly slave would have been cloned multiple times, and that would avoid getting back to the PC to deposit him (little time save there) Go to PC, get back 1 Fly Pokemon, 1 Pokemon with OHKO Glitch Move, 1 Puny Poke, Poke 4 & 5. Place 4 in 1st place. Fly to Day Care and deposit 5 there. Fly to Battle Frontier, enter Battle Palace with OHKO Poke in front. Win 2 battles then retire (win streak to 14). Deposit (or not) OHKO + Puny Poke, then Fly towards Slateport. (OHKO Poké can be massively cloned too, for a shorter time save than Fly Poke as the player would be nearer to PC) Speak to the journalist to activate the Battle Palace streak. Bike (if it's possible, or else run) to Day Care, and withdraw Poke 5. (you can withdraw it because Glitch Poke 4 leaves an empty slot in party) Bike back to Slateport's journalist, and talk to him again to get a short trainer name + usable trainer sprite (one that doesn't freeze battles). Go to PC, get back 1 Fly Pokemon, 1 Pokemon with OHKO Glitch Move, 1 Puny Poke, other Glitch Poke for following Battle Frontier buildings. Place one of them in first party slot. Fly towards Battle Frontier and re-enter Battle Palace with OHKO Poke first to get the Silver Symbol (fight n°21). (12/21 fights skipped) The basic strategy is instead : Use OHKO Poke and win 21 Battle Palace fights. Since each fight has 3 Pokemon and that their death isn't instantly made, 12 fights take more time (to me) than 6 Fly + 6 Day Care - Slateport Bike. But I don't really know how fast it would be to make these 12 OHKO fights, so I'm not sure of that strategy. Also, this is the part of the Battle Frontier strategy where I'm the most unsure about the time saved, because some Golden Symbols require more fights than the Silver Symbol, meaning that for the same amount of glitch Pokemon used (and Fly + Bike), more fights are skipped. Also, this is here an independant strategy : I only corrupt values related to Battle Palace and that's all. It is possible on certain cases to get corruptions useful for multiple Battle Frontier Buildings with certain Glitch Pokemon (like corrupting one streak, corrupting another streak, and activating both of them in one time), saving 1-2 Glitch Pokemon, and some Bike uses. So even if this is quite more sneaky to route, I'm really believeing this saves some time, and this saves a good amount of RNG manipulation, as you trade 12 fights for 3-4 RAM adresses positioning. There's also something that wasn't taken into account here and which is obtaining these very Glitch Pokemon. I'm also working on that, to have the least amount of different Glitch Pokemon required, or ones that are really similar to each other. Since I know that some of these Glitch Pokemon have identifiants like 0x13F6, directly EV'ing would be too long. So a short strategy I came with it : -Catch a "Moves read on Misc" Pokemon with specific IVs that form 0x13F6 (or a value near this one). -Catch a Smeargle with "EVs read on Moves and Growth Read on EVs". -Kill the Smeargle in some way (maybe with Memento + Heart Scale for Sketch). -Use 1 short Pomeg Glitch to corrupt the PID of the 1st Pokemon. -Use an invisible Bad Egg to get a Party with KO Smeargle, Egg of 0x13F6 Move Poke, Invisible Bad Egg. -Get to the Ditto area, and fight a wild Ditto with 0x13F6 Egg. Revive Smeargle to let it use Transform. -Send out Smeargle while Ditto uses 0x13F6. Sketch it. Flee. (make sure that 0x13F6 is move 1) - Give a HP Up to Smeargle (or make him fight 1 Poke for HP Evs) - Deposit Smeargle and perform 2 Pomeg Glitch to corrupt Smeargle TID and PID. -Smeargle became a Caterpie/other Pokemon with 0x13 HP Ev and 0xF6 Atk Evs. -Clone it and use some clones to get like 0x13F4 or 0x13ED with HP+Atk EVs. -Using another Pomeg Glitch to anti-corrupt their TID and PID, which will turn them into 0x13F6, 0x13F4 and 0x13ED Glitch Poke. A simple "Species on Moves" Smeargle would simply have given a 0x13F6 Poke whereas here we directly get a high EV base to work with. OR, another strategy. Use certain items/Berries and an "EVs on Species & Species on EVs" Pokemon to get an 0x13F6 Pokemon (or like 0x13F5) in a faster way. And as this may take quite some time, you need to know that the Pokemon generated with this will serve for all Battle Frontier buildings, and that the OHKO Glitch Move + maybe other Glitch Pokemon will be generated along that, so the time loss extends over nearly every skipped Battle Frontier fight. And performing Pomeg Glitch is faster now with Invisible Bad Eggs (or maybe with a certain Glitch Pokemon that allows for instant Pomeg Glitch). So depending on the number of Glitch Pokemon required, and the number of Pomeg Glitch required, this Glitch Pokemon for instant Pomeg Glitch could also save time. So yeah, that's quite dense. I'm relieved that these corruptions white out the Dex, because having to parse with this and Dex entries would be even more difficult. And yeah, there will be certain dex entries to get back, like a dozen of them. So this is also a time loss to account for, for all the Battle Frontier buildings. But even if the time gained is small, the RNG manipulation is lightened, which I think would be way more pleasant for the TASers. I'm also wondering if Battle Dome should be shortened or not, as I don't know if 15-20 manipulated Pokemon are enough to complete the Dex with Wild + trainers, or if 50 are faster as moving to meet certain trainers would take too much time compared to a long streak of manipulated Pokemon (like meeting a trainer in Meteor Falls or something). But I don't think so because since nearly every route would be examined after that, the trainers would be on the way, so it would maybe take less time to get them than get the Pokes in Battle Dome. But I don't know where some Pokes can be caught, so this needs to be searched for too.

