Submission Text Full Submission Page
This is a TAS of Duke Nukem 3D for SEGA Genesis on the hardest difficulty and on this difficulty the game is really hard! However, the game is hard itself and I'm not astonished that 3D Realms spent about (~) 25 minutes on each map!

Game objectives

  • Emulator used: Gens-rerecording 11A
  • Take damage to save the time
  • Hardest difficulty
  • Manipulation of "friendly" monsters

Tricks:

The game is insomuch simple and hard that I have found only one trick! There is no necessity in RAM Watch to manipulate the highest damage: all dameges are constant!
  • Manipulation of "friendly" monsters:
There are situations when monsters at once shoot in Duke when they cognize him, but if they cognize him some frames before or later, they actually walk up to 3 seconds! I didn't use it all the time, only if necessity!

Main game explanations:

As most of us don't know this virtuoso port, I'll explain the working of game mechanics:
  • Enemies are not an obstacle for player. He can actually go through them!
  • Enemies can't hit the player if he runs aside (probably they don't take the anticipation)!
  • Enemies can't hit each other, only drone's blow up (At least I saw that laser had flown through the Pig Cop).
  • Switches and doors can be opened/switched only if player looks straightly at them!
  • There is no damage manipulation, so during the rocket's or drone's blow up (splash) you or take full damage or don't take any!

Map explanations:

  • Map 1 - Spaceport (2:23):
It was hard to avoid from monsters lasers! In the end I took 3 shots to pass the map faster.
  • Map 2 - The Incubator (2:23):
Enemies were badly placed in the room and I needed to kill some! I repassed this map for 2 times, but after some practice and changing route, I managed to do the best! I needed the medkit anyway to take damage in some places on the next maps.
  • Map 3 - Secret Laser (2:33):
Was difficult only the first room with 2 blow-up drones and Pig Cop (shotgunner).
  • Map 4 - Lunar Space (2:56):
Hoping on the best, I tried to teleport in open space without spacesuit, but my health went down very fast =) The control in space is very hard: you move even when you turn! I'd like to play in pacifist while waiting for lift in some rooms, but I had lost my temper on that!
  • Map 5 - Occupied Territory (2:58):
A problem with dodging the bullets, but in my mind this map is the best!
  • Map 6 - Mortal Prison (1:47):
It doesn't seem to be! I decided not to turn often, the route is great! Oh yeah, intentional killing in TAS. As I needed my health for the next map, I just couldn't save fat commander's life: he damaged me twice while I was entering the card and I lost about 80 HP!
  • Map 7 - Fatal Wind (2:42):
The wind wasn't fatal in the room with the blue card, but it would be good if it was turned off! I spent about 100 rerecords on the first room to take minimum damage! Another medkit was taken to stay alife. (Description will be supplemented now!)
  • Map 8 - Electric Station (4:01)
In spite on maps hardship, I repasses it for 2 times on finding the way to bypass the lighting after I took the blue card! Most players take double damage from it because they try to bypass the lighting and their speed is not fast enough! In general, the map is interesing.
  • Map 9 - Overlord (2:08):
The music says right: it's as easy as the first map! The map has lots of unnecessary areas: everyone can become interested what is that teleport on the floor upper! The difficulty was killing battlelord without taking damage from brains.

Noxxa: Judging.
Noxxa: This run is shown to be suboptimal in multiple areas. Even just the opening menu is improvable by nearly a full second. Rejecting for optimization issues.


