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Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
No I haven't checked every time, though I've done random tests occasionally. I've only held -> for 5 frames (or 10 etc) at a time though, so it shouldn't have caused any slowdown. On the other hand, that's exactly what it did in Misty Isle at first, so it's of course possible it has in other levels too. As far as I can tell it's been going well so far though.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
JXQ
Experienced player (750)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
Fabian wrote:
I'm not sure how narrow that last passage is, i.e. if it's possible to fly or not. The solution I came up with when I first thought about it some time ago was to throw the P-switch down there and jump off it. I'm not sure if that's possible either though. Do you have any suggestions for that part? Maybe take a detour and fetch the key, which I could jump on/grab like you do, only sideways.
I think you talking about the passage lined with spikes where you are "supposed" to ride that moving platform. Both of your ideas sound like good ones. Jumping off a P-switch is possible, and key-jumping sideways is most likely possible (although I never had thought of trying it). There determining factor as to which idea is faster will be if you can hit the P-switch early and get the key, and also make it to the bottom before the P-switch runs out of time. If this is possible, this would probably be faster, because running through the wall to the right when it has turned into coins (directly above the key) is faster than running to the left because you are towards the right side of the screen anyway. When keyjumping sideways, I would guess that it's fastest to float towards the right holding Y, dropping the key (by holding down and letting go of Y on the same frame) but still holding B to float, and your speed should catch up with the key once it lands on the ground. One jump should do it, you can almost make it through there just by floating. You'll also have to time the jump to avoid one of those swinging spiked balls, but that shouldn't be a big problem. If the P-switch does run out, the same idea can work with jumping off the P-switch. Either way it's going to look impressive when it's done.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 6/6/2005
Posts: 124
P-switch jumping will be cutting it close but I bet it can be done. Good luck with that. Oh, and jxq: no, you're not the problem, I am. ;)
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
It was actually possible to get through without any help from P-switches or keys, if you ducked. It was extremely close though. Wether this is faster than any other method remains to be seen. No work on the run tonight.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
JXQ
Experienced player (750)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
I've improved the 15-exit run and submitted it here: http://tasvideos.org/806S.html Enjoy everybody!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 6/6/2005
Posts: 124
Awesome, jxq, watching now. edit: Watched. As I said in the submission thread, this is amazingly better. Especially backdoor star world. Bowser's star world goes without saying.
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
Backdoor Star World was very very awesome. Great improvements overall! Edit: A question about Bowser's Star World: If you for some reason lose all your running speed on the lava transportation thing, is it still possible to reach flying speed later? Or is the running just to preserve the speed you gained at the beginning of the level? Hope that made sense.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
I tried to get the shell from Desert Secret but I'm not happy with the way I did it. From the frame Mario appears to the first fadeout 254 frames passes. Can someone make it faster?
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
JXQ
Experienced player (750)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
Fabian wrote:
If you for some reason lose all your running speed on the lava transportation thing, is it still possible to reach flying speed later?
Nope.
Fabian wrote:
Is the running just to preserve the speed you gained at the beginning of the level?
Yep. Also I will try Desert Secret now. Be back in a bit. EDIT: I got it in 246 frames, if I measured right. SMV is here. Unless I'm missing something big, I don't think this can be done faster. Does this mean you are doing the pyramid without firepower? Or haven't you tested yet. Also, about the pyramid spiked place, it may be entirely possible to fly down the whole damn thing, although you still might have to jump off a p-switch or key, because diving down part of it may make the updraft too strong for the last narrow passage.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Shouldn't you loop back now and do the rest of the desert levels before the pyramid? Doing the pyramid next means you need more moves extra to get back to the levels you have skipped.
JXQ
Experienced player (750)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
I think that's what he's doing. I asked about the pyramid because with a shell in reserve this early for Castle #2, you can't use firepower in the pyramid, and it's still up in the air if it's faster to use firepower or not (unless Fabian has done some testing). I also remember that you cannot walk left from the pyramid to the mushroom house until you walk from the mushroom house to the pyramid first, so I thought I'd drop that knowledge in case you were planning on using a route that needed it. EDIT: I forgot to mention earlier - it's possible to gain air faster if you don't have much space below you. Normally it takes 11 frames of holding backwards to catch air, but you can also catch it in 6 frames by pressing backwards every other frame three times. Could help in small passages. Hmm, maybe this should be added to the SMW tricks page...
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 6/6/2005
Posts: 124
Yeah, that's a good tip. The every-other-frame glitch seems to work in all sorts of places in SMW.
