Joined: 8/23/2008
Posts: 417
Far be it from me to impede the progress of any TAS, but it just seems rude to continually argue with people who have the skills to TAS. If they don't think it can be done, your options should be to do it yourself or let it go, not to badger them into doing what you want them to do. I hate to even post anything but you're just blatantly ignoring their repeated requests to drop it. At some point good manners should take precedent, even over possible improvements.
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Acheron86 wrote:
Far be it from me to impede the progress of any TAS, but it just seems rude to continually argue with people who have the skills to TAS. If they don't think it can be done, your options should be to do it yourself or let it go, not to badger them into doing what you want them to do. I hate to even post anything but you're just blatantly ignoring their repeated requests to drop it. At some point good manners should take precedent, even over possible improvements.
I'm not sure what your referring to specifically, but it sounds like the stick route is still being considered which I can't see why it shouldn't be. I'm hoping to figure what the ideal routes would be and there differences and time the differences using what we already know and figure out the minimum amount of extra work needed to figure out the what we don't know. I still never understood why you can't owl skip and aqua slide with broken stick, the only answer I've heard is that broken stick goes away after a load zone, but there is no load zone between these two uses so I'm confused and want to know what else is up here, I'm not asking for any TA work to be done, badger or being rude. I'm asking questions to people which have said it's good to ask questions.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
MrGrunz wrote:
slowi's right, so stop the discussion right here. we tested this a while ago and aqua escape is clearly superior. it's still debatable if ruto's bottle might be quicker, which probably isn't the case.
Yeah I timed it. Ruto bottle is clearly slower, sadly. The cutscenes and movement on the overworld alone bring it close to cucco bottle. If you add the movement in ZD, it's clearly far behind. Really sad, that route would have been fun... I wish we had some way of getting into ZD without any item. Then ruto bottle would be faster by quite a big margin. The down - up the river is what kills it.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
I got that, but what I don't get it why can't you use broken stick in the k field level to both skip owl and aqua slide since there's no loading zone you would need to go through.
Like I said 50 times before: You don't have the stick anymore when you leave Kakariko. Besides you need sword and stick to skip the owl. You need to pull them out in short intervalls. What the TAS would do is start an aqua slide right when you get out of zora river and with that slide to Kakariko. The ISS will skip the owl. But after that the stick is kaputt, gone, not there anymore!
You wouldn't have to TAS the whole child section, just stick route up to the vines, ZR stick route (no slides), cucco collecting stick route (throwing instead of slashing). Sword route up to the vines has already been TASed, Sword route ZR has already been done, sword route cucco collecting has already been done. And they don't have to perfect either unless they turn out to be less a second apart.
Which is basically the whole child section.
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Like I said 50 times before: You don't have the stick anymore when you leave Kakariko. Besides you need sword and stick to skip the owl. You need to pull them out in short intervalls. What the TAS will do is start an aqua slide right when you get out of zora river and with that slide to Kakariko. The ISS will skip the owl. But after that the stick is kaputt, gone, not there anymore!
Oh I think I get what you're saying now, the owl skip would be after ZR not after KV? I was thinking the owl came up after KV always and not which ever place you enter HF first from. Sorry for asking so many times, I guess we both weren't getting what each-other was saying. So I think this means there's already TAS videos of what sword route would be, and the stick is only different from 3 ZR slides, cucco collecting, and after KV slide. So I'm going to try to estimate what those 4 slides save then.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 12/6/2008
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MrGrunz wrote:
Without a new route for the adult section there won't be a new any% TAS. At least not by me.
I thought you would TAS that crap if your new dot skip is in there, which it might be now. :D Well I guess somebody will TAS it eventually. Might take a while though.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Oh I think I get what you're saying now, the owl skip would be after ZR not after KV? I was thinking the owl came up after KV always and not which ever place you enter HF first from. Sorry for asking so many times, I guess we both weren't getting what each-other was saying.
