Come on guys, like a lot of other people I cannot enjoy this drama. It was funny a few weeks ago, but now it is just annoying!
Spider-Waffle wrote:
I'm sure if anyone has verified if Tektite is faster that LLR. Someone did a RTS comparison without any HESS, and tektite was about 17s slower.
So in trying to estimate the difference, I'm going with a day time system. Bloobleibla's TAS has 16s extra between egg hatch and KV, could be 14s if not getting rubies in lake, and spends 30s where sun isn't changing. ZFGs RTS spends 96s where sun isn't changing, make that a TAS and it'd be maybe 90s. So 90-(14+30)= 46s. So Tektite should be about 44s faster stopping at that.
But for TAS with LLR way, you could 15 nuts and a bunch of rubies for free while waiting and skip picking and selling bugs and getting nuts. This save about 7s for bugs+sell, and 3s getting and RBAing nuts, both will be able to throw nuts for free during KD fight.
So tektite is still 36s faster about. Please check if there's a flaw in this estimate.
For bomb RBA, I've calculated for a RTS it should be able 30s faster, for a TAS it would even better since you can check less bushes and get even more bombs and check bushes you do check faster using bombs.
Getting Well chus is another option but I'm pretty sure that's slower, since it takes the TAS about 2:50 extra to get the well chus, where as you can RBA bombs and gauntlets in 30s and pick up drops in 10s or so. I don't thinking having the extra Aslides before cojiro could possibly save 2:10
So If I'm mistaken it's pretty clear what the new any% ganonless route should be?
It has always been clear, that fishing pond is clearly faster than LLR. When Swordless DoT Skip was discovered, which made the LLR route finnaly possible, we all hoped, that going to LLR would save some time over the old route.
After doing some testing and a lot of thinking it was obvious that LLR is definitely slower, because of the damn egg.
Getting bombs from DC takes quite some time, whereas RBAing Cojiro allows us to get bombs earlier and also skips RBAing the normal cucco. And as we've figured out already we want to go to DC after magic, so RBAing bombs is actually the only option.
All in all, there was no real need to time everything once again, because as I wrote in an earlier post, there are only 2 minor questions concerning the route left ;)
Now that SpiderWaffel has misteriously disapeared, and will never be seen again, there are only people left who will actually listen, so I'll write down the route to clarify things.
stick
aqua escape
down river 17r
aquaslide to Kakariko
cucco collecting, bottle, 3r from rock (20r)
owl skip -> bridge (80r)
buy shield (0r)
DoT skip (bottle has to be on c-right)
adault
Kakariko, Pocket Egg
HISS to Lake Hylia
slice bushes (40r)
Tektite hover to pond
steal rod, bottle B (20r)
get to leaf trees in the west of HF, get a nut drop
slide of nearby poe to Kakariko
Wake up Talon -> Cojiro
Throw a rock, while it's in the air RBA bombs and cojiro, get bomb drop from landing rock (this has to be tried out, if it's actually possible. If not the bugs have to be gotten on the previous trip to Kakariko)
Slide to Lost Woods through Hyrule field, pressure jump
trade Cojiro for odd mush
Go through Goron City to Kakariko, to not occur the HF intro cutscene
Get a fish in Kakariko Grotto, trade odd mush for odd potion
again through HF to LW, you know the drill
trade odd potion for poachers saw
some time before this point RBA all the trade items from cojiro onwards, RBA fish and throw some nuts, when it's most convenient
Go through Goron city to magic, get magic
Equip sword and cutscene SS to Dodongos Cavers
Hover up the skull, light the eyes
Ocarina items switch
kill King Dodongo
warp to Lake Hylia with Serenade of water
Hover back up to the fishing pond
get rod, get bottle on B (0r)
Superslide your way to the carpenters tent
trade poachers saw for broken sword
RBA broken sword
warp to temple of time with prelude of light
watch boring cutscene
set Farores wind at temple of time entrance
go to Dodongos Cavern
Use wrong warp
PROFIT!
I tried to not use shorthand, since it's often confusing to people who don't plan routes for this game all the time. A few slipped in, but only after I had spelled the names out previously.