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
Yes jxq, that's a great tip. I've had all sorts of trouble with very precise flying manouvers in various places, now I can try it out again where it hasn't worked. For example in Desert World 4, when you fly "under" the entire level, I don't think it's possible to avoid flying under the goal post at the end as it is. I made a non-optimized demo of it about a week ago which you can download here Not sure if this new trick might help or not. When I get to that level I'll try not to fly under the very last blocks, I haven't tried if it's doable yet. I redid the Desert Secret now, 227 frames. I don't feel very enthusiastic about tackling Desert World 2 again, but here I come. I'll probably have to try harder at the lift passage this time, because the way I did it you bump into a wall afterwards (which is why I kicked the key and regrabbed it, it caused me to lose forward velocity) but now I have no key and it's more important to remain flying. We'll see if it's improvable. Edit: Everything went very smoothly, Desert World 2a is finished now. Hopefully doing 3 and 4 tomorrow, they should be very easy.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Joined: 9/6/2005
Posts: 9
Location: France
I am a bit lazy so I didn't read the entire topic, but I think every body is now talking about an 100% completion of Super Demo World. I must say I am really waiting to see it because this game is quite hard and a complete speedrun could act as a walkthrough too :p, and also because I really enjoy speedruns (particularly games involving mario :) ) Good luck dude :D
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
Thanks for the nice words KeiOh, I'll try my best :) I've finished Desert World 3 and 4 now. The new flying technique is absolutely great, it's given me a lot more freedom with what I can do while flying. And best of all, if you press -> every other frame for 10 frames (the swoop animation quickly glitch) and then press <- every other frame for 10 frames, Mario gains altitude faster than if just holding <- for the usual 11 frames. Because of this discovery I didn't have to fly under the goal at the end of Desert World 4, as I did in my demo. This way is about 80 frames faster, I didn't measure exactly. Also, it only takes 3 frames to catch air; press <-, wait one frame, then press <- again. The only downside is this can't be done the very first frame that "normal" flying would be possible, Mario must "float" one extra frame. I doubt this will ever make any difference though. Now it's time for the Desert Pyramid, secret exit. It's a shame that you didn't optimize flying speed when you did your demonstration of it jxq, because then we could have just hex-edited it in my run (with your permission of course). I haven't figured out anything I'll do different from yours, so it will look basically the same. Small edit: I realized now that the "new" kamikaze dive might allow me to skip the walljump you do. I'll try it out.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
JXQ
Experienced player (750)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
Just tested, and I lose a total of 7 frames in that pyramid run I did from flying. If you'd like to hex-edit it, it's fine with me, although it's definitely improvable even more than flying. Room 5 - It may be faster to land on the ground and run some instead of floating all the way to the pipe, I'm not sure. Room 6 - Probably is faster to kick the P-switch left immediately after coming out of the pipe, and landing on it there, so that you can dive all the way down the long shaft. Also, in my run, for some reason, I made it a priority to not set off the raising platform (probably thought I was going to need it on the way back, heh). Anyway, it's probably faster to land on it and run off of it at the first frame to have some forward momentum. Room 7 - Flying seemed fastest to me at the time, so I didn't even test kicking the key, using the chain to jump, and then keyjumping up to the pipe. It also may be possible to kick and re-grab items during flight in some spots (Rooms 3 & 8).
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
Thanks for all the suggestions jxq. I started on it earlier today, couldn't avoid the walljump but I somehow saved 2 frames there. Screwed up in room 2 so I'm redoing the rest later, I didn't get very far anyway.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Joined: 6/6/2005
Posts: 124
I'm sorry I have nothing real to contribute... I feel like the stickler in the mud right now. =\
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
I've done some more on the Desert Pyramid. Latest smv can be found Here. I hope you like it. So far (up to room 5) it's 27 frames faster than jxq's demonstration. 7 frames in room 1, 4 frames in room 2, 11 frames in room 3, 5 frames in room 4 and no frames in room 5. I'm not sure if I lost any time compared to yours while taking the key, so I might change that later. I tried to keyjump up (land on key, jump and grab, next frame throw key up, and later try another keyjump in midair to reach upper platform) but unfortunately the key gains too much downward velocity so it's impossible to both jump and grab the second time. Too bad because it would have looked very cool I think.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
JXQ
Experienced player (750)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
First of all, awesome progress. I'm very impressed with your precision, especially the improvements in the pyramid. And also jumping off the key when first grabbing it was a nice idea and looks cool, even if it didn't work out all the way. Watching your run, I think there is one other trick you might not know - hopping to keep your speed. When you stop flying by letting go of Y or by sliding into the ground (I haven't tested diving), you can time your jumps perfectly (meaning jump on the first available frame) and keep the same speed you would have kept had you been flying. The disadvantage to this is that you cannot press <- or -> because it will "reset" your speed back to walking speed. In my 15-exit run, I use it in most of Crystal Star World, which is why the screen does not follow me up at first - jumps on the first frame don't "count" as far as scrolling goes. I end up waiting an extra frame to let the screen catch up to me so I can clear the highest pillars. This was faster than landing and running back up to flying speed because my jumps are already at that same speed, without the