Yay, our first submission! Here is the result of our cooperative attempt of improving Qwerty’s recent TAS.

Game objectives

  • Emulator used: Gens 11b + camera hack + solidity viewer + hitbox display + Sonic TAS tools
  • Aims for in-game time instead of real-time
  • Heavy glitch abuse
  • Uses death to save time
  • Takes damage to save time
  • Ignores delays caused by bonus effects

Results

LevelNew in-game timeOld Qwerty’s timeFrames savedTASed by
Mushroom Hill 10:47.240:50.06162 (0:02.42)WST
Mushroom Hill 20:48.090:51.17188 (0:03.08)WST and feeuzz
Flying Battery 10:37.550:38.1318 (0:00.18)WST
Flying Battery 21:09.221:10.1351 (0:00.51)WST and feeuzz
Sandopolis 11:10.071:11.1164 (0:01.04)WST
Sandopolis 21:16.271:34.121065 (0:17.45)WST
Lava Reef 10:43:440:44.3753 (0:00.53)WST
Lava Reef 20:21.390:21.445 (0:00.05)WST
Hidden Palace0:08.040:08.128 (0:00.08)feeuzz
Sky Sanctuary0:57.070:57.081 (0:00.01)feeuzz
Total in-game savings: 1615 frames (0:26.55)
Third-party input parts:
  • DMTM in Flying Battery 1
  • Aglar in Mushroom Hill 2 and Sandopolis 2
  • marzojr in Sandopolis 1
  • TheYogWog in Mushroom Hill 1

Stage by stage comments by WST

Mushroom Hill 1

I began TASing this level, because I had a feeling that proper positionong can allow making a better out-loop jump and save some frames. I was right: it saved about 10 frames. This inspired me to turn my WIP into a serious project. I managed to save about one second by pure optimization when I came to the point where I changed the route. The route change helped to advance the improvement. The final time is 3 in-game seconds faster than in Qwerty’s TAS.

Mushroom Hill 2

Abusing the monitor between the acts to switch into running state, which I suggested in the submission’s discussion, was actually nearly useless. However, I managed to find improvements further. First, making a jump at proper point allowed me not to bounce off the first enemy, and enter the zip point faster (an important part of this maneur was done by Aglar). Second, Aglar pointed out that the 32 pixel wall further may be skipped by proper alignment (the wall ejection speed itself would be not enough for this trick, but it becomes slightly higher because of the slopes there). These two maneurs saved about 2 seconds. Another second was saved in the very end of the act, right before the boss: taking the upper route is 47 frames faster than going like Qwerty did. This was found and performed by feeuzz.

Flying Battery 1

The almost-instant zip in this run was found by DMTM. DMTM recorded a gmv for me, but he used Sonic 3 and Knuckles ROM. I asked him if he was sure that the input would sync on pure Sonic and Knuckles, and he said this: «And it will work 100% on Sonic & Knuckles.bin».
I was unable to setup the zip faster, but it does not really mean that the zip cannot be set up faster — it only means that I did not try it hard enough. However, I was able to improve DMTM’s time (which was already better than Qwerty’s) later, during the level. It was enough to make the result one in-game second faster. The gravity glitch in the end was abused to die faster, which is important for TASing the next act.

Flying Battery 2

I got 2 gmv files for this level before I started to TAS it: Qwerty’s one and DMTM’s one. The funny fact about them is that in Qwerty’s run the horizontal underflow happened earlier than in DMTM’s; while DMTM’s run itself was faster. I did not notice the reason at first, and instead, started to TAS it myself. I was right: I came to the point of horizontal underflow 32 frames faster than DMTM (quite a much for such a short level). Then I finally realized the main difference between DMTM’s and Qwerty’s runs: DMTM found a way to give the boss an extra hit before it goes below the ground. The method is pretty simple: jumping from spindashing state makes Knuckles’s hitbox higher just enough to be able to make the first hit earlier enough to be able to make the second hit before the boss becomes unreachable. However, the final time was still slower than expected (remember that I mentioned I was 32 frames ahead?). Despite all my attempts to investagate into the issue, I was unable to find the reason. However, my further attempts on improving the time made me sure that the reason is actually the difference between the games (S3&K and pure S&K). Anyway, the result is 1 in-game second faster than in Qwerty’s run, which is good enough.

Sandopolis 1

All the improvement comes from a faster route to the point of the zip, allowing to perform horizontal underflow more than a second faster. This trick was shown to me by marzojr, who learnt it from HDL (who also isn’t the trick’s inventor).
After the first act, I had to waste at least 244 frames for luck-manipulating the cylinder in the very beginning of the second act; there was no other way to get it out of my way. This could be avoided by saving some frames in earlier levels — just FYI.

