Topic by adelikat

Posted: 2/13/2006 4:28 PM

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3584)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4738
Location: Tennessee

wow, excellent job so far :) I'll look at your test run more closely and hopefully will have some intelligent feedback for you.

It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects

Posted: 2/13/2006 7:45 PM

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Mart

Former player

Joined: 10/12/2004
Posts: 19
Location: Montreal beach, baby!

Excellent run, for a test run. Here are my few thoughts: - One way to get money would be to kill of the Evil Clown that is held captive in Mindenhall. Staves of Thunder sell for quite a lot. If you plan to use power cycles in your polished run, you may want to abuse it so you can get even more money from Staves. But that would require a detour to Mindenhall, which would waste time on the current route... - Golden Card is a MUST, since you can easily manipulate to get it. Its 25% discount is going to help a lot if you wish to go with your Light Sword strategy. - A good time-saver would be to get the princess to level 10 for her to learn Defence. It works wonders on Malroth, and it would definitely shorten that battle. I don't know if the time saved from the battle would be greater than the time it takes to take the princess to level 10, though...

Karma can be vengeful, don't screw around wit it!

Posted: 2/13/2006 10:13 PM

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TheAxeMan

Ambassador, Experienced player (696)

Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE

Thanks for the comments Mart, I had forgotten how much the golden card would save. In order to be worth it, it has to reduce the number of wizard rings I need. At 25% it will cut two wizard rings, which is nice. Before the discount, the total gold I need is about 20,000 for a broad sword to beat the gremlins in Lianport (1500,) the Jailor's Key (2000,) the light sword (16000) and some wings of the wyvern. The golden card discount cuts this down to 15,000, which I can get with an iron helmet and seven wizard rings. Unfortunately I have to shoot down the Staff of Thunder idea. Besides the trip to Midenhall and dealing with the damage squares, getting the Staff of Thunder would require the silver key, which I don't need otherwise. I had considered the Dragon Potion which can be obtained from metal babbles, but it would be pretty far out of my way to fight one of them before going to Wellgarth. Getting the defence spell is tempting, but I'm skeptical that it would be worthwhile. It would take 12,000 experience and I'd have to keep the Princess alive. This would mean at least 7 or 8 metal babbles, even if I let the princess tag along in the other mandatory battles. Of course this would also give me surround so I wouldn't need the light sword. A good reason to do another test run, I'll see just how nasty Malroth will be at an even lower level. Defence maxes out at some point, -100%, I think. So the most I can expect is to cut the battle time in half. Edit: By the way, on the topic of name and stats, one FAQ lists stats for each character for each levelup. It matches what I got, so I believe the stats are hardcoded in this game. Your name has no effect on it. So because this run will be so long, I think it's fine to personalize the hero's name.

Posted: 2/21/2006 12:18 AM

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TheAxeMan

Ambassador, Experienced player (696)

Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE

Ok, here's my second attempt at this. Instead of keeping the princess alive for her magic I buy the light sword and use that to get the surround effect on Atlas and Malroth. In fact, I beat the game without ever casting a spell! However, at 51:02 this is only slightly faster which can be explained by other optimizations here and there. If you watch you can tell why it is slower: seven lottery spins just takes too much time. So now I'm pretty sure that it will be better to develop a plan which has the princess alive until Malroth. I'll use her magic to speed up battles. I will still be using death as shortcut quite a few times, so I'll probably pick up the leaf of the world tree and might work in the Rhone shrine too. Since I have to keep the princess alive, Erdrick's armor looks less attractive, I might skip it. There are more possibilities to speed this up so I bet I can get under 50 mins. http://home.comcast.net/~f_amoroso/DragonWarrior2-TheAxeManv0.3.fcm Edit: Ooh, I forgot about the dragon potion, which becomes much more useful when the princess needs to stay alive! Basically, it will have the same effect as dying without actually dying (I save my game and reset, when I load it up I am at the last town I saved at.) Having the princess alive more will speed up battles as sleep and infernos will be useful, particularly fighting four gremlins. I think this time around I will go for defence magic, which requires killing six metal babbles in addition to the required fights of the game. An optimization here could be finding fights with multiple metal babbles. Also, I will skip Erdrick's armor and use two trips for the Rhone cave. This trades off going through Beran to the cave entrance a second time with the advantage of not needing to save in Rhone, so I'll teleport all the way back to Beran at the end. updated outline: --Start off the same as before, but will re-examine wings usage. Only need two lottery tickets which will both yield wizard rings (one to sell, one to use.) --After getting Princess, keep her alive. Fight a metal slime in Dragon Horn as before, get an iron helm. --Sell helm and one wizard ring, buy broad sword (this will be hero's weapon until near the end.) Beat gremlins for ship. --Sail around to collect items, may get the leaf this time though. --Warp back to Hamlin as before. Then I'll need to figure out if I want to die on the ozwargs or not. If I use the death trick as before this could be where I use the leaf. The princess must survive this somehow. --Climb star crest tower, beat gremlins for crest. Go to Beran as before. --Go to Tuhn for the watergate, then do moon tower. Here is the first place I can fight metal babbles, and I will beat at least one for a dragon potion. --After getting the moon fragment, use dragon potion to save, then reset. Continue game in Beran. --Sea volcano cave. Another spot for metal babbles, and I believe this is the best place to see groups of two or three of them. Since I used the dragon potion, the princess will be alive to get the exp. --Deal with evil clowns and get eye of malroth. Use dragon potion again to get back to Beran without dying. --Go to Rhone cave, get life crest. Two options to get out I need to test: use dragon potion again, or just walk out and use wings. --Get final crest and charm of Rubiss. Wings back to Beran. --Back into the cave, go clear to Rhone. On the way, fight a green dragon for the sword of destruction. --In Rhone, go straight to Hargon's castle. Tear through all the bosses. Beat Atlas either with surround or use a leaf to bring back the prince to take one for the team. On beating Zarlox the hero will be at level 14 and princess 10. Use surround and defence on Malroth. --Use wings and end up outside of Beran. Sail to Midenhall through Zahan as before to finish.

Posted: 2/24/2006 8:04 AM

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Mart

Former player

Joined: 10/12/2004
Posts: 19
Location: Montreal beach, baby!

TheAxeMan wrote:

Also, I will skip Erdrick's armor and use two trips for the Rhone cave.

Would getting the armor really be that much of a waste of time on your second trip in the cave, compared to the numerous times you'll need to heal when walking on damage tiles in Hargon's Castle? Keep in mind you'll have to heal two guys, if you don't go for the armor... I don't remember the maps by heart, so I can't really tell if it's worth it or not... Plus, when you'll be in Hargon's castle, you could do the following: let the princess die on the first floor's damage tiles, and revive her with a leaf as soon as you get in the tower. That's gonna save you the trouble of healing her for the time being. The only healing you'll have to do afterwards is when reaching Hargon. I could be wrong, but even with the detour, the armor would save quite some time...

Karma can be vengeful, don't screw around wit it!

Posted: 2/26/2006 5:58 PM

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TheAxeMan

Ambassador, Experienced player (696)

Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE

Mart wrote:

let the princess die on the first floor's damage tiles, and revive her with a leaf as soon as you get in the tower.

Ah, this is a point I have been considering, and it's a pretty complex calculation. Here are some variables: The electric fence-looking squares take off 30 hp. The diagonal lines take off 15 hp. Swamp is only 2 hp. To get to the Rhone cave, I have to cross three fence squares and some swamp. In the beginning of Hargon's castle, I need to cross five 15hp and five 30hp squares. Just before Hargon there are seven 15hp squares. I need to figure out the exact frame amounts, but it's about 2.5 seconds to cast healmore or use the wizard ring. Erdrick's armor is 50 seconds out of the way and only protects the hero. But wait, there are more complications. The princess doesn't have to step on all of them because she is last in the lineup and as soon as the first person steps on the stair the party enters the next area. This cuts out two 30hp squares from the Rhone entrance and one 15hp square on Hargon's castle. Another thing to consider is that I want the princess alive for all the end bosses to get experience--they are worth a lot. It takes at least 20 seconds to manipulate and kill a metal babble, so that is important. Also, in my current version I am planning on leveling up a bit more, so I'll have over 60 hp with my hero. So no, Erdrick's armor isn't worth it under this plan. My current thinking is that the best place to use the leaf is after dying on the ozwargs. I'll keep her alive after that.

