Yay, our first submission! Here is the result of our cooperative attempt of improving Qwerty’s recent TAS.

Game objectives

  • Emulator used: Gens 11b + camera hack + solidity viewer + hitbox display + Sonic TAS tools
  • Aims for in-game time instead of real-time
  • Heavy glitch abuse
  • Uses death to save time
  • Takes damage to save time
  • Ignores delays caused by bonus effects

Results

LevelNew in-game timeOld Qwerty’s timeFrames savedTASed by
Mushroom Hill 10:47.240:50.06162 (0:02.42)WST
Mushroom Hill 20:48.090:51.17188 (0:03.08)WST and feeuzz
Flying Battery 10:37.550:38.1318 (0:00.18)WST
Flying Battery 21:09.221:10.1351 (0:00.51)WST and feeuzz
Sandopolis 11:10.071:11.1164 (0:01.04)WST
Sandopolis 21:16.271:34.121065 (0:17.45)WST
Lava Reef 10:43:440:44.3753 (0:00.53)WST
Lava Reef 20:21.390:21.445 (0:00.05)WST
Hidden Palace0:08.040:08.128 (0:00.08)feeuzz
Sky Sanctuary0:57.070:57.081 (0:00.01)feeuzz
Total in-game savings: 1615 frames (0:26.55)
Third-party input parts:
  • DMTM in Flying Battery 1
  • Aglar in Mushroom Hill 2 and Sandopolis 2
  • marzojr in Sandopolis 1
  • TheYogWog in Mushroom Hill 1

Stage by stage comments by WST

Mushroom Hill 1

I began TASing this level, because I had a feeling that proper positionong can allow making a better out-loop jump and save some frames. I was right: it saved about 10 frames. This inspired me to turn my WIP into a serious project. I managed to save about one second by pure optimization when I came to the point where I changed the route. The route change helped to advance the improvement. The final time is 3 in-game seconds faster than in Qwerty’s TAS.

Mushroom Hill 2

Abusing the monitor between the acts to switch into running state, which I suggested in the submission’s discussion, was actually nearly useless. However, I managed to find improvements further. First, making a jump at proper point allowed me not to bounce off the first enemy, and enter the zip point faster (an important part of this maneur was done by Aglar). Second, Aglar pointed out that the 32 pixel wall further may be skipped by proper alignment (the wall ejection speed itself would be not enough for this trick, but it becomes slightly higher because of the slopes there). These two maneurs saved about 2 seconds. Another second was saved in the very end of the act, right before the boss: taking the upper route is 47 frames faster than going like Qwerty did. This was found and performed by feeuzz.

Flying Battery 1

The almost-instant zip in this run was found by DMTM. DMTM recorded a gmv for me, but he used Sonic 3 and Knuckles ROM. I asked him if he was sure that the input would sync on pure Sonic and Knuckles, and he said this: «And it will work 100% on Sonic & Knuckles.bin».
I was unable to setup the zip faster, but it does not really mean that the zip cannot be set up faster — it only means that I did not try it hard enough. However, I was able to improve DMTM’s time (which was already better than Qwerty’s) later, during the level. It was enough to make the result one in-game second faster. The gravity glitch in the end was abused to die faster, which is important for TASing the next act.

Flying Battery 2

I got 2 gmv files for this level before I started to TAS it: Qwerty’s one and DMTM’s one. The funny fact about them is that in Qwerty’s run the horizontal underflow happened earlier than in DMTM’s; while DMTM’s run itself was faster. I did not notice the reason at first, and instead, started to TAS it myself. I was right: I came to the point of horizontal underflow 32 frames faster than DMTM (quite a much for such a short level). Then I finally realized the main difference between DMTM’s and Qwerty’s runs: DMTM found a way to give the boss an extra hit before it goes below the ground. The method is pretty simple: jumping from spindashing state makes Knuckles’s hitbox higher just enough to be able to make the first hit earlier enough to be able to make the second hit before the boss becomes unreachable. However, the final time was still slower than expected (remember that I mentioned I was 32 frames ahead?). Despite all my attempts to investagate into the issue, I was unable to find the reason. However, my further attempts on improving the time made me sure that the reason is actually the difference between the games (S3&K and pure S&K). Anyway, the result is 1 in-game second faster than in Qwerty’s run, which is good enough.

Sandopolis 1

All the improvement comes from a faster route to the point of the zip, allowing to perform horizontal underflow more than a second faster. This trick was shown to me by marzojr, who learnt it from HDL (who also isn’t the trick’s inventor).
After the first act, I had to waste at least 244 frames for luck-manipulating the cylinder in the very beginning of the second act; there was no other way to get it out of my way. This could be avoided by saving some frames in earlier levels — just FYI.