TASVideoAgent
They/Them
Moderator
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 15585
Location: 127.0.0.1
This topic is for the purpose of discussing #4285: Dimon12321's Genesis Duke Nukem 3D in 24:12.95
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1223
Location: Romania
Note: during the discussion, please don't compare the game to Doom, Wolfenstein 3D etc because I have already explained the working of game mechanics, but if you know sth else, write please! For those who interested: Don't try to run away in Lunar Space! The "room" is small and invisible walls are next to teleports!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2643)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6441
Location: The land down under.
*Looks at input* Button mashing... *Looks at final input* Blank input for 139 frames. Right I'm just going to guess the minimum input isn't optimal enough. Others can decide on this one too. I have looked at Stage 1 and 2. Movement looks okay, can be cleaned up here... there. Refraining from voting until clarification from others. Edit: Brazil is the game version it's not actually meant to be part of the title... "It was released only in Brazil, by local Sega distributor Tec Toy." Edit 2: Stage Times Spaceport: 2:23 The Incubator: 2:23 Secret Laser: 2:33 Lunar Space: 2:56 Occupied Territory: 2:58 Mortal Prison: 1:47 Fatal Wind: 2:42 Electric Station: 4:01 Overlord: 2:08 (waiting around) - 1:17 (Mashing Start)
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1223
Location: Romania
Spikestuff wrote:
*Looks at input* Button mashing... *Looks at final input* Blank input for 139 frames. Right I'm just going to guess the minimum input isn't optimal enough. Others can decide on this one too. I have looked at Stage 1 and 2. Movement looks okay, can be cleaned up here... there. Refraining from voting until clarification from others. Edit: Brazil is the game version it's not actually meant to be part of the title... "It was released only in Brazil, by local Sega distributor Tec Toy."
Example of game version and name is: USA Mega Man 2 =) Hah! Forgot to tell about the control: the weapons can be changed only in one way and changing weapons slow down Duke!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1223
Location: Romania
Spikestuff wrote:
Edit: Brazil is the game version it's not actually meant to be part of the title... "It was released only in Brazil, by local Sega distributor Tec Toy." Edit 2: Stage Times Spaceport: 2:23 The Incubator: 2:23 Secret Laser: 2:33 Lunar Space: 2:56 Occupied Territory: 2:58 Mortal Prison: 1:47 Fatal Wind: 2:42 Electric Station: 4:01 Overlord: 2:08 (waiting around) - 1:17 (Mashing Start)
Done!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Post subject: Concerns about version choice
mklip2001
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
Dimon12321, I have not watched this run yet, but I am interested in it. Does this have similar stages to the run on the N64 version? I know the run on the N64 version is on Easy difficulty to reduce lag, but even without that benefit, it also seems much glitchier and faster than what you're describing. Do the tricks from that run work in this version of the game? Also, one comment: you do not need to end every sentence with !. A period is fine for most sentences, unless you are excited.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Editor
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris
This is definitely NOT the N64 version or the PC version. This version does use assets from the PC version, but not the level designs/structure. That being said, this port looks OK. It's not great but it's not bad. I will watch this later.
When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war. The Prince doth arrive he doth please.
Joined: 8/2/2011
Posts: 39
horrendous port
ars4326
He/Him
Experienced player (778)
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
When I first saw the submission title, I thought that it had to of been a typo and be for the Sega 32X, instead. But after checking out the link Spikestuff provided, I've got to say that - like SNES Doom - I'm genuinely impressed with how the developers were able to squeeze so much output out of the Sega Genesis (the music, however, being a different story). Dimon, this effort looked a lot tighter (more optimized) than Doom 64. Movement looked pretty good, and I didn't immediately notice any wasted time standing around or fighting unnecessary foes. Like Spikestuff pointed out, I am concerned with the 139 frames of blank input at the very end. Can it be quickly corrected, and resubmitted? Otherwise, I gave a 'Yes' vote. I hope you continue to improve and submit more FPS runs in the future!
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2643)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6441
Location: The land down under.
Yea no. I'm very close to voting No unless you do something. Reason: Fix up the last level. The final boss dies at around frame: 86399 (~23:59.97 TAS time) Your input drags to: 87065 (24:12.95 TAS time) I was trying to splice the input down and I got it to the correct frame... The issue is you had 6hp left and I died.... not your fault on that one just that you didn't think on how to finish input early (which is fine). Update the final level in your TAS and use THIS and link the url to here so we know that you have fixed it up and saved the TAS time. For those wondering: The extra input was running around and walking to the final boss and booting him in the head. When he was dead for some time.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4043
Spikestuff: The TASer gets to decide if they want their TAS to be measured on 'power on to input end' or 'power on to the game is subjectively complete'. Dimon clearly chose the latter :)
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2643)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6441
Location: The land down under.
Patashu wrote:
'power on to the game is subjectively complete'. Dimon clearly chose the latter :)
In other words: That means his input isn't complete.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2643)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6441
Location: The land down under.
Spikestuff wrote:
*Looks at input* Button mashing... Right I'm just going to guess the minimum input isn't optimal enough.
Yuuuuuup Link to video Edit: I'm not going to bother figuring out the waiting times after finishing a level. Edit 2: Something happened at the end, I don't know why but the times are: Correct Input: 12.07 (725 frames) Dimon's Input: 13.03 (783 frames) Edit 3: Video is correct now. Edit 4: Okay maybe not. YouTube is being a little butt.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1223
Location: Romania
ars4326 wrote:
When I first saw the submission title, I thought that it had to of been a typo and be for the Sega 32X, instead. But after checking out the link Spikestuff provided, I've got to say that - like SNES Doom - I'm genuinely impressed with how the developers were able to squeeze so much output out of the Sega Genesis (the music, however, being a different story). Dimon, this effort looked a lot tighter (more optimized) than Doom 64. Movement looked pretty good, and I didn't immediately notice any wasted time standing around or fighting unnecessary foes. Like Spikestuff pointed out, I am concerned with the 139 frames of blank input at the very end. Can it be quickly corrected, and resubmitted? Otherwise, I gave a 'Yes' vote. I hope you continue to improve and submit more FPS runs in the future!
Thank you for watching my Doom 64 run: that was my first run what I made for TA Speedrunning, not Superplaying like my other, but Ukrainian proverb says: ' The first pancake is always lumpy!' what actually happened in my first run! In this game, I TASed every map very carefully and of course this movie actually has much more chances to get published!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
I know nothing about this game nor the techniques used in this run, but it just looks very unoptimized. The absolutely shortest paths are not taken, the runner stops for significant fractions of a second at many places for no apparent reason (although this might be related to enemy manipulation, but I have the slight suspicion it isn't) and so on. Also Spikestuff's video above shows that even starting the game is highly unoptimized. I get the feeling that this is more like somewhat-quick tool-assisted playthrough rather than a highly-optimized speedrun that cuts every unnecessary frame.
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1223
Location: Romania
Warp wrote:
I know nothing about this game nor the techniques used in this run, but it just looks very unoptimized. The absolutely shortest paths are not taken, the runner stops for significant fractions of a second at many places for no apparent reason (although this might be related to enemy manipulation, but I have the slight suspicion it isn't) and so on. Also Spikestuff's video above shows that even starting the game is highly unoptimized. I get the feeling that this is more like somewhat-quick tool-assisted playthrough rather than a highly-optimized speedrun that cuts every unnecessary frame.
I don't know! Look at my input: I was pressing keys all the time so why I was late??? If I stopped for some times, means I needed to do that! I've already written that changing weapons slow down Duke if you for that!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2643)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6441
Location: The land down under.
Warp wrote:
looks very unoptimized.
Now to make you feel more concerned: Rerecord Count: 3917 Someone has mentioned the game on a different port. Less time and well: 14174 Rerecords Also Dimon I'm actually concerned about your Rerecord Count. Your last one you made was 7371 and it was a time of 41 minutes As Tompa once said: Save the frames. Which means spend more time optimizing each and every frame. Also this game has a very high lag input count. By "input" count I mean that you can continue to walk at the same speed without any fps drop (eg of fps drop GBA CNK).
Dimon12321 wrote:
I was pressing keys all the time so why I was late?
This is very concerning not knowing a way around an emulator. In Gens Options > General Where it says "Movie" Check: "Show frame counter", "Show lag frame count" and "Show Input" This is why I was able to do a faster input at the start compared to you because I was watching the lag frames.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1223
Location: Romania
Spikestuff wrote:
Warp wrote:
looks very unoptimized.
Now to make you feel more concerned: Rerecord Count: 3917 Someone has mentioned the game on a different port. Less time and well: 14174 Rerecords
Compare both ports! AKA used lots of tricks in 3D space and there more levels in N64!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1113)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Dimon12321 wrote:
What are lag frames? I usually see this counting up when the game shows SEGA logo and sth like that!
Frames when the game makes effectively no progress because of having too much to do. Obviously, usually best avoided if one wants fastest times, as each is likely one more frame in total movie length.
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1223
Location: Romania
Spikestuff wrote:
Patashu wrote:
'power on to the game is subjectively complete'. Dimon clearly chose the latter :)
In other words: That means his input isn't complete.
Usually, the TAS's input ends when the ending appears, so I decided to make like that! Here is a movie: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/14222395735471290 Of course it doesn't end after killing the boss, I needed to hide!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Skilled player (1741)
Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4981
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"
You should probably post WIPs (Work in Progress) files at the forums, since based on the comments it doesn't seem it was optimized.
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2643)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6441
Location: The land down under.
Dimon's mini fix at the end. An update only at the end. There is still the issue at the start I'm afraid. On-top of that, what Warp said is true. Overlord: 2:08/1:17 2:03/1:12 If we're going off your userfile right now: frame 86402 is the final input not frame 86426.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
If it's possible to save 10 seconds with 26 rerecords, it doesn't tell anything good about optimality.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1223
Location: Romania
jlun2 wrote:
You should probably post WIPs (Work in Progress) files at the forums, since based on the comments it doesn't seem it was optimized.
Thank you for comfort, but there was not many answers on my topic about the game! Nobody is interested in it! It's not Super Mario where almost everyone is his fun!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
Dimon12321
He/Him
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (596)
Joined: 4/5/2014
Posts: 1223
Location: Romania
Spikestuff wrote:
Dimon's mini fix at the end. An update only at the end. There is still the issue at the start I'm afraid. On-top of that, what Warp said is true. Overlord: 2:08/1:17 2:03/1:12 If we're going off your userfile right now: frame 86402 is the final input not frame 86426.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/download/14227357868245944 OMG! Even final input takes lots of time!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.