Please correct me if I made a mistake somewhere.
Whatever came of the idea of getting the 20r under the Zora River land bridge so we have fewer bushes to manipulate later?
Also if it doesn't waste a pause I think it was decided that the King Dodongo fight would be the best place to throw nuts.
I highly doubt that we can get that one without a sword, that's why I didn't put it in there.
If we can get it, it would probably replace one side of the bridge, not slashing the bushes. Slashing bushes is really quick. Four bushes more or less doesn't matter that much, if you are slicing anyway.
But good thinking. :)
When Sock first found WWing to the credits from ToT, he set FW immediately after LACS, but when this was tested on console, it froze. It was originally presumed to be "another emulator/console difference" but now that we know that's probably not the case, it's possible there's a way to set FW without having to leave and reenter ToT.
Whatever came of the idea of getting the 20r under the Zora River land bridge so we have fewer bushes to manipulate later?
Also if it doesn't waste a pause I think it was decided that the King Dodongo fight would be the best place to throw nuts.
the water current is against you so you have to switch one side of the river for the other one which results in a 32 rupees total(i got 12 before the red rupee,be sure not to miss any of them and didn't count after it)
you could also take the normal path and go to the land again and get that extra red.
TAS i'm interested:
megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched
fighting games with speed goals in general
Throw a rock, while it's in the air RBA bombs and cojiro, get bomb drop from landing rock (this has to be tried out, if it's actually possible. If not the bugs have to be gotten on the previous trip to Kakariko)
Slide to Lost Woods through Hyrule field, pressure jump
Yeah this is possible. It worked out beautifully in the old USA WIP.
And although unimportant, I'll add that we no longer pressure jump. Now we superflip onto the lower part of the rope ^_^. Saves a bit of time and looks slick.
The route makes perfect sense, though I don't think there's clear winner for rupee collection like I said earlier, pointing out the river rupees, 20,40, and 60 rupee variants on chains, and is there a reason why bug sell isn't included? If you're already picking bugs and getting bottle on B it's 3s extra to pick up another, and 4s to sell since it's on the way to shop. I know 40r from bushes would take on the order of 7s, so this is the only thing I think needs more precise testing. There's certainly a lot of combinations that will work. And I'm pretty sure any tree would be strictly worse than bushes for rupees, unless there's a shortage of bushes somehow.
I'll add that we no longer pressure jump. Now we superflip onto the lower part of the rope ^_^. Saves a bit of time and looks slick.
I was always pretty sure that would be possible, glad someone finally did it, since you can run the bomb to anywhere on the bridge before it explodes during free time, and the middle is a lot lower than the ends.
Waits for slowking to flame post, unfortunately
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I just want to make sure that everyone in this thread is aware that the Rupee is an actual name for many currencies used in real countries right here on earth.
Also, I am gladdened to see that SlowKing has resolved not to get riled up over Spider-Waffle anymore, and I hope that Spider-Waffle will return the favor by being as polite as possible, and attempting to make it very clear why his suggestions are reasonable in the face of existing knowledge.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Oh just noticed, the 5r behind midos house are probably better than 3r from a rock. Since we can't clip the house on the stick route, it is directly on the way.
And nut throwing is probably best done during King Dodongo fight. He makes you wait a while anyway.
r0bd0g wrote:
When Sock first found WWing to the credits from ToT, he set FW immediately after LACS, but when this was tested on console, it froze. It was originally presumed to be "another emulator/console difference" but now that we know that's probably not the case, it's possible there's a way to set FW without having to leave and reenter ToT.
He probably didn't warp into ToT to start the cutscene, but walked in. The LACS doesn't change the entrance you came in. The warp entrance just doesn't do it.
Bloobiebla wrote:
Slowking wrote:
Throw a rock, while it's in the air RBA bombs and cojiro, get bomb drop from landing rock (this has to be tried out, if it's actually possible. If not the bugs have to be gotten on the previous trip to Kakariko)
Slide to Lost Woods through Hyrule field, pressure jump
Yeah this is possible. It worked out beautifully in the old USA WIP.
And although unimportant, I'll add that we no longer pressure jump. Now we superflip onto the lower part of the rope ^_^. Saves a bit of time and looks slick.
