Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
A Runnelid wrote:
There are two things I would like to say to FODA.
I have a little bit of difficulty accepting the fact that you don't want others to use your strategies, when the ambition is to create the fastest possible run. Judging by what you said, it sounds like it's more important that you make the fastest run, as opposed to creating something faster by sharing along the way, so others can implement it along the way. I'd understand if you'd want credit for a certain strategy, etc. but you would still get that. I know you know all this, so I'm wondering why you would mind that others used your approaches. I think hiding would foster bad-spirited competition, which is as far as I understand, something you don't want.
One other thing that you mention in the thread in an attempt to counter-argue the need for game expertise is the amount of videos Wouter has sent you. But these videos are from the seasoned players Filimonas is referring to, so that doesn't really prove expertise isn't part of it. Sure, it may not be required, but it made you learn faster/become more efficient, didn't it?
Which is more of less what was argued in the first place.
Andreas
I was being a little sarcastic about "competition mode" because that's how i think he made it feel like it is. As if it's a rule he'd be setting. These guys like to say "my glitch", "glitch exclusive to <site name here>". Well, to me there's no such thing.
And the videos served for 2 things: to show illogical tricks that would take a lot of luck to discover, and to show good routes which saves my time thinking where they are. I'm not saying i'll copy the routes, i'm saying i know that these guys know the game inside out, and if they think this or that is the best route, i'll take that into consideration, but i didn't stop thinking. I still search for faster strategies, it just narrows my search a little.
I think the run won't be 100% unless i go for the normal coins (if i did so, i'd choose no coin duplicating glitch) + all switches + yoshi + anything else i might be forgetting. But I think 120 stars is a good goal, i'll stick to that.
I'm sure I'm just regurgitating, but still:
120 stars is what people want to see.
I think a separate "coinquest" run should be made for obtaining all 'conventional' coins, if it is considered.
Andreas
Collecting all coins would make the run longer, but would it be more entertaining? It's not a big deal in Jolly Roger Bay, but some courses have 151 or 152 coins. Because of this, FODA was able to be selective and pick the 100 fastest coins, so those last 51 would add a lot of additional time. I think 120 stars is good enough for now, and I'm impressed that someone is even attempting it.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
A Runnelid wrote:
Judging by what you said, it sounds like it's more important that you make the fastest run
Of course, why not? Its time to be less humble and be more greedy. Neither FODA, me or anyone else needs to explain himself if he wants be like that.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
First I just want Fil to know that most of us have nothing but respect and awe for the speedrunning community. I'm sure there is a lot of overlap between the fan base of the two.
Anyway I think getting all the stars is sufficient. What is your current WIP up to?
//eager
This signature is much better than its previous version.
I don't want you to think that I hate this community. I enjoy watching these videos and I remember the time I played them myself, because I am a Nintendo-fan and have played many of them.
I just guess, that someone that has already spent many hours playing this game, will have the experience for the fastest route and the fastest tricks / time. And I am not talking about the easy stars. I am talking about the stars you have to think exactly where to go and what to do. Allow me to say, that you may don't use the best possible routes for the least well-known 100-coins stars or the 8 red-coins stars. This may be a "wow" run, but not the absolute fastest run possible.
And I would prefer a player behind this run, that have discovered many of the tricks or that has proved his skills. Not someone who watched all possible videos and tries to do the same "pixel perfect". Not any offence FODA, just my opinion.
And I would prefer a player behind this run, that have discovered many of the tricks or that has proved his skills. Not someone who watched all possible videos and tries to do the same "pixel perfect". Not any offence FODA, just my opinion.
But you assume that these 'proven' players want to make tool assisted runs.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
FILIMONAS wrote:
Allow me to say, that you may don't use the best possible routes for the least well-known 100-coins stars or the 8 red-coins stars. This may be a "wow" run, but not the absolute fastest run possible.
And what is the best route for the 120-star run?
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
Well, your opinion is wrong then. Like i said before, this isn't about skills, it's about thinking (even so, i think i have gaming skills, but that's not the point). I got the 8 red coins in DDD way faster than the video by <forgot his name>. A lot of the games timeattacked in these forums are made by people with no prior knowledge to those games. And still, it looks like perfect.