Posted: 4/3/2015 4:20 PM

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GoddessMaria

She/Her

Reviewer, Experienced player (849)

Joined: 5/29/2009
Posts: 514
Location: Hell...

So for the Pokémon that can be obtained in the wild/stationary/etc., we'd be catching them directly?

Current projects: failing at life

Posted: 4/3/2015 7:18 PM

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Metarkrai

Joined: 1/6/2012
Posts: 51
Location: France

Well, we would need to see which trainers can still be fought, and what Pokemon they have. A trainer fight is a slight bit longer than a wild fight (textbox to skip + trainer sprite and Pokemon throw), but for certain Pokemon that would need to go on far zones, like Bagon / Chimecho, this would gain some time. I don't know how much time it takes to force a Pokemon to eat a ton of Rare Candies and see it evolving, (let's say, 5 rare candies) to know if it's faster to go and steal its evolution from a trainer or not. Battle Dome trainers are good as we can steal their Pokemon in a consistent time (modulo some RNG manipulation to get a good contest layout), but since there's a speaker, it takes in average a bit more time to steal one Pokemon than to Fly somewhere, walk a bit, and fight a trainer with the same Pokemon (or at least I'm thinking that it takes a bit more time). So again, unless the trainer is in the last part of Meteor Falls, or in a specific spot in Route 134, they will be deprived of their Pokemon. I don't know when legendaries appear in Battle Dome, but I'm sure that after Golden Symbol, they will be there. And getting all Regis like this would be a gain of time since it would be longer to have 3 Pokemon with 0x0191/2/3 EVs, use Pomeg Glitch on them, and hatch the Eggs. However, since some other legendaries might be done like this (maybe Rayquaza, and Deoxys+Jirachi for sure) one of the Regi could be done in the way. For Lati@s, we have one roamer, and the Southern Island flag to corrupt to get both of them. (unless one can be caught in Battle Dome to be faster than Southern Island). For Safari Zone Pokemon, Mach or Acro Bike might be easily available with Pokemon Corruption, so getting both of them could help to go into all zones directly. We could also try to get Mirage Island to catch one of the Wynauts there, as well ad getting Liechii Berries freely, (Don't know if these berries can be easily obtained with Pomeg Glitch) since they would be required for Dome, and since Mirage Island would be in the way to Pacifildog. What also has to be taken into account is the way things will be done. After League victory, certain essential items/Glitch Pokemon will be obtained, like a cloning Glitch Pokemon, an invisible Bad Egg, a Master Ball, a Rare Candy, some event Berries,.. Then, if Pokeblocks are needed for the contest parts, Pokeblocks will be done, as with Battle Frontier Glitch Pokemon, Bag usage will be lost. Some other Pomeg Glitches will dupe these items to more than enough quantites, as this will save time in some ways later. To get all the remaining Glitch Pokemon, I was thinking of using one Pokemon with the highest (or near) Glitch Move that can be sketched (with the same strategy as in my previous post), so that once corrupted, he would have HP/Atk EVs of 0xFEFF (as en example), meaning that with some clones and Pomeg + .. Berries, we would quickly get really closer to the EV values needed. Obtaining Macho Brace with Pomeg Glitch could be interesting then, as it would fasten a lot the EV training sequence. And once all the good EVs are there, mass Pomeg Glitch sequence for Battle Frontier Glitch Pokemon, some Eggs that will be hatched later, the contest Pokemon, and maybe some others (for items that will only be useful for Pokedex entries), as the fast Pomeg Glitch would be executed there to save a good amount of time (since if would be performed right next to the PC). I'm wondering about the value the TID should have (the value of the second highest bit of the SID), because if it's at 0, it can be corrupted naturally (with a blank space above the Pokemon that needs to be corrupted), and it it's at 1, it needs a "Corruption initiator", a Pokemon that must be placed above it to ensure that this bit can be set to 0. Once the cloning Glitch Pokemon would be obtained, this initiator would be easily cloned on a box, and putting it in front of all the dummy clones for Pokemon corruption would be easy. No, yeah, I think that having the bit at 0 is more interesting, as it wouldn't bother for the first corruptions, wouldn't be that time taking for 12-20 Glitch Pokemon, and some won't require it as they won't be Double Double corrupted (the Pokemon for specific items). I'll need to check the moves/EVs required to get certain items, as it might also be interesting to get a part of them with moves (like Master Ball with Pound), and some of them with EVs (because if the EVs required are like 30, 3 Defense Up things can be used to have this EV amount). Speaking of the Smeargle that would Sketch a Glitch Move like 0xFEFF, I said earlier that it would need to be KO to Sketch the Move, but I forgot that the Pokemon that would get move 0xFEFF can just be Double Corrupted to directly be in a non-hatched state, which would allow to make the "Sketch a Ditto" part easier and a bit faster.