Sandopolis 2

The door switches in this level are a bit cunning: depending on your Y-subpixel position, you may loose 1 frame on them, because you will need 1 frame longer jump to reach their top. Jumping off the slope in the very beginning can be done from 2 different points. First of them gives you shorter trajectory, the second results in a better speed. However, in both cases you come to the switch at exactly the same moment, so I jumped from the second point just in order to manipulate my Y subpixel position (which is important for the switch, as I explained before).
But just like in most of the other levels, the main part of improvement came from major route changes. I took a route more similar to the route used in the currently published Tails run. It’s not the first time I TAS this level, though — I made a just-for-fun Amy TAS of it, which is also very fast, despite being just-for-fun and hence easilly improveable.

Lava reef 1

This was certainly the hardest of all levels (even harder than Sandopolis 2), and I have absolutely no idea if I did it in a right way. But to be happy, I still did it faster than Qwerty.

Lava reef 2

A small improvement here coming from better precision. However, I think that the improvement could be advanced by performing horizontal underflow a few frames earlier: proper vertical position management could allow entering terrain to the left from the tube and zipping right to the tube. I succeeded to do it once, but it did not result in any gainings, because I made another mistake (forgot about camera X position management — the camera was too close to the left edge, and went longer way than needed).

Hidden Palace

Nothing special but holding L+R in the beginning of the level.

Sky Sanctuary

Surprise =P only 1 frame saved here. Despite the fact that Y-subpixel management can let hit the boss earlier, it’s completely useless.

Other comments

Suggested screenshot: frame 15544

Answerring the questions you may ask

Q: Why Sonic and Knuckles? Why not to TAS Sonic 3 and Knuckles, which includes the levels from Sonic and Knuckles?
A: Our goal was to make a submission, which could obsolete Qwerty’s TAS, as soon as possible. We may consider TASing the whole Sonic 3 and Knuckles in the close future, but there will be much more chance that we abandon our project.
Q: Is it really well optimized? When I was watching Qwerty’s run, I was deeply impressed and couldn’t even imagine that it can be improved that much
A: Well, Sonic the Hedgehog is not Super Mario Bros. The speed here is variable; you don’t have the handy «N-frame rule», which can «eat» your small mistakes; and the levels here have extremely complex layouts (exceptions are rare). If you look at the history of any Sonic TAS, you will notice that improvements of previous TASes of these games almost every time were very big. Obviously, it does not make *any* sense to classify Sonic TASes as «suboptimal» and «optimal» ones — it is not that kind of a game. Complexity of the game’s physics make the result dependant on consumed time, TASer’s experience and many other things. So, we are absolutely not sure that our run cannot be improved a lot as well. We were simply solving our task — proving Qwerty that next time he should consider TASing in a team.
Q: I want to improve your run. Can you guys give me some ideas?
A: deeper optimization may help to save frames in most of the levels; also we made almost no efforts to optimize non in-game time. There are also 2 levels in which the actual result is 1 frame worse than the expected (predicted) result, they are Sandopolis 1 and Flying Battery 2. The spindash before the high jump in Mushroom Hill 2 was useless — there was no significant difference in speed if I didn’t spindash (thanks to speed shoes). We are also still not sure that our routes are the best — Knuckles certainly needs deeper research. Finally, we may know a big shortcut in Sandopolis 2, but we are not sure (WST succeeded to perform it only once, and the gmv is lost).
Q: Where are the feeuzz’s comments?
A: Sadly, he wouldn’t like to write anything about the job he did.
Q: Is the number of rerecords true?
A: Yes, it should be close to.
Q: WST, aren’t you an Amy TASer? How are you Amy WIPs?
A: They are fine, but this stuff was more important, say hello to Qwerty.
Q: My question is not listed, wtf?
A: Just ask it. We will be glad to reply.

Thanks to

  • Aglar and marzojr for expert consultation
  • Qwerty for making the previous TAS
  • DMTM and S3Kglitches for glitch discoveries
  • LTRP and Joseph for the support
  • TheYogWog for his amazing ring attacks
  • AnS for patient waiting for our first submission for months
  • Spikestuff for the quick encode
  • Apple Bloom for her existence :3

Apologies for

  • Our English
  • TASing this instead of Sonic 3 and Knuckles
  • Hurry

Spikestuff: This is for that tuna!