Posted: 2/26/2006 6:02 PM

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3584)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4738
Location: Tennessee

another factor, though much smaller: damage animation takes longer (at least in DW4), so every damage tile stepped on without the erdricks armor will cost some frames

It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects

Posted: 2/26/2006 10:08 PM

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TheAxeMan

Ambassador, Experienced player (696)

Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE

In my last post I wrote:

My current thinking is that the best place to use the leaf is after dying on the ozwargs. I'll keep her alive after that.

Well, I was wrong. At first glance, dying looks better, but with all things considered, it looks like the ozwarg death glitch just isn't worthwhile. Some time is taken to levelup, but it doesn't affect the level I'll finish on, so I can ignore that time. A big factor in this is how much the sleep spell speeds up fights. There's no animation and no manipulation pause because it's very easy to get them to sleep and keep sleeping. I'm working on the four gremlin fight now and expecting to get a nice little timesavings. In fact, I'm wondering if it's worthwhile to bother with the leaf at all. Even when I sail right by the world tree, I lose about 5 seconds to pick it up. Then another 2-3 to use it. One more thing to consider. The animation time for the damage squares might be a factor I should consider. It's 16 frames/square and of course it only happens when I have one or more living characters stepping on a damage square. I left it out because I don't think it's going to be enough to make a difference though. Oh, I did find another method to manipulate enemy groups. When walking around, everything seems to happen in 16 frame increments, so I can only re-randomize once every 16 frames. But by doing something with the submenu I can delay when I cancel out of that with a granularity of one frame. I don't think it will actually cut wait times by 16x, but it should help. Edit: Wait, it doesn't take that long to pick up the leaf. It may still be useful. I've abandoned the plan to levelup enough for defence magic. The fight and levelup time will add up to more than the entire Malroth fight (2-3 minutes) so no matter how much it helps it's just not worth it. Also, I just don't have enough control over enemy groups to get the fights I need without long manipulation pauses. The trick I mentioned before doesn't actually help that much. I'm almost done with the current run, but I can't yet say how it will compare. I had some bad luck with enemy stats and critical hits, which didn't help either.

Posted: 3/3/2006 6:01 PM

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TheAxeMan

Ambassador, Experienced player (696)

Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE

http://home.comcast.net/~f_amoroso/DragonWarrior2-TheAxeManv0.4.fcm Ok, completed this run which finally takes me under 50 minutes! I made several strategic changes and haven't figured out the impact of all of them. However, I'm certain I can improve even more on this and get under 49 minutes. One change would be reaching Malroth on level 13 instead of 12. I don't need much more experience and this will let me do 8-9 damage a hit vs 5-6. Since Malroth has about 250 hp and I can't crit this is a pretty big difference. The difference would be worth doing an extra fight, but I had the idea of letting the ozwargs call in two more buddies. This would also give the princess inferno magic for the four gremlin battle, speeding it up a bit. One of the more confusing things I do is use the dragon potion instead of dying once I have the princess. This way I can keep her alive and get the same effect as dying. I need to look at this a bit more, but I'm pretty sure it was better to take two trips into Rhone. The reason is that I don't need to save in Rhone, so I can warp straight to Beran after beating Malroth, saving about 20 seconds. Still to check is whether or not I should get Erdrick's armor. The time needed to get it drops slightly if I get it in the first trip through the Rhone cave. If I can dodge Atlas' attack then the princess can stay down all the way from the beginning of Hargon's castle to the final battle. Even better, I might be able to work it out to avoid needing a wizard ring, which saves quite a bit of time in the lottery.