slowdown of trying to re-reach that speed by running. That technique on your run gives this very minor improvement, at the end of Desert World 4, using this technique, and also the fact that you can slide into pokeys to kill them. I reach the goal two frames earlier, which I didn't even think was worth posting until I saw that it gained six more frames from the strange fadeout randomness. I also hexed your pyramid run thus far back into this run (which took a two frame delay to make it sync), so altogether this is six frames ahead. The other thing I thought of was for a few levels down the road - Water World 1 really doesn't have much in the way of picking stuff up, so I thought "well maybe going back to the mushroom house and getting another shell to carry through the water would speed up things overall". The problem is that to walk back to the mushroom house from that area means you have to walk all the way around back to Desert World 2, because you can't walk from the pyramid to the house until you walk from the house to the pyramid. So, I give you this other run, which hexed in an extra move on the map when you were at the mushroom house to make that option available, if it ends up being faster. Feel free to use either of these runs if you like. My guess would be that the fastest option for the next few levels is the following: Yellow Switch Palace Desert Pyramid #2 Castle (secret) Desert Secret (for another shell) #2 Castle And then use the shell in Water World 1 (most of which you can swim under). It may even be worth it to get yet another shell to use again for the second exit to Water World 1 later on. The rest of the water levels either have stuff to carry, don't consist of all water, or auto-scroll (wheeee). So, none of this is tested, but I'm just bringing it to the table as a possibility. Also the frame counts on the runs I have here are not exact - I just hexed in a larger number so the movie would still play through. That will fix itself automatically next time you work on the run, though.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
I'm having the hardest time with those keyjumps. This is what I've managed so far, and that room is something like 113 frames slower total than yours. I'll try to do it again tomorrow, but if I can't I'll just look at your run and try to copy what you do. Bleh.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Joined: 6/6/2005
Posts: 124
Try being slightly closer to the wall as you kick the key. Seems the key falls much farther than it did in jxq's video. Also, I'm not entirely sure if landing on the platform on the downards dive is faster. edit: I mean that it seems the key falls much farther down and it's much slower before you get in the proper position to jumpgrab.
JXQ
Experienced player (750)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
You aren't 113 frames slower, you're 45 frames faster. I "caught up" by 11 frames during the keyjump part. From what I can tell, the difference in our keyjumping was that I let go of B and Y when I kicked the key until I pressed them both again to re-jump, where you held B again earlier. I think you did this because you released the key a little higher to the peak of your jump than I did, so just falling from that point would not have worked. So, my advice would be to release the key a little earlier than you are (maybe 10 frames-ish) and then you can fall down to it instead of floating down to it. It may also be possible to do faster than I did in my run - at the time I was just geeked I got it to work. I have another small run I made where keyjumping will be useful much later, I'll post it here, maybe it will help. It isn't really optimized at all, I just thought it was neat to try. The best "rate" I've gotten on this or the pyramid movie was 16 frames between the first animation of the kick (the white sun-burst thing) and the first frame holding the key again, and I seem to hold the key after jumping for 18 or 19 frames. Also, from a common point on the downward dive to the key, Fabian's run gains 22 frames, so hitting the platform is faster than avoiding it (or at least, the way I avoided it). The rest was gained (I'm guessing) by hitting the P-switch at the better spot, and flying down as early as possible.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
Apparently I started timing my room when Mario's feet first appeared from the pipe, and yours when Mario stopped being in "pipe animation" or something like that, causing my comparison to be way off. I'm now 55 frames faster than you are jxq, but I think only 9 of the gained frames are from keyjump improvements and the last frame from a different way of entering the pipe. This should mean there's still 2 keyjumping frames to be gained, but I really don't know how to improve it anymore. I'll just leave it as it is for now. If anyone's interested in trying to find out what's wrong, the new, very small, improvement is here Next up is trying to find out if keyjumping is faster than flying in the next room. Small edit: Another thing that should have gained me time is landing on the key instead of the ground, since that's a few frames less I need to fall and a few frames less to jump.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
I saw the improvements you posted in the irc channel jxq, very nice. I haven't done much on the run while the site was down, but the latest run can be found here I keyjump in room 7, which was 30 frames faster compared to your demo jxq. Room 8 and 9 is nothing special, I've tried to grab the key+P-switch faster than you did but so far no luck, it's tricky. I hope you can add these last few rooms to the smv with your new improvements. Edit: I managed to save some time by grabbing the key+P-switch another way than jxq, which also looks a lot cooler I think. Don't bother with the other link, click here instead. It's 9 frames faster than jxq's demo for now, but I definately think it can be done faster, as you can see I bump into the wall after the grab. I was just happy that it finally worked and I wanted to record some small improvement before going to bed, and the wall bump couldn't be avoided without going back and redo it. If anyone wants to improve it while I'm sleeping that's great, otherwise I'll try tomorrow. I also quickly tried to kick+regrab the same way I did the last time I was in this room, but I doubt it's possible with two items. I'll try more tomorrow.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
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