Player (26)
Joined: 8/29/2011
Posts: 1206
Location: Amsterdam
WST wrote:
Okay. But I do not remove Qwerty, since this submission seems to have hurted him a bit. As I’ve said, this run was fully based on Qwerty’s run — actually, most of the time I had 2 running Gens instances, in one of which I had Qwerty’s TAS. The goal was not to discredit Qwerty, but to show him that next time he’d better not to hide his WIP — me, feeuzz, marzojr, Aglar, LTRP (and even DMTM) — all the other Sonic TASers could contribute at least by reviewing his run for probable improvements.
Welcome back! Don't let the world get you down!
Editor, Player (69)
Joined: 1/18/2008
Posts: 663
Mr_Sweed wrote:
I'm not a insane person IRL. I'm a helpful and curious of me. Like to help people. Not letting them to be angry on me. Please, WST. Bring this submission up again. :'( I begging you. This hurts alot. To hurt a nice guy with not mutch friends IRL to communicate with? I was really glad when you asked me in to join this train. Just when good things turns to greatness goes to sadness. Is it this you are treating your friends? Just putting dirt in there eyes?
Get a grip, child. This isn't about you. Besides, it's a fucking inputfile for a videogame. Why is there so much drama over who holds the controller? Holy shit.
Mr_Sweed wrote:
I'm sad now.
You've been sad for as long as you've been on the internet.
WST wrote:
I am ashame to see my name where the name of DMTM is present.
As anyone should be.
feos wrote:
What I see now is that WST is pissed by Mr_Sweed/DMTM's actions. What's so disturbing about them, he just asked for credits?
He begs for them. He says he invents everything. He wants attribution for pressing buttons on someone else's controller. Just a typical internet 13 year old, really. Sorry for contributing to drama.
true on twitch - lsnes windows builds 20230425 - the date this site is buried
WST
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Active player (490)
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Posts: 1697
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Mr_Sweed wrote:
WST. You did hurt me aswell. :(
Qwerty at least made his own TAS. From the beginning to the last hit at the final boss. And he consumed 43242 rerecords to make it. I can imagine how does it feel like, making only 15628 rerecords (not even all of which are mine) by paying nights without sleeping.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Joined: 11/29/2013
Posts: 1
As a long-time member of this forum, I feel that this arguing over what constitutes a TAS serves only to divide this wonderful forum. We should then operate with the pre-defined meaning of a TAS. -duke_bilgewater
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2655)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6449
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duke_bilgewater wrote:
As a long-time member of this forum, I feel that this arguing over what constitutes a TAS serves only to divide this wonderful forum. We should then operate with the pre-defined meaning of a TAS. -duke_bilgewater
It's pretty much 2 v "everyone".
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
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WST wrote:
Mr_Sweed wrote:
WST. You did hurt me aswell. :(
Qwerty at least made his own TAS. From the beginning to the last hit at the final boss. And he consumed 43242 rerecords to make it. I can imagine how does it feel like, making only 15628 rerecords (not even all of which are mine) by paying nights without sleeping.
Mr_Sweed wrote:
I'm truly sorry if it was like that!!! :'(
You don't seem sorry if you're seriously nitpicking on WST's statement that Qwerty was hurt to justify adding you back. >.>
WST
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Posts: 1697
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I’m blocking DMTM in my Skype, hopefully this time it will be forever. Because every time I let myself contact him again, it always makes me sorry about it.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Former player
Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 207
Location: Réunion (FR)
DMTM is so... Mr_Sweed. Really, I don't hate you that much DMTM, but it's true that you can really become odious sometimes, not for me (because you are often friendly with me, or almost) but for everyone else, and beleive me, I truly understand what they mean, I had myself already see how annoying you can be, and please, stop asking for credits.. Post your movies have your own wips and you will got your credits.
Qwerty6000 wrote:
Oke, I think i will stop TASing sonic games
* That wasn't our goal. We just would show you that instead of TASingg on your own (to be obsoleted in the week that follow), you could use lastest discoveries from the community and ask for help to be sure to got the fastest (current) movie. Even WST could beat your movie on his own, but he asked some help anyway, and this helped him a lot, more than you think (mainly when help come from very experienced TASers like Marzojr or Aglar...)
~ [I]feeuzz
WST
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Active player (490)
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Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Personally I expected that people in this topic would speak of glitches, strategies, possible improvements, places where we probably messed up and places which we made well, but the truth is that people here just shit bricks, and the only topic is DMTM.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 893
