There is arbitrary and then there aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarbitrary.
14 (or probably more) specific conditions that have to be met to satisfy a goal is aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarbitrary.
I'm sufficiently aware of how it works, though I am no expert.
Maybe RBA can't do it (if so, then sorry for specifically mentioning RBA), but what I meant was that unless we define HOW items are acquired, glitches could be used to duplicate stuff (as mentioned before).
Or we just specifically ban those glitches...
There are only two that would be apllicable here. RBA and item duplication.
I think banning item duplication is a valid point. I wouldn't ban RBA since it isn't that usefull in in 100% anyway, but ymmv.
Also, maxing out the subscreen would imply you have to get all the beans. Though I suppose that is one lesser evil for fewer exceptions.
Also, maxing out maps seem kind of pointless... another drawback with the maxing out subscreen definition.
To clear up what RBA can do for 100%:
RBA can get:
- all child stones (this probably wouldn't be done, since you need the boss heart container anyway)
- a few medallions (this definatly wouldn't be done, since you need the boss heart containers and getting the light medallion abck takes forever)
- Can write upgrades into the inventory (don't know if this could be done, since this also writes corrupt stuff into the slots. Would depend if you could get rid of it afterwards. Would have to investigate..)
- Can get you at least one extra bottle (this would probably skip poe collecting)
- Can write you one heart piece into the inventory (so this would allow you to skip a few heart pieces, but not nearly all of them)
Ofcourse I'm operating under the assumption here, that item duplication would be banned.
Also, maxing out the subscreen would imply you have to get all the beans. Though I suppose that is one lesser evil for fewer exceptions.
Bean count is just as ammunition count. Doesn't count towards maxing out.
Also, maxing out maps seem kind of pointless... another drawback with the maxing out subscreen definition.
I guess we could exclude maps... yeah I notice myself it gets more and more arbitrary. ;p
But lets see anyway:
- max out the start screens inside and outside of dungeons, not counting stuff on maps
- item duplication is banned
( - RBA?)
- end the game
Edit:
RachelB wrote:
EEssentia wrote:
Also, maxing out the subscreen would imply you have to get all the beans.
it also implies you need to finish with 50 bombs, bomchus, arrows, etc. Also, you wouldn't even be allowed to plant any beans.
It really doesn't, imo...
But maybe "have every menu-item and upgrade (outside and inside of dungeons) in it's best form"? That would also solve our map screen dilemma...
...But not the gold skulltula problem. We somehow need some items of which we need collect only one (eg bombs, beans) and where we have to collect all of them (eg gold skulltulas).
But I suppose that collecting an item is different from refilling an item. Once collected, it permanently stays in the inventory even if you don't have any.
Pictures for anyone not quite familiar about how the 100% pause menus look, and also my opinions as to what I consider 100% below them:
- Gold Skulltula token from collecting all the ones in that dungeon
- Boss Key
- Compass
- Dungeon Map
- NOT each room visited
- NOT all chests opened/nor all Small Keys obtained
- No RBA allowed; each item must be obtained such that it cannot be obtained twice
- Stone of Agony
- Gerudo Membership Card
- Gold Skulltula total, no duplications allowed
- All 20 hearts, no duplication allowed
- All songs
- All medallions
- All Spiritual Stones
- NOT all possible cutscenes seen (allows for Wrong Warps and Cutscene Deaths)
- No RBA allowed; all items must be collected from their normal methods
- Link's cow obtained (not in the menu, but part of my 100% definition)
- All Great Fairy upgrades
- Best upgrade for Arrows (Adult) and Slingshot (Child), as well as Bombs, Strength Upgrade, and Scales, but you DO have to collect the ones that hold a lower quantity (known as Left-Side Equipment, LSE)
- Obviously, all right-side equipment (RSE), highest upgrades (i.e. minus the Giant's Knife)
- No RBA allowed to touch the LSE or RSE
- All items collected. No RBA allowed to place the items in the inventory, but once they're collected, their quantities can be RBA'd (Bloobliebla's Ice Cavern with all those slides = omg)
- All Gold Skulltula icons in the overworld, which means that you have collected all the GS in that area
EDIT: Typo
It really doesn't, imo...
But maybe "have every menu-item and upgrade (outside and inside of dungeons) in it's best form"? That would also solve our map screen dilemma...
Now you're just making it more and more arbitrary.
It really doesn't, imo...
But maybe "have every menu-item and upgrade (outside and inside of dungeons) in it's best form"? That would also solve our map screen dilemma...
Now you're just making it more and more arbitrary.
I notice that it's getting more arbitrary. These two rules are still way better than 14+ individual rules about what to collect and what not to collect, because we like it that way. ;)
So that would be:
- have every menu-item and upgrade (outside and inside of dungeons) in it's best form
- no item duplication
- (RBA?)
- end the game
Still pretty compact.