Posted: 4/4/2015 10:30 PM

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Metarkrai

Joined: 1/6/2012
Posts: 51
Location: France

As this now needs some clearance, I started writing a txt file to list all the strategies and required things. http://pastebin.com/vvKFDa5z I haven't put all the things I've thought of there (didn't have the time today), and the look is still a bit messy, but this will be changed in a matter of days. This should start to point the unknown little things that made me hesitate about what Pomeg Glitch thing to use to be as fast as possible. I'm also trying to give short explanations to show why this strategy seems the fastest one, or at least why I think this should be the fastest one, considering the other possible strats, but I can be wrong (like I was 2 days before). There's a lot of things that aren't detailled because there are many possible values for these, and they will be chosen once the route will be really built, but I can give some approximative values. The only one I really can't give is the OHKO Glitch Move value, as I found one in Fr Emerald with a tool made (by a nice person) to specifically read Glitch Moves data and allow to search for certain characteristics, and this tool only has a part of Fr Emerald ROM in it. Since such a move must respect a good amount of conditions, I don't think it be found by reading alone (without spending a huge amount of time), and it would also be interesting to have a list of every Glitch Move meeting the requirements to see which one is the easiest to obtain. I can provide a download link for the application if this can be useful. EDIT 5/04 : Added data about Pre-League Route. Added RAM Corruption section. Added Item Corruption section. Changes in the Pokemon Corruption section (and methods added). Updated Contest, Pokedex completion, and Side data (new items). Gave more details for Glitch Moves and Glitch Pokemon. Now I can focus more on Glitch Pokemon possible IDs since most of the strategies are written. The first two Glitch Pokemon that will be obtained are clearly the Instant Pomeg Glitch and Instant Cloning ones, to get the other Glitch Moves, Items, Glitch Pokemon as fast as possible. EDIT 6/04 : Added some Glitch Pokemon IDs. Added more data about Pokedex Pokemon, as well as new lists. New required items (evolution stones) Added data about the Corruption initiator. Added data about obtaining specific Moves (to corrupt them for Rare berries, for example). Speaking of Corruption Initiator, someone made me remember that the Double Corruptions safety can be insured for a small amount of Pokemon (with manipulations), but not for a large amount of Pokemon. Here, I think that certain Pokemon would be too multi-task to be able to always be well-corrupted with Double Corruption. This means that another Corruption initiator might be needed for more Double Corruptions than I originally thought. There are two potential issues behind the short Double Corruptions : When bit 0x4000 0000 of PID is set, the first double-word of the second substructure will have its bits 0x0500 0000 set to 1, and its third d-word of third or fourth substructures can suffer from a 0x40 Corruption depending on the Pokemon checksum (its congruence mod 24). The 0x05 Corruption can be avoided by having EVs or Misc as second substructure (so the value of bits 0x01... and 0x04... won't change if the Pokemon is reused), but the checksum can't give good values forever if we reuse the Pokemon too much (ex : a Smeargle that's cloned and whose clones Sketch different moves). Thus, I'm wondering if a second Corruption Initiator should be caught, or if some more pokemon should be caught to not need a second Corruption initiator in certain cases. As for now, I don't know how many cases (Corruptions) could be concerned with this issue, so I can't answer about this. This second Corruption initiator would be the affair of catching a manipulated wild Pokemon, and cloning it to place it before certain Pokemon we would need to Double Corrupt. It doesn't need more specific manipulation like the first Corruption initiator (needed) does, so obtaining it is quite fast. Also, for Pokemon captures, I absolutely don't know how much time certain things do : Encountering wild Poke + Catching it (with dex entry) Encountering wild Poke + Catching it in Safari Zone (with dex entry) Fighting with a trainer and stealing its Poke (with dex entry) Evolving a Poke Giving X Rare Candies and evolving a Poke (with some moves that the Poke wants to learn) Because a dozen of evolutions (or more) can be either evolved with X Rare Candies (from 1 to 24), or caught/stolen. So I'd really like to know the maximal amount of Rare Candies (depending on the amount of moves the Poke wants to learn) that still makes the evolution faster than catching/stealing it. (this can be 0, but I doubt it)