i had almost forgot how much drama could ensue from popular games, guys, there is no special meaning for "being a player", it won't open a new world for you or give you the key to illumination or something like this. in the TAS world, improvement is the key word, and the peoples behind those improvements are the variables, and to be honest, for me who improve what doesn't really matter, since when a new improvement comes, the name usualy change again. TASing takes a lot of time, a lot of knowledge, and a lot effort, but we all have to remember that what matters is why you make those efforts, is it just to get some EFame or is it to present how much we love exploring our games ? remember that the usual way we refer a tas is "did you see the new tas of that game" and not "did you see the new work of that guy ?" wst my advice there is to not take TASing too seriously, just take plaisure in it, don't do it for fame or "just to be published" since someone else will obselete it anyway.... oh and if someone really want to enter "the player world" there is a guy who appear sometime in front of the gold saucer who can get you a pass for some gils... OR a bunch of games who need a TAS or a bunch of TAS who need improvements... anyway, you guys did a really good job with this submition, yes vote canceled or not, and i hope i see some new improvement / work soon !
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2655)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6449
Location: The land down under.
Question: Can I take publishing back when this gets accepted? After getting it taken from me and all. Claim people. Claim
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
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Posts: 11493
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It's yours.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
WST
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Nicos wrote:
wst my advice there is to not take TASing too seriously, just take plaisure in it, don't do it for fame or "just to be published" since someone else will obselete it anyway....
Are you kidding? I have been a TASer for quite a long time, and if publishing really was the only thing I want, I would do it long time ago. Because I have many WIPs with Amy. I also have at least one finished project (made together with feeuzz as well). Did I ever submit it? I also have at least one recording which beats the results from currently published run, which means obsoleting someone also wasn’t my desire, if I wanted it, I would do it with JXQ’s run. Instead, I sent the gmv to Qwerty, who also has a WIP of this game, and now it’s up to him to decide what to do with it. And if he decides that one level is not enough to be a co-author, I will have absolutely nothing against it. But, again, DMTM did nothing to this run, being compared to me and feeuzz. And instead of complaining about being a victim of «bad WST», he’d better thank me for reference to him in the description. Once again, I still may cancel this submission. I did not expect this crap to happen! Be sure to read this: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=334972#334972 Just to ensure that it’s not about my bad character.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 893
sorry i think the meaning of my post got lost in the rephrasing... i mean't to say that you should simply enjoy tassing , nothing more, the efame part wasn't directed at you but act as a simple "general tips" i don't think you're a bad guy or anything, just don't let this story gets to you so personaly...
Former player
Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 207
Location: Réunion (FR)
We had always TAS "just for fun", we also got serious projects, but we stand more time TASing for fun, and this submission, wasn't to become famous or to write our name somewhere, it was just a kind of "lesson" for Qwerty, not to leave TASing, just to co-operate a bit more with the community.
~ [I]feeuzz
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Nicos wrote:
i mean't to say that you should simply enjoy tassing , nothing more
If everyone did enjoy tasing on their own, we'll never be able to have this site's content. So we MUST provide perfect conditions for people not just to TAS, but to submit and get published. And don't forget this. It deserves all the fame one can expect, it's just, the fame must be really deserved!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: I would like to state:
Joined: 10/11/2006
Posts: 76
Location: Göteborg/Sweden
I understand that I have angried some of you over some time. It has never been my intention to do so. I know I like to be credited, mayby a bit too much. Maybe I take this TAS-ing too serious, I guess that's why I want to be credited so bad... :( In this thread, I've seen the dislike from many and the talk about banning have made me realize I might be excluded from the community which I like so much. Maybe to much... Today I want to say sorry to all of you who might feel that I've hurt you. It was never my intentions to do so. I also, in order to continue to be part of this community, want to state that from now on, since TAS is what I love to do, that I'll be glad to exchange my experiences, glitches and help without any credit. I feel that my hunger for credit has put me in a position were I risk to never ever get back in "good standing" to you guys. Therefore, I will never ask for credit again, as long as I can continue to do what I like, TASing! Ofcourse, if someone wants to give me credit I appreciate it, but I will never ask for it, since the reason I once started with TAS is because it was fun, not for the credit, and TASing is what I want to continue doing. I also want to say that sometimes I might use words and phrases that sound harsh, hurting to someone. It is and has never been my intention to hurt someone, but english isn't my native language and sometimes I write too fast and dont't realize that the phrase could be offending. Sorry. I hope I can continue to be part of this community. My best regards Daniel/Mr_Sweed/DMTM
