Post subject: Half-Life (segmented scripts 20:41)
Patashu
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Link to video Very beautiful movement - very hard work by the runners. Worth watching if you're curious about perfect Half-Life movement :) This is basically what your TAS would be. 60/120 fps encodes are available: http://hl21.xtreme-jumps.eu/ http://dl.dwahmov.tv/hl21/ http://defrag.sockenbuegeln.de/data/video/movie/half-life/ List of glitches/techs in Half-Life 1 speedrunning (most of which probably got used!): http://wiki.sourceruns.org/wiki/Category:Half-Life_1
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Awesome!
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The On A Rail crate boost had my jaw on the floor. Suffice to say, the hype is real.
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FINNALY!!!! I looked forward to it for 1,5 years!!!
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They're now advertising a commentary live stream, Monday 14th 20:00 CEST twitch.tv/dabigbooi if you're interested. I won't be able to tune in at that time, but damn I bet it'll be interesting.
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Man, that movement is...nauseating. Insanely fast.
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Please put this up on the TASVideos news feed. Because that is where it belongs. It essentially uses "rerecords" blurring deconstructing the line between a TAS and a segmented speedrun. Be careful to not compare the "segment count" to the "rerecord count". - The segment count is 317. - If every segment was attempted one thousand times (which is not an unreasonable estimate), the "rerecord count" for the run would be 317000. That is exactly what it looks like. A very well executed TAS. One of the best runs ever. Thank you!
Post subject: Re: Half-Life (segmented scripts 20:41)
YaLTeR
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Patashu wrote:
This is basically what your TAS would be.
Oh no, a TAS would be like that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwZ9fcbcHzQ. A realtime run like HL21 is much smoother and more pleasing to watch.
Post subject: Re: Half-Life (segmented scripts 20:41)
Patashu
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YaLTeR wrote:
Patashu wrote:
This is basically what your TAS would be.
Oh no, a TAS would be like that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwZ9fcbcHzQ. A realtime run like HL21 is much smoother and more pleasing to watch.
Oh wow... That is something XD Gordon Freeman has turned into a being of pure vibrational energy.
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Note: The 20:41 Half-Life Speedrun is, in fact "tool-assisted". It uses multiple frame-perfect scripts. Granted, large portions of the run are apparently played at real-time (for very short segments), but that just means they didn't have as many tools at their disposal as we've come to expect. You really can't compare this run to a run without scripts.
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YaLTeR
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Weatherton wrote:
Note: The 20:41 Half-Life Speedrun is, in fact "tool-assisted". It uses multiple frame-perfect scripts. Granted, large portions of the run are apparently played at real-time (for very short segments), but that just means they didn't have as many tools at their disposal as we've come to expect. You really can't compare this run to a run without scripts.
That's why there is a separate category in Half-Life speedrunning - Scriptless.
Patashu
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In particular, this is the scriptless single segment WR by coolkid (who also did some of the segments in Half-Life 21 as you may have noticed ;) ): Link to video
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
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Oh, I've thought this is the TAS already. Well, a TAS would be wildly different than this. The fastest way to increase your movement speed is air strafing rapidly. I couldn't calculate the "golden ratio" between number of air strafes and the degree change depending on actual movement speed, but solely this trick would save a lot of time. An easy way to understand this is that the maximum speed Gordon can go is probably ~edit4: much more than2000units/speed, while the "running" speed is around ~400unit/speed (don't trust me, I played HL ages ago). The TAS would aim to pass each door with that maximum speed. Also when "hitting a door", a (standup) countjump should be used for fastest speed recovery (ducking for 1 frame, making a 180 degree turn with correct turning speed and jumping once touching the land). Oh and I don't even mention FPS_MAX trickeries. btw, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtI5HM7GVGY#t=48 -> hitting the wall or it's just the map transition? around ~4:30, in theory, wallsliding gives a very slight boost while strafing there, but it's very hard to pull it off in real time and probably a TAS could make better strafes than falling on wall. I know it's a TAS once someone able to pull objects while boosting off it infinitely, same way as in ~4:44. At ~7:48, a wall bug would be better (90 degree facing towrads a wall, forward and duck). Next scene why not jump on scientist and barney head? Also I would watch a multiplayer speedrun, where players boosts through walls in narrow areas, so one player can advance scripts/entities/transitions while the other one can go to the next part, but people should argue about playing single player with multiple players. edit: tripmine can't be used to boost through walls? probably an NPC who can jump is required to do that like Barney. edit2: or snarks? edit3: "jumpbugs: 14"? I admin I didn't watched it fully, but was there actually a jumpbug (jumping down to a platform while ducking,release duck and jump when 2~4 units above the floor)? I saw mostly edgebugs (falling no a slope wall to avoid taking damage and saving horizontal speed) and "slow wallbugs" (jumping between 2 walls closing in 45 degree) edit4: http://wiki.sourceruns.org/wiki doesn't contains wallbug which would save time (I wrote it for 7:48 in this post). http://wiki.sourceruns.org/wiki/Sharking depends on sv_airaccelerate and another variable (sv_airmove?), so it's different between games http://wiki.sourceruns.org/wiki/Object_Boosting totally right, the game reduces velocity if it reaches more than 4000, so if you maintain it 3999.999, you can stay on that value.
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This video makes me once again realize how bad 30 fps videos really are.
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YaLTeR
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
An easy way to understand this is that the maximum speed Gordon can go is probably ~edit4: much more than2000units/speed, while the "running" speed is around ~400unit/speed (don't trust me, I played HL ages ago).
Maximum straight running velocity is 320 - default value of sv_maxspeed, and the player can go up to 2000 ups (units per second) - default value of sv_maxvelocity - in each direction (x / y), that makes 2828 ups the highest velocity if travelling diagonally at an angle of 45 degrees.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
btw, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtI5HM7GVGY#t=48 -> hitting the wall or it's just the map transition?