When Sock first found WWing to the credits from ToT, he set FW immediately after LACS, but when this was tested on console, it froze. It was originally presumed to be "another emulator/console difference" but now that we know that's probably not the case, it's possible there's a way to set FW without having to leave and reenter ToT.
He probably didn't warp into ToT to start the cutscene, but walked in. The LACS doesn't change the entrance you came in. The warp entrance just doesn't do it.
LACS changes your last entrance to 058C and sets the cutscene pointer to 8037C150 regardless of whether you warp in or walk in, so in theory it shouldn't matter what you do, unless preserving the previous cutscene data in ram is required for the wrong warp to be successful on console.
Edit: I think I figured it out. The entrance index stored in Farore's Wind determines whether or not the game automatically loads the cutscene data for the scene when wrong warping.
From what I've been able to gather, the cutscene data is loaded every time you enter a scene (Temple of Time) under normal circumstances, even if it's not needed. The cutscene pointer (which points to the cutscene data in ram) is set based on the scene being entered and the stage value (stage value determines which cutscene to play).
However, if the entrance index stored in Farore's Wind isn't the first entrance index for the scene, the cutscene data is not loaded to memory, meaning that you could potentially end up playing a garbage cutscene and crash the game.
Now, when you cast FW immediately after the LACS, the end credits segment in the ToT will be loaded into memory, and will stay in memory until another game object overwrites the cutscene data. Unfortunately, Hyrule Field does just this.
The route makes perfect sense, though I don't think there's clear winner for rupee collection like I said earlier, pointing out the river rupees, 20,40, and 60 rupee variants on chains, and is there a reason why bug sell isn't included? If you're already picking bugs and getting bottle on B it's 3s extra to pick up another, and 4s to sell since it's on the way to shop. I know 40r from bushes would take on the order of 7s, so this is the only thing I think needs more precise testing. There's certainly a lot of combinations that will work. And I'm pretty sure any tree would be strictly worse than bushes for rupees, unless there's a shortage of bushes somehow.
There's not a single moment in the whole run when we are close to the guy that buys the bugs and all the other stuff from you. So we'd have to drop quite a few seconds just to get to him.
As adult bushes drop 5 rupees. Slashing each one costs averagely 30 seconds. So getting 40 rupees would take around 4 seconds and it can be done even quicker, because you can slash more than one bush with one slash. Slashing bushes is way quicker than almost every other way available to collect rupees. It is even quicker than the rupees in the kakariko grotto or the ones at market bridge.
Although we enter the kakariko grotto as adult to get a fish anyway, the chest is still way slower than slashing more bushes.
The only realistic red rupee, that could be faster than slashing extra bushes is the one under the rock on the way to magic. We usually don't need to blow this rock up, so this would have to be timed by TASing it.
As adult bushes drop 5 rupees. Slashing each one costs averagely 30 seconds. So getting 40 rupees would take around 4 seconds and it can be done even quicker, because you can slash more than one bush with one slash.
As adult bushes drop 5 rupees. Slashing each one costs averagely 30 seconds. So getting 40 rupees would take around 4 seconds and it can be done even quicker, because you can slash more than one bush with one slash.
This is for Spider-Waffle, before he rebuts MrGrunz:
I think you'll agree it's obvious that manipulated grass is way faster than giving a bottle to the guy, even if we did walk right in front of him. But according to Slowking's route, the only times we are anywhere near the guy is while collecting cuccos (1) and when going to trade the mushroom for the potion from DMT (2).
problem with 1: we don't have a bottle yet (let alone bugs)
problem with 2: we already needed the money, and he is at least 5s away, round trip
As adult bushes drop 5 rupees. Slashing each one costs averagely 30 seconds. So getting 40 rupees would take around 4 seconds and it can be done even quicker, because you can slash more than one bush with one slash.
To clearify, he means 0.30 seconds.
Pretty sure he means 30 frames.
Doesn't this game run at 20 FPS? 40 rupees in 4 seconds would mean taking 10 frames to slash each of the 8 bushes. Or if it takes 0.3 second to slash each bush, it would take 2.4 seconds to get 40 rupees. And 30 frames would be 1.5 seconds, so if it takes that long to slash a bush, then it would take 12 seconds to get 40 rupees. So which is right then?