I'm not a speed runner, but a game lurker, that's my contribution to the scene. =)
Post subject: Re: I would like to state:
Active player (309)
Joined: 8/21/2012
Posts: 429
Location: France
Mr_Sweed wrote:
I understand that I have angried some of you over some time. It has never been my intention to do so. I know I like to be credited, mayby a bit too much. Maybe I take this TAS-ing too serious, I guess that's why I want to be credited so bad... :( In this thread, I've seen the dislike from many and the talk about banning have made me realize I might be excluded from the community which I like so much. Maybe to much... Today I want to say sorry to all of you who might feel that I've hurt you. It was never my intentions to do so. I also, in order to continue to be part of this community, want to state that from now on, since TAS is what I love to do, that I'll be glad to exchange my experiences, glitches and help without any credit. I feel that my hunger for credit has put me in a position were I risk to never ever get back in "good standing" to you guys. Therefore, I will never ask for credit again, as long as I can continue to do what I like, TASing! Ofcourse, if someone wants to give me credit I appreciate it, but I will never ask for it, since the reason I once started with TAS is because it was fun, not for the credit, and TASing is what I want to continue doing. I also want to say that sometimes I might use words and phrases that sound harsh, hurting to someone. It is and has never been my intention to hurt someone, but english isn't my native language and sometimes I write too fast and dont't realize that the phrase could be offending. Sorry. I hope I can continue to be part of this community. My best regards Daniel/Mr_Sweed/DMTM
If you're sincere (don't be offended, please, I just don't know you and can't judge ^^), then that's perfect. You can now use the energy you won't spend on asking for co-authorship on better ways to actually get credits: making your own project, solo or not, or contributing more in another project to make it 100% obvious that you deserve the credits, you won't need to ask for it.
Experienced player (589)
Joined: 2/5/2011
Posts: 1417
Location: France
DMTM is very kind. Believe him!
Current: Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD Paused: N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair) GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven) TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand
WST
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Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
got4n wrote:
DMTM is very kind. Believe him!
Did I ever deny his kindness in this thread? I denied only the fact that he made enough to be a co-author. got4n and DMTM, my suggestion to you would be simple. As you told me twice, you have an idea to improve this TAS. So, why not to co-operate ande make it? In this case he will certainly make much enough. And you will even get a chance to copy-paste my input without putting my name in the title. Don’t think me and feeuzz will not enjoy being obsoleted. In fact, we’ll even be glad that DMTM switches to the «right» way of getting some credits.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
letcreate123
He/Him
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Location: Chile
I VOTE YES! YES! OH MY GOD! (Who's that fricken guy who voted no anyways?)
WST
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LIMO wrote:
I VOTE YES! YES! OH MY GOD! (Who's that fricken guy who voted no anyways?)
I often vote «no» on movies which I feel I could improve. So my guess will be that the «no» vote could come from someone having that kind of a feeling.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Joined: 3/19/2012
Posts: 144
Location: CA
WST wrote:
DMTM’s praying for co-authorship (even through other people) makes me so tired that I will sooner quit the TAS world than listen to him :( Seriously, may I decide on my own who is in my team? May I TAS just to spend spare time and when I’m feeling lonely? Also…
[19:25:32] got4n: dude
[19:25:37] got4n: Daniel want to be in coauth :(
…
[19:26:11] WST: I am really tired from him
[19:26:20] got4n: If you wanna be like this
[19:26:21] got4n: i'm pretty sure
[19:26:26] got4n: he can beat your times =)
[19:26:33] WST: I do not care
…
[19:27:47] got4n: sorry to be that way, still your friend, no mean
[19:27:49] got4n: but you're bastard
[19:27:55] got4n: no offense
…
[19:31:31] got4n: i think we will soon improve it
[19:31:45] WST: Once again, I do not care
Guys, I hate pressure! My TAS was just for Qwerty, I let myself submit it only because it beats all of his times. Also, why Aglar, marzojr and Qwerty never list glitch discoverers as co-authors, but I should? I am asking this myself, but I do not understand. If you dislike my decision, just let me know here, and I may cancel my submission and give it to you. feeuzz will not mind. But do not expect any more TASes from me in this case.
DMTM is always like this. Asking for credits where it is not due whatsoever. Yes vote, anyhow.
If you want to see some of my TASes, http://www.youtube.com/ltrp300
WST
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Enough. Let’s stop this, guys. He apologies and probably going to make his own TAS next time. Thanks for all of your votes, btw, I didn’t even expect so positive feedback from you, guys :)
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Joined: 11/28/2013
Posts: 8
Location: Edinburg, Texas
Glad to see some sort of resolution reached. Bygones will be bygones. Hope everyone had a great weekend!