- Boss Key
- Compass
- Dungeon Map
- Stone of Agony
- Gerudo Membership Card
- Gold Skulltula total, no duplications allowed
- All songs
- All medallions
- All Spiritual Stones
- Best upgrade for Arrows (Adult) and Slingshot (Child), as well as Bombs, Strength Upgrade, and Scales, but you DO have to collect the ones that hold a lower quantity (known as Left-Side Equipment, LSE)
- Obviously, all right-side equipment (RSE), highest upgrades (i.e. minus the Giant's Knife)
- All items collected. No RBA allowed to place the items in the inventory, but once they're collected, their quantities can be RBA'd (Bloobliebla's Ice Cavern with all those slides = omg)
Summarized as: Collect all items that show up subscreen without the use of item duplication or RBA.
If we define an item as something you get from a chest or the like and not stuff lying around or gotten from enemies (refills), then this definition makes sense, and it makes sense for 100%, too.
RattleMan wrote:
- Magic/Double Magic
- NOT all chests opened/nor all Small Keys obtained
I would agree on the magic. I would also say all heart pieces must be collected. This could be summarized as: Collect all items that show up on the HUD.
Again, define items as things that are finite. That rules out rupees, but not the keys.
RattleMan wrote:
- Link's cow obtained (not in the menu, but part of my 100% definition)
Makes sense for 100%, but very tricky to define. Might have to live without this one...
RattleMan wrote:
- NOT each room visited
- NOT all possible cutscenes seen (allows for Wrong Warps and Cutscene Deaths)
I would tend to agree. Cutscenes and map exploration is not part of 100% definition for a Zelda game (Castlevania games may be different though...).
RattleMan wrote:
- Gold Skulltula token from collecting all the ones in that dungeon
- All Gold Skulltula icons in the overworld, which means that you have collected all the GS in that area
Not really necessary since you require all golden skulltulas be collected which requires this to show up according to the game's rules.
Who is suggesting 14 rules?
What i've suggested is 2: all unique and permanent items, plus right side equipment.
Those are empty words. To define "all unique permanent items" you need 20 paragraphs.
It seems clear what it means with no further explanation, assuming you already know what those two words mean.
Yeah it doesn't include heart pieces and skulltullas for example. Since those are not unique nor items. That seems absolutely clear.
It also doesn't include the double magic bar or the double resist, as those are not items or equipment.
Who is suggesting 14 rules?
What i've suggested is 2: all unique and permanent items, plus right side equipment.
Those are empty words. To define "all unique permanent items" you need 20 paragraphs.
It seems clear what it means with no further explanation, assuming you already know what those two words mean.
Yeah it doesn't include heart pieces and skulltullas for example. Since those are not unique nor items. That seems absolutely clear.
It also doesn't include the double magic bar or the double resist, as those are not items or equipment.
Heart pieces and skulltula tokens aren't items? Are you kidding me?
Ugh I'm so tired of this. I'm going back to
- Maxed out menu inside and outside of dungeons*
with the new:
*maxed out does not mean item amount or amunition have to be maxed nor locations/symbols on maps removed or set
I so don't care that it's kind of arbitrary. At least it's clear, precise and doesn't need 20 paragraphs to explain.
How about just
- Collect all items that show up in the menu at all points of time without the use of item duplication or RBA. An item is defined as something that shows up in the menu and sticks there. Similar items that can be acquired from enemies and chests later on after you've picked up the first of the item are considered refills, and thus are not required.
- Collect all finite and persistent items and upgrades that affect the HUD.
Two paragraphs. No maxing out. Unique items are covered.
(Now, start picking holes in those two paragraphs.)
That doesn't work either, sorry.
According to your definition you would have to collect everything. First hookshot, then longshot, go through all the adault trade instead of just the last part, etc.
Either that or you would only need the first item in the trading sequence and only the hookshot, etc.
Like my edit says your definition could also be seen as "only get the slot filled", doesn't matter what's in there.
Also there is quite a bit of harm in doing unneccesary stuff, that no 100% run would ever do it. prolongs the run. Makes it seem worse than it is. If something is overwritten anywa<, you don't collect it.
Also tbh, my last definition was more precise. Maybe a little bit more arbitrary, but I don't really think so...
- Gold Skulltula token from collecting all the ones in that dungeon
- Boss Key
- Compass
- Dungeon Map
- NOT each room visited
- NOT all chests opened/nor all Small Keys obtained
- No RBA allowed; each item must be obtained such that it cannot be obtained twice
- Stone of Agony
- Gerudo Membership Card
- Gold Skulltula total, no duplications allowed
- All 20 hearts, no duplication allowed
- All songs
- All medallions
- All Spiritual Stones
- NOT all possible cutscenes seen (allows for Wrong Warps and Cutscene Deaths)
- No RBA allowed; all items must be collected from their normal methods
- Link's cow obtained (not in the menu, but part of my 100% definition)
- All Great Fairy upgrades
- Best upgrade for Arrows (Adult) and Slingshot (Child), as well as Bombs, Strength Upgrade, and Scales, but you DO have to collect the ones that hold a lower quantity (known as Left-Side Equipment, LSE)
- Obviously, all right-side equipment (RSE), highest upgrades (i.e. minus the Giant's Knife)
- No RBA allowed to touch the LSE or RSE
- All items collected. No RBA allowed to place the items in the inventory, but once they're collected, their quantities can be RBA'd (Bloobliebla's Ice Cavern with all those slides = omg)
- All Gold Skulltula icons in the overworld, which means that you have collected all the GS in that area
EDIT: Typo