A game is nothing but a computer program, and understanding it's rules as a program - not as a world where mario is - is essential to searching for fastest as possible. 100 coins routes will be proven trivial as i go through. What is it that a experienced speedrunner will know that i don't already? I've too spent many hours playing this game, on n64, on emulator, on n64 again, and again, got 120 stars several times etc. Just because i didn't remember where the star from vanish cap takes me after it being acquired doesn't mean someone who has played more than me would make a faster TAS. I'm confident that we'll pull off a very consistent run, either by me thinking by myself or by getting feedback from the forums. I don't see how it can be too hard to compare the distance between point A to B to C or from A to C to B. There goes 3 red coins or something. Yes i'll know it's the fastest, the character can't do magic to reach objectives faster, it's driven by the program's rules. And that has little to do with experience defeating bowser 50+ times.
edit: btw, i'm not trying to make the same, "pixel perfect". I've said, but you must have missed it, that the videos i watched served to either help me getting to know the levels better or to see unusual stuff that happens only with a lot of luck. I don't mean to copy anything. If you mean the JRB door glitch, well, tell me how an experienced player would get in every door without having to open it, as fast as possible, and i'll believe you. For now, all we know, is that the way we have planned is the fastest possible.
Joined: 10/31/2005
Posts: 329
Location: The Netherlands
I think it's funny cuz filimonas got his times using an emulator himself.
Also, maybe some people don't notice, but I have noticed more than once that a TAS got improved on. Meaning they aren't always perfect the first time through.
if those "experienced" players like yourself know so much, then how come you didn't know about the blast away the wall one? why haven't real speedrunners used some of the faster ways shown in TAS'es yet, when they are just as performable on a real console, perhaps needing some more dedication, but that should be zero problem for a real speedrunner. you only speedrun 1 single star at a time, so it's not like you have to redo a lot whenever you make a mistake. this need not be said, but speedruns and TAS are 2 different things and need not be compared really.
>I just guess, that someone that has already spent many hours playing this game, will have the experience for the fastest route and the fastest tricks / time.
I agree with this. Having played the game a lot helps immensly when making a TAS. But it's not impossible without it, it's just more work.
>And I would prefer a player behind this run, that have discovered many of the tricks or that has proved his skills. Not someone who watched all possible videos and tries to do the same "pixel perfect".
Well, it's not like anyone can stop FODA from doing a run. But he doesn't have exclusive rights to it either. You or anyone who has played the game a lot would like to make a run there's nothing stopping you. If you want to give tips and routes to FODA I'm pretty sure that would also be appreciated.
>
>And I would prefer a player behind this run, that have discovered many of the tricks or that has proved his skills. Not someone who watched all possible videos and tries to do the same "pixel perfect".
Well, it's not like anyone can stop FODA from doing a run. But he doesn't have exclusive rights to it either. You or anyone who has played the game a lot would like to make a run there's nothing stopping you. If you want to give tips and routes to FODA I'm pretty sure that would also be appreciated.
totally. you "would prefer"? you're lucky this is even happening. he's taking time out of his day to make an amazing speedrun, and you're going to be picky about it?
And I would prefer a player behind this run, that have discovered many of the tricks or that has proved his skills. Not someone who watched all possible videos and tries to do the same "pixel perfect". Not any offence FODA, just my opinion.
Hey, anyone's free to submit their own (TAS) runs. If an experienced non-TAS player wants to do so, then by all means, tell them to do so. But if they don't want to, or if they lack the patience to come up with a run that matches or even exceeds FODA's, quality-wise, then... well, tough luck for them (or you, for that matter).
On a marginally related side note, why do people say things like "no offense", anyway? If you consider what you say to be offensive, but don't want to be offensive, then don't say it (or say it in a different way) - slapping a "no offense meant" on it won't magically change it.
And I really do think that what you wrote is offensive, too, no matter how much you try to qualify it. You're still doing the same thing that you did in your last post; it's clear from what FODA's posted so far that he the final run *will* be good, so you can't rag on him for that, and so you instead resort to saying that he shouldn't do it for other reasons, such as not having "proved his skill" or similar nonsense.