You should maybe test a little with PJ64. There is always an owl sitting in front of Kakariko. You skip it with a ISS on the way in and with the sign-targeting-trick on the way out. Bloob skipped it with the sword/stick-trick, on the way out of Kakaiko, in his TAS, but since we don't have sword and stick anymore that can't be done.
So I think this means there's already TAS videos of what sword route would be, and the stick is only different from 3 ZR slides, cucco collecting, and after KV slide. So I'm going to try to estimate what those 4 slides save then.
Cucco collecting can also be further improved. Bloob said so himself. Plus we don't have a definite time how long getting sword and how long getting stick takes. I still think sword would be faster, but if you want acurate timing for both, both routes would have to be TASed, from the ground up. Ofcourse you could hex the lost woods part from one into the other but that is so minor that it probably wouldn't be worth it.
Joined: 3/17/2009
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Acheron86 wrote:
Far be it from me to impede the progress of any TAS, but it just seems rude to continually argue with people who have the skills to TAS. If they don't think it can be done, your options should be to do it yourself or let it go, not to badger them into doing what you want them to do. I hate to even post anything but you're just blatantly ignoring their repeated requests to drop it. At some point good manners should take precedent, even over possible improvements.
Quit stirring shit up. We are in the process of planning the fastest route, your post seems to attempt to hinder that progress. I don't appreciate that, I doubt anyone here does.
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I thought I read there was a TAS of going down ZR with sword already, but I couldn't find it, maybe there isn't. What were speeds of SS and side hoping? You can get a pretty good estimate with these and a timing of the section one of these two ways. The aqua slide after KV takes about 8s and I think SS is about twice as fast as side hops, So there's about 8s saved with that one. *EDIT* There's only 3 places where cuccos are hit and two of them are right after they were thrown. So one would be picking it up and throwing it instead of hitting it, the other 2 would be walking forward a little more before throwing. So that'd be about 3s difference if a thrown cucco would work same as a hit one. So if I'm right, it seems the 3 slides in zora's river would have to save about 14s for the sword way to be faster, 25-(8+3)=14. In this RTS, he goes down ZR with no boosts in 35s, make that a TAS and it'd be about 30s, so the TAS of ZR would need to be about 16s for sword to be faster. Does this sound about right?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
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It occurred to me that if the ruto bottle has already been timed with NA version, then the difference with the J version would mostly be the text which can be TASed with a script easy peasy.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
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After thinking about it some more and not figuring out much I decided to trust the judgement of Grunz. And after giving it a rest I got genuinly excited at the prospect of a new run with aquaescape. Spider-Waffle: Has the rutobottle been TAS'ed with aquaescape? If so I have not seen it
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No, but I think the only difference between aqua escape ruto and bridge escape is going to be the first time in HF which should be pretty similar and the difference could probably be estimated alright, so then just script up the talking and bam, should know how long ruto will take within a couple seconds.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
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From what I've heard, the Ruto bottle is slower. Even on the J version.
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I don't suppose there's anything new which could speed up the Lon Lon bottle?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
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lonlon bottle requires you to wake talon, so no.
Joined: 12/16/2011
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Hey I'm pretty new here, I was lurking these forums for quite a while now. I'm an active member at SDA and like TASer and SDAer :P are going so well together now, I was hoping to give and or receive help. First, I saw a run recently on Youtube that look as fast or faster than the current one here, he use the JAP ver. The only thing in is run that I couldn't under stand is skipping the first cinematic Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhcbmrF6GWY&feature=related Since we can't always trust human eyes and I don't know if the Jap version is faster, I was asking if this was actually faster than Bloobiebla's one.
Joined: 8/7/2006
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Looks like it was manually edited out of the video to me.
Joined: 2/19/2010
Posts: 37
AndreLucLevesque wrote:
Hey I'm pretty new here, I was lurking these forums for quite a while now. I'm an active member at SDA and like TASer and SDAer :P are going so well together now, I was hoping to give and or receive help. First, I saw a run recently on Youtube that look as fast or faster than the current one here, he use the JAP ver. The only thing in is run that I couldn't under stand is skipping the first cinematic Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhcbmrF6GWY&feature=related Since we can't always trust human eyes and I don't know if the Jap version is faster, I was asking if this was actually faster than Bloobiebla's one.