Sandopolis 2

The door switches in this level are a bit cunning: depending on your Y-subpixel position, you may loose 1 frame on them, because you will need 1 frame longer jump to reach their top. Jumping off the slope in the very beginning can be done from 2 different points. First of them gives you shorter trajectory, the second results in a better speed. However, in both cases you come to the switch at exactly the same moment, so I jumped from the second point just in order to manipulate my Y subpixel position (which is important for the switch, as I explained before).
But just like in most of the other levels, the main part of improvement came from major route changes. I took a route more similar to the route used in the currently published Tails run. It’s not the first time I TAS this level, though — I made a just-for-fun Amy TAS of it, which is also very fast, despite being just-for-fun and hence easilly improveable.

Lava reef 1

This was certainly the hardest of all levels (even harder than Sandopolis 2), and I have absolutely no idea if I did it in a right way. But to be happy, I still did it faster than Qwerty.

Lava reef 2

A small improvement here coming from better precision. However, I think that the improvement could be advanced by performing horizontal underflow a few frames earlier: proper vertical position management could allow entering terrain to the left from the tube and zipping right to the tube. I succeeded to do it once, but it did not result in any gainings, because I made another mistake (forgot about camera X position management — the camera was too close to the left edge, and went longer way than needed).

Hidden Palace

Nothing special but holding L+R in the beginning of the level.

Sky Sanctuary

Surprise =P only 1 frame saved here. Despite the fact that Y-subpixel management can let hit the boss earlier, it’s completely useless.

Other comments

Suggested screenshot: frame 15544

Answerring the questions you may ask

Q: Why Sonic and Knuckles? Why not to TAS Sonic 3 and Knuckles, which includes the levels from Sonic and Knuckles?
A: Our goal was to make a submission, which could obsolete Qwerty’s TAS, as soon as possible. We may consider TASing the whole Sonic 3 and Knuckles in the close future, but there will be much more chance that we abandon our project.
Q: Is it really well optimized? When I was watching Qwerty’s run, I was deeply impressed and couldn’t even imagine that it can be improved that much
A: Well, Sonic the Hedgehog is not Super Mario Bros. The speed here is variable; you don’t have the handy «N-frame rule», which can «eat» your small mistakes; and the levels here have extremely complex layouts (exceptions are rare). If you look at the history of any Sonic TAS, you will notice that improvements of previous TASes of these games almost every time were very big. Obviously, it does not make *any* sense to classify Sonic TASes as «suboptimal» and «optimal» ones — it is not that kind of a game. Complexity of the game’s physics make the result dependant on consumed time, TASer’s experience and many other things. So, we are absolutely not sure that our run cannot be improved a lot as well. We were simply solving our task — proving Qwerty that next time he should consider TASing in a team.
Q: I want to improve your run. Can you guys give me some ideas?
A: deeper optimization may help to save frames in most of the levels; also we made almost no efforts to optimize non in-game time. There are also 2 levels in which the actual result is 1 frame worse than the expected (predicted) result, they are Sandopolis 1 and Flying Battery 2. The spindash before the high jump in Mushroom Hill 2 was useless — there was no significant difference in speed if I didn’t spindash (thanks to speed shoes). We are also still not sure that our routes are the best — Knuckles certainly needs deeper research. Finally, we may know a big shortcut in Sandopolis 2, but we are not sure (WST succeeded to perform it only once, and the gmv is lost).
Q: Where are the feeuzz’s comments?
A: Sadly, he wouldn’t like to write anything about the job he did.
Q: Is the number of rerecords true?
A: Yes, it should be close to.
Q: WST, aren’t you an Amy TASer? How are you Amy WIPs?
A: They are fine, but this stuff was more important, say hello to Qwerty.
Q: My question is not listed, wtf?
A: Just ask it. We will be glad to reply.

Thanks to

  • Aglar and marzojr for expert consultation
  • Qwerty for making the previous TAS
  • DMTM and S3Kglitches for glitch discoveries
  • LTRP and Joseph for the support
  • TheYogWog for his amazing ring attacks
  • AnS for patient waiting for our first submission for months
  • Spikestuff for the quick encode
  • Apple Bloom for her existence :3

Apologies for

  • Our English
  • TASing this instead of Sonic 3 and Knuckles
  • Hurry

Spikestuff: This is for that tuna!