What's the problem, exactly? Are you unhappy that someone's doing a TAS run of this game that none of the non-TAS runners you seem to admire so much will be able to beat? If that's it, here's a hint: TAS runs and non-TAS runs are completely different things. Do you complain to Michael Schumacher that what he's doing is unfair to sprinters like Carl Lewis, and that he shouldn't use a car because he's not a sprinter himself? Of course not - formula 1 and sprinting are entirely different, and the fact that the goal is "complete a certain track in as little time as possible" in both cases is irrelevant. Formula 1 racing is quite literally tool-assisted, while regular sprinting is not, and that makes it fundamentally impossible to compare them.
The same is true here. So please, get over the fact that people are interested in TAS runs. Nobody here is complaining that the regular speedrunners are ruining the games with their imperfection, either.
I don't give a flying banana who does the run. If a "more experienced" speedrunner wants to make a TAS, let them do so.
As for me, I just spent all morning trying to get as many stars as I can with 0 coins in every course. Castle secret stars don't count because they don't show up in the "score". I can't pull off the damned bob-omb trick from Spezzafer's run to collect that star, but I'm working on course 13 and I have 64 stars already without collecting a single coin. It's pretty hard to avoid the coins in many levels. Hardest SM64 goal I've ever set for myself.
Some people speedrun, some people TAS, some people go for high scores, some people go for low scores. Set a goal, try to achieve it, and don't be concerned about what anyone else is doing.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
Let's all just relax a bit. FODA is doing the run and he needs encouragement and advice. This discussion is not fruitful as anyone who wants to do a run is free to do it (there is no rule saying there can only be one run of a game).
Go FODA!
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Well I think nobody can answer that! New routes are discovered as long as you play.
A game is nothing but a computer program, and understanding it's rules as a program - not as a world where mario is - is essential to searching for fastest as possible. 100 coins routes will be proven trivial as i go through. What is it that a experienced speedrunner will know that i don't already?I don't see how it can be too hard to compare the distance between point A to B to C or from A to C to B.
It is not that simple. In a 3D world the possible moves and choices are infinitive. Are you ready to try every possible route and then choose the fastest one? A experienced speedrunner may have already done this, but that doesn't mean you can't do this too. The question is, if you come up with the fastest route and if you'll make the move that will make the difference.
i watched served to either help me getting to know the levels better or to see unusual stuff that happens only with a lot of luck.
I agree with you and that's why I enjoy speedruns: You can manipulate luck.
I think it's funny cuz filimonas got his times using an emulator himself.
That's true, but I don't use any tools to play abnormal. If someone has seen any of my videos can confirm this right away. If I used re-recording and slow-down I would set much better times, it is obvious.
if those "experienced" players like yourself know so much, then how come you didn't know about the blast away the wall one? why haven't real speedrunners used some of the faster ways shown in TAS'es yet,
Did I write that I know everything about the game, or that I am the best Mario player in the world? I talked about experienced players, that means community. Noone has discovered all the tricks we know now, it is the result of searching and playing of many Mario players during the last 9 years.
And do you really think, that everything done in TAS'es can be done in the real machine in real time?
Are you unhappy that someone's doing a TAS run of this game that none of the non-TAS runners you seem to admire so much will be able to beat?
TAS and non-TAS runs are completly different. Why should be unhappy, that a machine won a human?It is clear enough.
Do you complain to Michael Schumacher that what he's doing is unfair to sprinters like Carl Lewis, and that he shouldn't use a car because he's not a sprinter himself?
1.I don't complain about anything. I am waiting to see this run, like all you do.
2.Your comparison... Did you think twice about that?
So please, get over the fact that people are interested in TAS runs
I am afraid you didn't understand anything of what I wrote...
totally. you "would prefer"? you're lucky this is even happening. he's taking time out of his day to make an amazing speedrun, and you're going to be picky about it?
I'll copy my post from the GameFAQs on 26/11: "I'd REALLY like to see a tool assistant 120 stars-run, just to know how far is the current record from perfect."
