Topic by Weatherton

Posted: 10/5/2016 2:21 AM
(Edited: 10/5/2016 3:24 AM)

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Weatherton

Experienced player (601)

Joined: 10/23/2004
Posts: 706

Some quick timings: Getting key takes ~52 seconds: Jumping into Bower's pipe: https://youtu.be/QDkxRA7yxLY?t=1m30s First BLJ: https://youtu.be/QDkxRA7yxLY?t=2m22s Skipping key takes ~44 seconds: Heading off course: https://youtu.be/j5j6l9ULxmI?t=59s First BLJ: https://youtu.be/j5j6l9ULxmI?t=1m44s So it seems skipping the first key is faster even before considering the path savings of not having to run up to the front of the castle and of being able to make only one trip to VCutM.

Current Project: - Mario Kart 64

Posted: 10/5/2016 3:09 AM

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lxx4xNx6xxl

Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 444
Location: New York, US

I think 120 Stars should be changed to 100% to be honest. Which would mean getting the key but, I'm sure not everyone would agree with that.

My name is 4N6/Forensics.

Posted: 10/5/2016 3:20 AM

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Weatherton

Experienced player (601)

Joined: 10/23/2004
Posts: 706

While I see where you're coming from, the definition of 100% would be tough to build concensus on. It would probably mean max coins on every level. Opening every canon even if you don't need it. Opening every star door even if it's faster to glitch through it. It may even mean beating the fat penguin even though you get nothing new. It would be a very different run from 120 stars.

Current Project: - Mario Kart 64

Posted: 10/5/2016 3:24 AM

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Patashu

He/Him

Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4016

"It would probably mean max coins on every level." On almost every level you can get an arbitrary amount of coins using various glitches (and not all of them even use cloning). How would that be handled? Stop when you hit 255? 999?

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Posted: 10/5/2016 3:28 AM

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Weatherton

Experienced player (601)

Joined: 10/23/2004
Posts: 706

I'd say 255 coins since that's the max that is actually stored... I'm not advocating for such a run though, just pointing out 100% is very different and tougher to define than 120 stars.

Current Project: - Mario Kart 64

Posted: 10/5/2016 3:40 AM

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Tyler_Kehne

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Player (152)

Joined: 6/23/2015
Posts: 22
Location: United States

Weatherton wrote:

So I just realized that skipping the first key would very likely be done in the 120 star run as well. Is there any reason not to do that? Am I missing something that would make it slower?

This is a great question, and we discussed it a bit in our group earlier this year. 0 Star VCUtM entry will definitely be the new beginning for 120 Star, but after that it gets less obvious. There are several possibilities: 1a. Press "!" Switch and collect VCUtM Red Coin Star->Save and Quit->Enter castle front door After Mario collects the star, he is ejected from the VCUtM entry hole and the save options come up as they would without water. Mario doesn't start swimming until after the save menu. Selecting "Save and Quit" and restarting is much faster than selecting "Save and Continue" followed by swimming out of the moat. The whole process would make pounding the pillars in the basement unnecessary, and would undoubtedly save a lot of time as a result. 1b. Same as 1a but select "Save and Continue"->Soft Reset I don't know which is faster. Same goes for hard reset I guess. 2. Same as 1, but enter VCUtM again after reset and do Moat Door Skip Like Weatherton said, most of the time saved from Moat Door Skip comes from skipping the Bowser 1 fight, due to the cutscenes and loading times. That time comparison there (52 vs 44) makes it looks like this is probably better than 1, although I think there are other factors that have to be considered. 3. Moat Door Skip->Pound pillars to drain moat->Head back to VCUtM as in current 120 route->Switch + Star->Jump back into VCUtM->Exit Course into Castle I feel like this is best but I have no evidence to back that up. I don't think I left anything out. Also, SSL uses Wing cap, so that complicates things for 2 and 3, because they will either need to use a slower strat for the affected stars, or reenter the basement through the moat door later (in which case 2 would need to pound pillars). I think all these combos need to be tested, and I'm excited to see which is best! EDIT: 1 would still fight Bowser 1 and get 1st key. Also, 3 wouldn't necessarily have to go back to VCUtM right away. It could do basement stuff and then go back to VCUtM via the front door later.

Posted: 10/5/2016 5:37 AM

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andypanther

Any

Former player

Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 1093
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

That's some really interesting stuff, but it sounds terrible to test.

Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.