TASVideoAgent
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Encode: Link to video Calling for Publishing now. But I don't know camhack. DMTM Doesn't call or look up he just freaking takes it.
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Sir_VG
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Nice noticeable improvements. Yes.
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
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Amazing job! I absolutely have to vote yes.
Previous TASes: Frogger's Adventures: The Rescue Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door any% x 8 Paper Mario 64 Luigi's Mansion Sonic Heroes - Team Sonic Mario Kart Wii ILs
WST
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DMTM’s praying for co-authorship (even through other people) makes me so tired that I will sooner quit the TAS world than listen to him :( Seriously, may I decide on my own who is in my team? May I TAS just to spend spare time and when I’m feeling lonely? Also…
[19:25:32] got4n: dude
[19:25:37] got4n: Daniel want to be in coauth :(
…
[19:26:11] WST: I am really tired from him
[19:26:20] got4n: If you wanna be like this
[19:26:21] got4n: i'm pretty sure
[19:26:26] got4n: he can beat your times =)
[19:26:33] WST: I do not care
…
[19:27:47] got4n: sorry to be that way, still your friend, no mean
[19:27:49] got4n: but you're bastard
[19:27:55] got4n: no offense
…
[19:31:31] got4n: i think we will soon improve it
[19:31:45] WST: Once again, I do not care
Guys, I hate pressure! My TAS was just for Qwerty, I let myself submit it only because it beats all of his times. Also, why Aglar, marzojr and Qwerty never list glitch discoverers as co-authors, but I should? I am asking this myself, but I do not understand. If you dislike my decision, just let me know here, and I may cancel my submission and give it to you. feeuzz will not mind. But do not expect any more TASes from me in this case.
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Oh wow.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I joined this site just to post in this thread. If that person had nothing to do with the TAS, obviously they shouldn't be listed. In no way is he a co author. Stick to your guns. Listing glitch discoverers always seemed like a courtesy thing, at least for me. Sort of an FYI. I figure when a glitch is discovered it gets added to the collective pool of knowledge about the game at hand and thus can be drawn from by anyone. All my opinion though. Excellent, excellent run!
WST
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It’s not actually as excellent as you may think. As I’ve said, it’s purpose is showing how improveable is Qwerty’s TAS. I would not make my first submission if not that (maybe even never). Because I am idealistic and prefer not to present the results to the public until they are perfectly polished. But when Qwerty’s submission appeared, the only question I asked myself, was: «why can’t I?»? But just for reference, all of my Amy projects are optimized better than this. And I was not going to submit them. And the situation around this run makes me realize that this run shouldn’t be submitted as well. How if I do not want to underrate DMTM’s contribution, but at the same time I’ll not accept my own presense in the title if DMTM is there? From the other hand, if I list him, then I also have to list S3Kglitches, marzojr, Aglar, upthorn, Qwerty — everyone who contributed his experience into the common knowledge. But does it really make any sense? Maybe I also have to add SprintGod, who discovered that the perfect spin dash consists of 6 revs? Just imagine how many times I used his input in this run! When Tee-N-Tee obsoleted Aglar and marzojr’s TAS, some of the levels were not improved. Do you know what does it mean? It means that the key input in those levels remained the same. And what marzojr and Aglar had against it? I don’t really know, but I beleive that they didn’t even notice that fact! Finally, I am not hiding who made the contributions. Read the submission message and you will find all proper references. So, I am not kidding — let me know — and this run is yours. I’ve understood that it was a mistake to submit this. My wish to become a player, seeing how Qwerty did it with ease, made me to forget about all those complicated copyright issues of this community.
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Oke, I think i will stop TASing sonic games
WST
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+1 I will not stop, but I will not mean them to be submitted. I’ve finally found myself in another hobby — electronics, which is not less fun, and doesn’t result in such situations.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
WST
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Okay I agree now. I added DMTM to the credits line; I also add Qwerty, because this TAS is completely based on his work, and mostly uses his route. So just let’s consider this being what Qwerty’s first TAS should have been. P.S.: I really apologize if I hurt someone. I never mean something wrong to someone by TASing. Again, it is just a hobby — way of wasting time. And it’s a pity to realize that your hobby disturbs someone. I wish site admins and judges to understand my position and not blame me for my editions of the submission.
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WST wrote:
Okay I agree now. I added DMTM to the credits line; I also add Qwerty, because this TAS is completely based on his work, and mostly uses his route. So just let’s consider this being what Qwerty’s first TAS should have been.
BTW can you change my author real name in LLA, that looks much better
WST
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Qwerty6000 wrote:
BTW can you change my author real name in LLA, that looks much better
Done, friend
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WST wrote:
DMTM’s praying for co-authorship (even through other people) makes me so tired that I will sooner quit the TAS world than listen to him :( Seriously, may I decide on my own who is in my team? May I TAS just to spend spare time and when I’m feeling lonely?