Posted: 3/3/2006 8:45 PM

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ledauphinbenoit

Joined: 8/29/2005
Posts: 148
Location: Dayton, OH

It seems to me that if Malroth could be manipulated without the use of Surround, then getting Erdrick's armor and killing off the princess would be faster. Since you can kill all but the last boss with 2 criticals, the princess is just casting healmore and then surround.

Posted: 3/4/2006 9:14 AM

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TheAxeMan

Ambassador, Experienced player (696)

Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE

ledauphinbenoit wrote:

It seems to me that if Malroth could be manipulated without the use of Surround, then getting Erdrick's armor and killing off the princess would be faster.

I definitely agree with this, but I think that even if it is possible to beat Malroth without surround, it might add so much manipulation time that it's not worth it. One possibility is to always have the hero attack first. The timing of the fight command would control damage and Malroth's action, which would lock him into an attack. Then there would be a separate manipulation to dodge. When Malroth attacks first, the first timing controls his action, whether he misses and much damage. Then with the second timing I can go for more damage on my attack. Anyway, it's definitely possible, but I think it's more significant to beat Atlas solo. After checking a bit more, I believe this is possible, which is a big step. I have been experimenting with a few things, one of them being running from the required battles. You can, in fact, run from a few of these and as far as I can tell it does no good at all. When you run from the gremlins in Lianport, the battle basically just starts up again. If you run from the Ozwargs in Hamlin they are still there, blocking you from getting the crest. When you run from the four gremlins in the lighthouse tower, they disappear, but you don't get the crest. Finally and most interestingly, you can run from the saber lion battle in Osterfair, but when you talk to the king for the crest, he tells you "Thou art a poor excuse for a warrior. Get thee gone!" My next run will be for a submission, I think I have it all figured out. I've made up a spreadsheet to calculate gold, experience and some other stats to plan things out just right. The main thing was working out the fights to reach the end with my hero on level 13 and the princess on 6. I plan on picking up Erdrick's armor, which will add about 47 seconds. The princess will die earlier and the hero will solo all the final bosses up to Malroth. Then the princess will come back to life, cast surround and die. The upside is that I will save tons of time due to not having to heal for the damage squares (about 1:30). However, I will have to get past Atlas solo, which may or may not be tough. Another big advantage is that I will not need a wizard ring--I think I can get by just on the princess's original 28 mp. This saves about 25 seconds on the lottery, though I'll still need to play once for something to sell. So if everything works out, I think I can cut out another minute, maybe more.

Posted: 3/6/2006 8:36 PM

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Spider-Waffle

Banned User

Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049

Does anyone think they could take a look at TMNT to figure out how the technodrome location is established?

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."

Posted: 3/7/2006 4:37 AM

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TheAxeMan

Ambassador, Experienced player (696)

Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE

Wrong thread, dude. Even on the NES there were many ways to randomize. Perhaps you could experiment with doing different things on the level before or before going into the sewers or before going into the door. Although once you've started the level it seems to be fixed, so I would start by beating Mouser slower or taking an extra hit or something. Good luck.

Posted: 3/7/2006 9:05 PM

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kolechovski

Joined: 1/13/2006
Posts: 109

"When you run from the gremlins in Lianport, the battle basically just starts up again." -How exactly does this happen? Do you even leave the battle screen? Or does the conversation repeat, plunging you back into battle? When you run from the lighthouse gremlines, do they return when you reenter the tower, or are they gone forever? When you disgrace yourself in front of the king, is there any way to get him to offer another chance at the tiger?

Life is like a box of chocolates-when you want peanut butter, all you get is coconut.

Posted: 3/7/2006 10:27 PM

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TheAxeMan

Ambassador, Experienced player (696)

Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE

For the Hamlin fight, when you run it goes back to the town, with everyone in the exact same positions as when you started. Then the girl repeats her line, "Evil has come!" and the battle restarts. I hope that the lighthouse gremlins don't disappear forever and the king of Osterfair gives you another chance, because you can't beat the game otherwise! I bet in both of these cases you can leave the tower/castle and go back for it, though I haven't tried this. If you use an fcm from one of my runs you can check yourself pretty easily. By the way, I am working on the final run and am about 40 seconds ahead when I reach the Dragon's Horn.