@FODA
I wish you good luck and a LOOOOOT of patience for this run. I hope you'll prove that I was wrong (that a experienced player would do better) and that your run will be even better than everybody here expects.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
Thanks, i am happy to hear that, i would just like to add that even in a 3d world, to move from point A to point B still is drawn as a straight line. And i'm not gonna stress every combination of keypresses possible just to see which one is fastest, i'll figure it out and optimize.
And only few runs in the site can be considered perfect, for the most of them, i said they look perfect. So can this one, as long as we work together. It may not be the fastest possible, but at least nobody knows how to make it faster, that's the objective.
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 100
Location: Michigan, United States
FODA wrote:
even in a 3d world, to move from point A to point B still is drawn as a straight line
Thought I might add to that a little... Yeah, this is true, but certain elements may prevent you from considering a straight line the fastest route. Such as water, and the possibility of running around it being faster than swimming through it. *completely obvious* ...but just thought I'd throw that in.
Anyway, I have to say that I think what you're doing with this run is incredible. I have to admit, with your test run I had some doubts... But I think, for the most part, that I forgot it was a test run. Your new WIP is amazing... especially the 100-coin for JRB... absolutely awesome.
The number of possible choices in Mario is not infinite and in theory one could program an algorithm to play small sections of the game perfectly....
Actually that might be a fun project.. you would have to specify the address that stores your current position and figure out the value of the destination and program in a few heuristics (like distance metrics) to make an efficient A* search practical....
Actually I guess you would never make an accurate enough heuristic though if you consider the maximum speed in some of the glitches.
This signature is much better than its previous version.
Wow, this thread absolutely erupted since the last time I checked. I'm pretty sure the debate has settled down, but there is one point that I can't stress enough, as a fan of both TAS and speedrunning (and a semi-serious player of both).
It's about entertainment.
So why don't we all just settle down a little bit, relax, and enjoy the show? Foda has been working very hard on the run, and since I've been following his progress closely on the IRC channel I can most definitely say that he is not making a half-assed attempt. Nearly all of the runs on this site are the result of hours upon hours of trials, retrials, and experiments. There is no equivalent to playing a game with the goal of perfection in reflexes and route. Which brings me to another point I can't stress enough. With random exceptions,
NO ONE has ever played Mario 64 with frame advance or super-slowdown and re-recording before.
No, Dom Dunc hasn't. Not Curtis Bright. Until a week ago, nor had FODA. Until a few weeks ago, nor had Spezzafer. We are all on an even playing field when it comes to the level of reflexes we are able to exploit now with a re-recording N64 emulator. Not one person, until just recently. Which brings me to the last point...
We need to work together to bring about the best results, not argue about the qualifications of a tool-assisted speedrunner.
The fastest way that we can get about this is to cooperate, put heads together, bounce ideas, and find those exploits and routes. I personally have been doing my best to give FODA suggestions, advice, feedback, and support (though I don't think I've actually been much help, maybe even annoying), and I think that if we all did just that the result of us, as a community (a word FILIM0NAS himself has used) will be a spectacular product.
Joined: 10/31/2005
Posts: 329
Location: The Netherlands
FILIM0NAS wrote:
That's true, but I don't use any tools to play abnormal. If someone has seen any of my videos can confirm this right away. If I used re-recording and slow-down I would set much better times, it is obvious.
I don't know why you felt the need to defend yourself, I didn't say anything about the legitimacy/normality of your times.
Did I write that I know everything about the game, or that I am the best Mario player in the world? I talked about experienced players, that means community. Noone has discovered all the tricks we know now, it is the result of searching and playing of many Mario players during the last 9 years.
And do you really think, that everything done in TAS'es can be done in the real machine in real time?
Well you were telling us you were one of the players that set times on that one page, so you should belong to players you refer to as experienced players.
As if people don't search, play & discover before a run is made. Even more is done to get a run done.
Lastly, I said some, so I don't know why you would think that I think everything done on TAS is doable on console.
Anyway, we should stop talking about anything unrelative to the completion of this run.