I don't even do this shit and I completely agree with you. The guy is an attention whore loser. WST, don't apologize. The kid claims far more credit than he has ever deserved.
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Okay I agree now. I added DMTM to the credits line; I also add Qwerty, because this TAS is completely based on his work, and mostly uses his route. So just let’s consider this being what Qwerty’s first TAS should have been.
Why? Which part of the input file did he contributed? If discovering glitches alone warrents co-author ship, then shouldn't runs like SM64 would have like x3 more co-authors listed??
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jlun2 wrote:
Why? Which part of the input file did he contributed? If discovering glitches alone warrents co-author ship, then shouldn't runs like SM64 would have like x3 more co-authors listed??
To be honest, the zip setup in Flying Battery 1 really contains his input. The rest of the level is mine. That’s explained in the submission text, by the way. Personally I don’t like to insult DMTM, I simply do not realize why every time when there is a Sonic TAS on the bench, he comes in claiming that his contribution is underrated? This happens not only to my projects — marzojr and Aglar also suffer from this a bit. I changed my mind and now I do not disagree if he’s listed, but… you guys know the story. If so, just let Qwerty also be listed, because his contribution into the existence of this run is more significant (his run was a good reference, and improving is usually easier than TASing from scratch — because you know what results you should reach at worst)
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I don't think having made the previous TAS alone is enough to be listed as a co-author. But it is enough to be listed in 'Special thanks' if it inspired/motivated you to make your TAS :) Similarly, finding or demonstrating a glitch is definitely worthy of 'Special thanks' and being given credit for the glitch wherever it is listed on TAS description or game resource page, but unless you added input to the TAS or did routing/advice/testing for the TAS I don't think you should be listed as co-author. (But I do think getting attribution for glitches and tricks you discover is your right - glitchhunters deserve thanks from all of us) That is, there is a difference between co-authorship and merely inspiring/laying the groundwork for the run to exist. They are both useful and awesome, but one is one and the other is the other. Not being listed as a co-author doesn't mean you did nothing, it's just a categorization of specific kinds of contribution of which there are many. @WST: You don't need to apologize when other people get mad at you if it is unprovoked by you. 'Trying to appease everyone will end up with no one being appeased'. Definitely try to explain conflicts, misunderstandings and misgivings (because problems that can be resolved easily should be resolved easily) but there's no sense in taking blame for things you didn't do :)
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WST
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Sorry I am not a psychologist, I am just a tool assisting speedrunner
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WST is a nice guy! I own you mutch, WST! Thanks!!!
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I can understand maybe adding Qwerty, since a small part of his original input is still in the run. But if DMTM just made glitch discoveries, and none of his input is in the run, he should not be listed as a co-author, no matter how much he pesters you to add him. This is your run; yours and feeuzz's, and no one can take that away from you.
WST
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CoolKirby wrote:
I can understand maybe adding Qwerty, since a small part of his original input is still in the run. But if DMTM just made glitch discoveries, and none of his input is in the run, he should not be listed as a co-author, no matter how much he pesters you to add him. This is your run; yours and feeuzz's, and no one can take that away from you.
Once again; I agree, let’s consider this the solution that satisfies everyone; okay? I just want to go to bed without feeling that I infringe someone’s rights, and if you accept these new credits, it will help me to ger over that feeling.
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WST wrote:
Once again; I agree, let’s consider this the solution that satisfies everyone; okay? I just want to go to bed without feeling that I infringe someone’s rights, and if you accept these new credits, it will help me to ger over that feeling.
Infringing someone's rights? Didn't a discussion like this happened before?
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It is my view that only input authors or people who made MAJOR contributions in other ways should be listed. Even then, not all of those people should make the cut. If someone TASed less than half a level, give them a shoutout, nothing more. Well, onto the run itself. Many skill. Very entertainment. Wow. Keep gunning for that Sandopolis 2 shortcut! If it was done once, it can definitely be done again.
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I agree with Fishaman P: the amount of input from DMTM used is about the same size as that of input from me used, but you don't see me bullying WST for including my name as a co-author, nor do you see me making other people do that. In fact, I explicitly declined it, as I felt my contribution was too small. DMTM should really get a grip. Other than that, the run is fantastic, and shows why people should work in teams to TAS this game: it is too easy to miss opportunities for optimization otherwise. I would have preferred the full-game(S3&K) TAS, but this fulfills all its intended goals.
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marzojr wrote:
I agree with Fishaman P: the amount of input from DMTM used is about the same size as that of input from me used, but you don't see me bullying WST for including my name as a co-author, nor do you see me making other people do that. In fact, I explicitly declined it, as I felt my contribution was too small. DMTM should really get a grip.
*Stands up* *Claps*
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