Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Samsara wrote:
I have a bad reputation to uphold.
In which case, let me inform you that the average white male in good health with no particular leanings is generally discriminated against in today's day and age.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
This is one of the reasons why I can't take neo-feminism seriously. This whole dogma that men can't complain about inequality where it's men who are in the losing part. And the reason they can't complain about it is because men are "privileged".
Feminists (especially feminist women) however can bring those things up without problems (and when they do, they are all like "see? We do care about men's problems too!") In other words, when a feminist brings up those problems, it's all about seeking equality and it's a good thing, but when a non-feminist man brings up the exact same problems, he's just a whining MRA hiding his misogyny behind such arguments.
"Privilege" is just a meaningless buzzword used by neo-feminists to attack their critics.
I "love" how this had turned from an apology thread to a gender inequality discussion.. which the original issue was resolved before. Then now becomes an argument thread. I honestly don't understand why this is still happening when a resolution was made 2 months prior...
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California
Warp wrote:
This is one of the reasons why I can't take neo-feminism seriously. This whole dogma that men can't complain about inequality where it's men who are in the losing part. And the reason they can't complain about it is because men are "privileged".
Feminists (especially feminist women) however can bring those things up without problems (and when they do, they are all like "see? We do care about men's problems too!") In other words, when a feminist brings up those problems, it's all about seeking equality and it's a good thing, but when a non-feminist man brings up the exact same problems, he's just a whining MRA hiding his misogyny behind such arguments.
"Privilege" is just a meaningless buzzword used by neo-feminists to attack their critics.
You must be loved over at Red Pill. What the fuck are you talking about? You're right on one point at least: Non-feminist men are whining and misogynistic MRAs when they bring up their problems like they're significant at the moment.
Look: I'm not saying white guys don't have problems. I'm saying there are bigger problems to worry about before we can tackle those problems. Bad analogy time: A schoolhouse filled with children and an abandoned building go up in flames at the same time, and for whatever reason you can only put out one at a time. Which one are you concerned about first? The schoolhouse, right? Lives are at stake, of course you want to prioritize that before putting out the other fire.
They're both problems that should eventually be solved, but if you're intent on getting people to focus on the smaller, insignificant problem while the larger, life-threatening problem is still going on, then of course people are going to think you're a complete shitheel.
I just don't get how you MRA shills can honestly truly believe that the shit you think you're going through is significant compared to the rest of what's happening in the world at the moment. That's why I think you're privileged: Because you can look at white guys getting away with killing black kids and still spew out "We're being discriminated against!"
Tell you what: I'll support your bullshit charade movement once we solve all the more important problems.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
There is a clear lack of civility and basic empathy in this thread.
Make no mistake: Warp's words were insensitive and out of place. I strongly disagree with his warped (heh) characterization of the issue, the words he chose, and his timing.
But that doesn't mean his narrative is completely invalid and coming from a place of dishonesty. Some white men do indeed face unique problems and I believe that, for the most part, it falls on them to have the discretion to see the broader picture and not complain without good reason. When they do complain, however, I think it's important to at least validate their feelings and try to keep in mind that although their problems usually don't measure up to the ones women or people of color face, it costs nothing to say, "I hear you. I understand that you're facing your own problems and you don't feel they're being acknowledged by society at large." Is that really so hard to do?
Our subgroups within society are not schoolhouses and abandoned buildings (in fact, I find the comparison of white men to abandoned buildings to be cruelly dismissive) and no one is "on fire", nor do we have a single water hose that can only put out one fire at a time.
I am NOT a Men's Rights activist, but I have peeked at their subreddit from time to time, usually to shake my head at the abysmal way they conduct themselves on the whole. But just like many feminists are upset that stereotypes about their movement are the product of a vocal minority, so too should we give Men's Rights activists the benefit of the doubt, I believe. Take an hour or so to read their subreddit's FAQ. A lot of what they say there actually sounds fairly reasonable and I think that everyone should be deeply concerned about some of the problems and discrimination they face, especially feminists who claim that they are fighting for gender equality, not the domination of women. Is Men's Rights activism in practice a platform for misogyny, marginalization of women, and sometimes outright lies? Absolutely! But let's not assume that every white man who says he has problems wholly endorses the bullshit spouted by a vocal minority (or maybe even majority!) within the MRA group.
Here's an interesting article that I think is a microcosm for the larger situation. We have gotten swept up into a legal frenzy over a rape crisis that may not even exist and in attempting to find a solution, we are unfairly and disproportionately punishing innocent men. Do their problems require the same level of attention as the fact that roughly one in five women are raped? No, of course not! But they need a voice, they need to be heard and their strong thoughts and feelings are completely valid.
Can't we just be nice to each other?
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California
I'll make more of an attempt to be civil, though I still think the anger is in some way justified given what's been said and done in these threads.
Don't look too hard into my analogies. I say up front that they're bad for a reason. The point of it was to show that problems can be addressed as long as we know which ones to prioritize, not to directly compare white men to abandoned buildings. The only problem I have with MRAs is their conduct and the fact that they really think the "discrimination" they go through is a more valid concern than anything else.
In my mind, all the awful shit that still happens to women all over the world needs to be the first thing we take care of. Literally five minutes of Googling will show you that there's still a huge problem in the way women are treated. Once we start taking steps to fix that, then and only then do I think we should start taking steps to fix the issues that the MRAs are seeing.