Posted: 4/20/2015 1:28 PM

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GoddessMaria

She/Her

Reviewer, Experienced player (849)

Joined: 5/29/2009
Posts: 514
Location: Hell...

So I don't know if it's just me, but the timings seem to differ a bit. VBA-rr v22: Link to video VBAm v24 r480/Bizhawk (Using VBA-Next core): Link to video Console (from 0:46 to 1:56 in video) https://youtu.be/Le_73rJ2gbQ?t=46 It would seem that Bizhawk reduces the loads the transitions a little faster than VBA-rr v22, which the latter is identical to the actual game on console.

Current projects: failing at life

Posted: 4/20/2015 8:54 PM

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jlun2

Skilled player (1707)

Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4952
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"

Try posting that on the Bizhawk section for more attention. :o

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 10/15/2015 7:26 AM

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GoddessMaria

She/Her

Reviewer, Experienced player (849)

Joined: 5/29/2009
Posts: 514
Location: Hell...

Well, here we go! 319 frame improvement so far over the current run mostly due to skipping the Ether in Petalburg Woods, better movement, and better RNG from Petalburg Woods up to Roxanne. Originally it was 413 frames ahead but the Nosepass fight manipulation did cost me 94 frames, but it'll be made up and more so later on with the other things to be done. Encode: Link to video Movie file: User movie #26186322071554167

Current projects: failing at life

Posted: 10/24/2015 2:44 PM

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GoddessMaria

She/Her

Reviewer, Experienced player (849)

Joined: 5/29/2009
Posts: 514
Location: Hell...

Update: WIP #2.5 is finished! 2600 frames ahead so far over the published run. Encode: Link to video Movie file: User movie #26391192364156032

Current projects: failing at life

Posted: 11/17/2015 2:01 PM

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GoddessMaria

She/Her

Reviewer, Experienced player (849)

Joined: 5/29/2009
Posts: 514
Location: Hell...

So as it stands now, the Emerald improvement is going to be put on hold for some time... Sorry...

Current projects: failing at life

Posted: 11/17/2015 5:31 PM

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KusogeMan

Active player (434)

Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1693
Location: Brasil

take ur time,i was excited for it,but we already have a pretty good run on the site and you uploaded your work so somebody else can pick it up,have a nice rest.

TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched fighting games with speed goals in general