Posted: 3/7/2006 11:19 PM

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kolechovski

Joined: 1/13/2006
Posts: 109

Keep up the good work. If you have any fcms of the bugs, feel free to post them. All my DW2 saves are from Nesticle, so I don't have a decent way of quickly reproducing these.

Life is like a box of chocolates-when you want peanut butter, all you get is coconut.

Posted: 3/8/2006 1:24 AM

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Spider-Waffle

Banned User

Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049

I know it's the dragon warrior thread but there's people like acliam I was hopping might see my post. I really need to know how the code works like acliam did for dragon warrior.

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."

Posted: 3/17/2006 6:58 AM

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TheAxeMan

Ambassador, Experienced player (696)

Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE

Back on topic, I've learned about a new glitch involving equipment and stats. Apparently, the attack and defense stats only change when you use the equip command or when you get a levelup. So they do not immediately change when you throw away or sell the weapon or armor you had equipped. Unfortunately, I don't think this is useful for the run, at least not with any of my plans. In fact, it actually hurts because it makes it more difficult for me to kill the hero off. But it's not too bad and I'm pretty certain that it's much better to simply manipulate more damage than to bother with the equip screen, since it takes about 200 frames minimum. This would be useful if I didn't have to worry about levels because I could buy the broadsword, equip it and then turn around and sell it, saving a good amount of gold. However, I need the power for quite a few fights across many levelups so it won't work. Also, I've learned the memory addresses for monsters in the current battle. The first one is 0693 and the next is 069A. This is very useful as it will allow me to manipulate lower enemy hp. I am about 30 minutes into the run now and I'm hopeful that I can finish under 48 minutes.

Posted: 2/24/2009 4:27 AM

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Whelkman

Joined: 7/7/2007
Posts: 161

Dragon Warrior II selects companion names based upon the player's naming of the Prince of Midenhall. The algorithm is similar to that used in the original to generate stats and growth with the notable exception of carry bugs. I posted a full analysis at the following locations: http://www.honestgamers.com/systems/guide.php?guide_id=5290 http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/nes/file/587248/55791 For the shortest names, there are two choices: S = Bran,Roz W = Lars,Roz

Posted: 2/24/2009 10:12 AM

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Dwedit

He/Him

Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 692
Location: Chicago

Random tip for non TASers: The equipment stats bug allows you to equip cursed weapons/armor in Fake Midenhall (Hargon's Castle) with no penalties, you keep the stat bonuses, and they're not equipped after you leave the area or use the Charm of Rubiss.

Posted: 5/31/2010 11:22 PM

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FionordeQuester

Joined: 3/20/2010
Posts: 126

Has anyone figured out any of the formulas to this game? I checked the topic, and the most promising thing I found was the "dehacked link", but it won't work for me.

Posted: 6/1/2010 2:18 AM

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OmegaFlareX

Joined: 7/20/2004
Posts: 108

Wow, I honestly don't even remember posting this or attempting a run. 2005 was a pretty hellish year for me, that's probably why. Glad someone saw it through to completion eventually.

Posted: 6/1/2010 3:36 AM

Post subject: I need to know.

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FionordeQuester

Joined: 3/20/2010
Posts: 126

Which names can the hero choose that makes Midenhall be named Esgar/Glynn and Moonbrooke Varia/ Elani?

Posted: 6/2/2010 4:06 AM

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ledauphinbenoit

Joined: 8/29/2005
Posts: 148
Location: Dayton, OH

I think you mean Cannock, and the guide you are looking for is here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/nes/587248-dragon-warrior-ii/faqs/55791

Posted: 6/2/2010 7:53 PM

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FionordeQuester

Joined: 3/20/2010
Posts: 126

That one requires you to have a hexidecimal calculator, which doesn't work for me. Anyways, I already found the name I wanted. In any case, if you guys find out anything about the mechanics, please tell me, ok?