This whole "neo-feminism" and "MRA misogyny" argument is pretty much based on both sides completely misunderstanding the other from what I can tell: The most outspoken members of both sides are the psychopaths who ruin the reputation for everyone else, and those outspoken members have a skewed perception of things in the first place. For one thing, the so-called "neo-feminists" see nothing but shit like Red Pill and start to think all men are pigs, and rightfully so, while the really hardcore MRA assholes perceive women as having an easier life because all they're seeing are women who exploit the kindness of men.
Or, in short, both parties have really shitty people, and you only ever hear about the really shitty people, so your perception of said party gets skewed.
Look: I am, biologically, a white male myself. I do think there's been a recent shift in how white men have been treated and for a while it did legitimately upset me that I was suddenly hated for simply being born a white male. But I realized that, honestly, the fact that my first instinctive reaction was to think that I'm being discriminated against just sickens me, looking back on it. Yeah, there's some unfair discrimination happening to me and other white men, but how much of it is "deserved" as opposed to senseless and random? We "deserve" it more than any other group does, and that's why we need to be the ones to take the first steps to bridge the huge divide between feminism and men's rights activism.
And before I get shit for it, I don't actually mean white men "deserve" to be hated. Just that some of the things we've done as a race/gender combination are morally questionable at best and... well, the KKK at worst, so we're kinda bringing some justified hate onto ourselves. You have to admit that, at least.
I just want to stop seeing MRAs completely throw away the valid issues that women face. I would be far more willing to listen to an MRA that at least accepted that women face a fucking boatload of problems that need to be fixed sooner rather than later. We can talk about the fact that an entire religion treats women as inferior to men for a while, then we can discuss the fact that men can be wrongfully accused of rape or abused by their wives without anyone taking notice... Okay, admittedly I don't know much about what MRAs are fighting for, but I think that's saying something in and of itself: If it's brought up by a rational person, I'll listen. Otherwise, as it's been literally every time I've been exposed to an MRA, I won't care, since why bother with anyone who's narcissistic enough to demand that their group deserves more rights for no good reason?
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
You're right on one point at least: Non-feminist men are whining and misogynistic MRAs when they bring up their problems like they're significant at the moment.
Need I even comment? The hypocrisy is just mind-boggling.
You're right on one point at least: Non-feminist men are whining and misogynistic MRAs when they bring up their problems like they're significant at the moment.
Need I even comment? The hypocrisy is just mind-boggling.
You're right on one point at least: Non-feminist men are whining and misogynistic MRAs when they bring up their problems like they're significant at the moment.
Need I even comment? The hypocrisy is just mind-boggling.
That was unnecessary, Warp.
Maybe it was. It's just that I am completely tired of being insulted by feminists simply because I happen to have born male and white. I'm completely tired of insults being thrown at me, called names, and my opinions on the subject being considered of lesser value, for that sole reason. Apparently I'm supposed to feel some kind of shame because I'm "privileged", even though I did not choose my gender or ethnicity.
And then these same feminists preach how feminism is all about "equality". Yeah, right.
You're right on one point at least: Non-feminist men are whining and misogynistic MRAs when they bring up their problems like they're significant at the moment.
Need I even comment? The hypocrisy is just mind-boggling.
That was unnecessary, Warp.
I disagree. Samsara says that anyone who isn't currently dying of aids, thirst, hunger and being shot has no right to complain, because their problems aren't significant at the moment. He then goes on to complain.
You're right on one point at least: Non-feminist men are whining and misogynistic MRAs when they bring up their problems like they're significant at the moment.
Need I even comment? The hypocrisy is just mind-boggling.
That was unnecessary, Warp.
I disagree. Samsara says that anyone who isn't currently dying of aids, thirst, hunger and being shot has no right to complain, because their problems aren't significant at the moment. He then goes on to complain.
I don't entirely agree with Samsara, but Warp's comment added absolutely nothing to the discussion. Neither does yours.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California
We could have a nice, logical discussion about this, in which we calmly and rationally discuss my viewpoints and why they might be strange or hypocritical, or we could continue just calling me wrong and whiny and throw civility out the window altogether.
Scepheo wrote:
Samsara says that anyone who isn't currently dying of aids, thirst, hunger and being shot has no right to complain, because their problems aren't significant at the moment. He then goes on to complain.
That's not what I said at all, but okay, sure, whatever you say!
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Women naturally have more love and sexual power than men, and that's why the opposite power of fear and pain motivated men to gain economic, political and scientific power to rule the world, so that they could get love.
Feminists try to disturb this natural difference between men and women. This difference isn't inequality, it's just that men and women should have different roles in society, because men and women are different.
Just like other dualisms in the world, like our left and right hand, which have different roles: the left hand usually is the passive supporting (feminine) hand, while the right hand is the active (masculine) hand.
It is possible to unite men and women into bisexual gender-confused hermaphrodites like feminists try to do [1], but the problem is that they try to do it too fast and aggressively (fast/aggressive = masculine, slow = feminine). You can't blend feminine and masculine forces, like liberal/expansive and conservative. They don't mix very well.
But you need both of the universal forces, like attraction and repulsion, because if you try to unite humanity through the attraction force of love (equality), it will collapse into a black hole unless there is a repelling force of fear (like conservatism) which restricts and slows down the process.
[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14038419
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Northern California
I respect your opinion, but that's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard in my life.
EDIT: This thread really needs to be locked before this discussion gets further out of control.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