I could be wrong, but I think that run starts timing when you get to controll link, while a tas would also time from power on to the last input. He also just edited the intro out of the run, only showing what he did after leaving link's house. The japanese version can't be compared to the english version unless you know how much faster/slower the text boxes are etc. What we do know is that the japanese version got much much faster text boxes, so that alone makes for several minutes shorter runs.
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That was pretty the reason why I ask, since I saw that the route was different in some part and that I can't tell which strat is better.
Joined: 3/17/2009
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The run is indeed good, but I doubt it is better than bloobs overall. Swordless, grunz, bloob + a few others could probably explain its weakpoints better than me, but I will give it a go. Here are my notes from watching it: no slide while rupeecollecting in beginning. Not getting stick, not skipping owl. Not getting chest in hole while collecting cuccos (saves about 8 sec, but has to get 20 rupees elsewhere). Pulling out mushroom twice in potion shop. Some of this may have been better. Like the mushroom twice and maybe even avoiding the chest in the hole. But stick should be faster than listening to the owl and watching him fly away even in the jap version.
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Synx wrote:
Pulling out mushroom twice in potion shop.
Pulling out mushroom twice might not be slower, just looks less clean... I think I remember someone saying the problem was that you had to wait x number of frames before pulling out the shroom. so, pulling it out once would be considered a playaround time waster while waiting for those frames.
Joined: 12/6/2008
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AndreLucLevesque wrote:
Hey I'm pretty new here, I was lurking these forums for quite a while now. I'm an active member at SDA and like TASer and SDAer :P are going so well together now, I was hoping to give and or receive help. First, I saw a run recently on Youtube that look as fast or faster than the current one here, he use the JAP ver. The only thing in is run that I couldn't under stand is skipping the first cinematic Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhcbmrF6GWY&feature=related Since we can't always trust human eyes and I don't know if the Jap version is faster, I was asking if this was actually faster than Bloobiebla's one.
Just to be clear we are all aware that this is a TAS? You can see an emulator bug in the menu. The description of the video says that the run is copied from nico-video to youtube. So that is yet another knock-off of a TAS from here. Probably even copied input from Bloobs run. Thankfully some things aren't hexable. That's why he couldn't get the HISS to Kakariko. any% on Jap is about 6:30 faster than on U. Combine that with the shoddy timing and this is quite a bit slower than bloobs TAS. The folks in #zelda told me this is the currently fastest realtime run: http://twitch.tv/zfg1/b/298452015
Joined: 12/16/2011
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Yep, I was aware that this was TAS, it was pretty obvious even without the menu bug. I went through bloob's run again and realized that this one is way slower, the alternative parts that he take are slower also. I didn't remember correctly bloob's run and though that some parts were faster(the Jap one), it was my mistake.
Joined: 12/6/2008
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Just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page. It wasn't really clear. I hope we'll get an improved TAS at some point. However it probably won't come from th japanese fraction. They have really good SM64 TASers, but their Zelda TASer are somewhat behind. Sadly Grunz and Bloob don't want to TAS anything at the moment and Swordless is still working on MST, so a new TAS isn't in sight.
Joined: 12/16/2011
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Just to be sure, MST stand for main story??? Aside from this, I agree that it would be very nice if someone would work on this. We should ask mr. grunz, his MM run is totally sick(but it totally took 2 years also :P )
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AndreLucLevesque wrote:
Just to be sure, MST stand for main story??? Aside from this, I agree that it would be very nice if someone would work on this. We should ask mr. grunz, his MM run is totally sick(but it totally took 2 years also :P )
MST is Medallions, Stones and Trials. Meaning, it doesn't skip any of the child dungeons, the adult dungeons or any of the trials in Ganon's castle. It does not use the reverse bottle adventure to gain the stones and medallions, like in the any% run.
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We need a new MST-run so that's good imo. There are way more improvements available in MST than in any% for OoT.