OK, lemme see if I understand this, and hopefully you can correct me if I'm mistaken on anything.
When you wrong warp into an area without a "cutscene entrance table", some sort of attempt is made to load or play (or something) the last cutscene that you watched (and this can sometimes affect your position, the camera, whether or not you have control, whether or not you respawn in the area you warped to or the area you set FW, or maybe have some other weird effects). Whether or not the game crashes depends on whether or not that cutscene's data is overwritten in the process of reaching the warp. You can control this by having previously watched a different cutscene or maybe taking a different route to the boss room. Why are the results sometimes different (say, savewarping after blowing up the wall and then doing DC WW) as child or adult?
When you wrong warp into an area with a cutscene entrance table (is there a list somewhere where I can see which areas have these and which cutscenes they have?), an attempt is made to play that area's cutscene (so which cutscene you last watched doesn't matter in this case). If no cutscene in that area has the same "value" (IDK what to call this) as the cutscene that would normally play after the blue warp that you used, you get a crash. If the data for the cutscene in that area is overwritten on the way to the warp, you get a crash (this cannot be averted by watching a different previous cutscene since no attempt is made to play your previous cutscene). This crash can be averted by setting FW at the first (usually the main?) entrance to a scene, since the cutscene data will be loaded normally so there is no danger of overwriting the data somehow. It is not possible to set FW at the first entrance and not WW to that same area?
Regardless of whether or not an area has a cutscene entrance table, you can get crashes by attempting to warp into an invalid scene, or setting FW in a map in a scene for which the scene you try to warp into has no corresponding map. Do I understand this right? Anything I've missed?
So the only way to avoid having to leave an reenter ToT is to warp to the graveyard instead of going through HF and I'm assuming that that's way slower? For one thing you'd have to spend a few seconds getting a 2nd bottle to keep bugs to RBA the Saw with, and I'm not sure you'd have anything to OI with without having to go to the castle.
is there a list somewhere where I can see which areas have these and which cutscenes they have?
I think you are looking for this? Notice that for Temple of Time (ToT) WW in Dodongo Cavern, entering with song leads to crash, and entering from outside leads to credits.
Edit: Updated link, since they just moved the page.
The game runs with 20 frames or let's say "pictures" per second. There are 60 input frames per second, which means 3 input frames for each picture. Usually you can only get one effect for one certain picture, but for some stuff like Z-targetting and swimming all 60 input frames give you different results. I suck at explaining, but this is way we usually measure our stuff in 60 frames per second.
In my last post I said 30 seconds, but wanted to write 30 frames. 30 frames are of course 0.5 seconds, so getting 40 rupees take maximal 4 seconds. It can be done even quicker by doing some pro manipulation to cut more than one bush with one slash and you can believe me, you'll get to see the pro manipulation in this run :P
bkDJ wrote:
r0bd0g wrote:
Why are the results sometimes different (say, savewarping after blowing up the wall and then doing DC WW) as child or adult?
AFAIK, they aren't?
There are indeed different results. Like mxzrules has clarified in one of his posts, the last cutscene you have watched before doing the Wrong Warp changes the result. It can't change the area you warp to, but it changes results like freezing, semi-freezing, the position you warp to on the map etc.
That is also why we first assumed that Mupen freezes whenever you try to Wrong Warp using Fire Temple and Dodongo's Cavern. We simply thought Mupen was a piece of crap (which it always has been and always will be :P) and thus the warps couldn't work.
Watching the right cutscene beforehand fixes this. Now we know that all the Wrong Warps work nicely.
As adult bushes drop 5 rupees. Slashing each one costs averagely 30 seconds. So getting 40 rupees would take around 4 seconds and it can be done even quicker, because you can slash more than one bush with one slash.
My bad, I misunderstood the question as: "Given the same FW area and entrance and same last-seen-cutscene and same Blue Warp, why does FW WW do one thing for child and something else for adult?" But Farore's Wind Wrong Warp is adult-only (insert dirty joke here) so never mind :D