A special trick that required going back to the previous map and re-entering the current one - hence the stop.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
around ~4:30, in theory, wallsliding gives a very slight boost while strafing there, but it's very hard to pull it off in real time and probably a TAS could make better strafes than falling on wall.
Perfect wallstrafing is a little bit slower than perfect air/groundstrafing.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
I know it's a TAS once someone able to pull objects while boosting off it infinitely, same way as in ~4:44.
That was done with a +use spam script.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
At ~7:48, a wall bug would be better (90 degree facing towrads a wall, forward and duck). Next scene why not jump on scientist and barney head?
This is a cutscene (until the tentacles die and the black brush covering the hole disappears), so speed is not very important in this part.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
edit3: "jumpbugs: 14"? I admin I didn't watched it fully, but was there actually a jumpbug (jumping down to a platform while ducking,release duck and jump when 2~4 units above the floor)? I saw mostly edgebugs (falling no a slope wall to avoid taking damage and saving horizontal speed) and "slow wallbugs" (jumping between 2 walls closing in 45 degree)
Example: 6:02.
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Oh, I've thought this is the TAS already.
Well, maybe it is not the TAS, but I think it is a TAS. I think it is also a segmented speedrun. There is no absolute definition.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
I know it's a TAS once someone able to...
I think the tricks that are used in the run do not determine whether it is a TAS or not.
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Look forward to watching this. I agree with Aqfaq. The first runs that really made me wonder the difference between segmented speedruns and TAS is hl2dq and groobo's Diablo segmented run.
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Thanks for the answers/corrections YaLTeR! I forgot to say that you guys rocks (HL speedrunning made me to join TASVideos, and I totally forget you are working on new improvements) =) I can't test the bunnymod now, but did you guys used the in-game wireframe commands for out of bounds (sky swimming etc) routes? As soon as I can TAS this game (not the TAS-life), I will go back to KZ and pwn everyone with perfect strafes
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CoolKid and Quadrazid's commentary of the run can now be found in twitch archive at: http://www.twitch.tv/dabigbooi/c/4067025
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YaLTeR wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
I know it's a TAS once someone able to pull objects while boosting off it infinitely, same way as in ~4:44.
That was done with a +use spam script.
It's semantics but the scripts used are "tools" that are "assisting" you in providing precise input. If I were to use a script to automatically execute mini-turbos in Mario Kart 64 and then also use a save state every three seconds, I'd be making a tool-assisted speedrun. There are other tools I could use (and, in fact, I'm using all of the tools I have access to on my kart 64 TAS) but once you're using any tools at all it is, by definition, "tool-assisted". Maybe certain scripts are generally accepted by a speedrunning community, but that is clearly a slippery slope. Taken to its logical conclusion, a completed TAS is just a really extensive script. I found the run entertaining and impressive, but knowing how the run was created made my response closer to that of a published TAS here than of a standard speedrun.
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Post subject: More Semantics
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Weatherton wrote:
Taken to its logical conclusion, a completed TAS is just a really extensive script.
Also: Ordinary speedruns are actually live console verifications of sloppy TASes that have zero rerecords and are played on 100% emulation speed in real-time. With this type of TASing, the player is usually not even saving the input pattern for later use. Also: If "console verification" means verifying TASes with consoles, then "TAS verification" must mean verifying consoles with TASes.
Post subject: Re: More Semantics
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Weatherton wrote:
Taken to its logical conclusion, a completed TAS is just a really extensive script.
Well..... I highly doubt that's always the case, since unless you can somehow automate glitch finding and creative use of said glitches, chances are, a completed TAS won't be 100% scripted/botted.
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Weatherton wrote:
YaLTeR wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
I know it's a TAS once someone able to pull objects while boosting off it infinitely, same way as in ~4:44.
That was done with a +use spam script.
It's semantics but the scripts used are "tools" that are "assisting" you in providing precise input. If I were to use a script to automatically execute mini-turbos in Mario Kart 64 and then also use a save state every three seconds, I'd be making a tool-assisted speedrun. There are other tools I could use (and, in fact, I'm using all of the tools I have access to on my kart 64 TAS) but once you're using any tools at all it is, by definition, "tool-assisted". Maybe certain scripts are generally accepted by a speedrunning community, but that is clearly a slippery slope. Taken to its logical conclusion, a completed TAS is just a really extensive script. I found the run entertaining and impressive, but knowing how the run was created made my response closer to that of a published TAS here than of a standard speedrun.
It's not that certain kinds of scripts are "generally accepted", it's that this run is a scripted run. It's still mostly human input in a real-time for lengthy periods of time, which is what differentiates it from a TAS. That said, SDA doesn't accept scripted runs because they're not entirely human input, and TASvideos wouldn't accept this run because it doesn't use frame-by-frame inputs and savestates/rerecords, so it's clear that this is a different category entirely. It's the same thing with most of the runs done by Sourceruns, except the portal runs. Scripts are used to assist in optimizing the run, but we still do everything in real-time. The exceptions are the portal runs where we don't use scripts at all (no point really, all the ground in that game is flat and it's easy enough to use mousewheel to ABH).
Post subject: Re: More Semantics
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jlun2 wrote:
Weatherton wrote:
Taken to its logical conclusion, a completed TAS is just a really extensive script.
Well..... I highly doubt that's always the case, since unless you can somehow automate glitch finding and creative use of said glitches, chances are, a completed TAS won't be 100% scripted/botted.
By "script" I meant "a series of button presses for a set of activities which can be replayed as game input." I wasn't talking about using a bot to make a run.
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Link to video I think it's a real TAS. It's 11,88 faster than quadrazid's TAS!
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