Posted: 10/5/2016 1:04 PM

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Plush

Other

Player (152)

Joined: 9/1/2014
Posts: 235
Location: Italy

Routing for 120 is a huge mess now :S

Posted: 10/5/2016 5:35 PM

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Really_Tall

She/Her

Editor, Player (230)

Joined: 9/29/2014
Posts: 122
Location: Scotland

Could it be possible to collect the red coins and press the ! switch, do a BLJ on the elevators to get enough speed for Moat Skip, hit the death barrier, and then use PU movement to hit the star? Not sure if this would kill your speed with no way to prevent it, or if the idea is in any way feasible, but if it did somehow work I'd think it would be the ideal start to the 120 Star TAS.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/Really_Tall Twitter: https://twitter.com/Really_Tall Discord: Really_Tall

Posted: 10/5/2016 5:38 PM

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Weatherton

Experienced player (601)

Joined: 10/23/2004
Posts: 706

I was thinking through a similar approach. I'm also curious if that's feasible or if your speed is lost no matter what where you collect a star.

Current Project: - Mario Kart 64

Posted: 10/6/2016 4:23 PM

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jlun2

Skilled player (1706)

Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4952
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"

Not sure if it has been said, but would PUs help any other overworld traversal outside the moat?

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 10/6/2016 10:06 PM

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cheetah_7071

Former player

Joined: 5/29/2006
Posts: 200

jlun2 wrote:

Not sure if it has been said, but would PUs help any other overworld traversal outside the moat?

You can only go to PUs in areas where you're allowed to lock the camera. I dunno about the rest of the castle, but you can't lock the camera in the lobby at least.

Posted: 10/17/2016 9:11 PM

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MarbleousDave

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Player (12)

Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1555

We could do a max coin run by cloning as many coins as you can before you reach the object limit of 232 or 240 depending on the level. For curiosity sake, go for 255. Levels that's not possible for 255 are: - Jolly Roger Bay (requires first star to get all the coins) - Cool, Cool Mountain - Big Boo's Haunt (need 12 stars to enter, requires first star to get all the coins) - Hazy Maze Cave (need Metal Cap to get all the coins) - Lethal Lava Land (It's possible to get all the coins without the Koopa Shell, but requires taking damage) - All the bonus areas (need 10 stars to enter Tower of the Wing Cap, just get all the coins) - Bowser in the Fire Sea (you can get 250 coins, but you need to remove all removable objects except for the Bob-omb and 13 coins, but do get the star) Getting 999 coins is possible, but it can only save 231. The Japanese version doesn't have a coin limit. So even if you get 1023 coins or 32767, it only saves 255. All the bonus areas and Bowser levels don't save your coin score. The least number of stars of the max coin route is 24.

Posted: 10/17/2016 9:16 PM

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arandomgameTASer

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Editor, Expert player (2015)

Joined: 8/25/2013
Posts: 1199

Do we really need a max coins TAS? As a youtube video, it sounds fine. But as a TAS that would go on for 3 hours, it sounds boring and horrible.

effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter - some loser

Posted: 10/18/2016 6:38 PM

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MarbleousDave

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Player (12)

Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1555

We could just go for coin records in the 15 courses. Bob-omb Battlefield - Need Wing Cap Jolly Roger Bay - Need its first star Big Boo's Haunt - 12 stars to enter, Need its first star Dire Dire Docks - Complete Bowser in the Fire Sea Snowman's Land - Money Bag Cloning Glitch to 255 coins! Tiny Huge Island - "Impossible to reach" coin 17 stars minimum for the route.

Posted: 10/18/2016 6:44 PM

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lxx4xNx6xxl

Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 444
Location: New York, US

arandomgameTASer wrote:

Do we really need a max coins TAS? As a youtube video, it sounds fine. But as a TAS that would go on for 3 hours, it sounds boring and horrible.

Not a fan of that run either. Same goes for the no A-Button TAS. Both very boring ideas in my opinion.

My name is 4N6/Forensics.

Posted: 10/18/2016 7:29 PM

Post subject: TRIGGERED

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dekutony

Experienced player (630)

Joined: 11/23/2013
Posts: 2208
Location: Guatemala

lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:

Same goes for the no A-Button TAS. Both very boring ideas in my opinion.

Here, my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/dekutony

Posted: 10/18/2016 7:34 PM

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Samsara

She/They

Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2121)

Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Northern California

ABC is fascinating on a technical level, but would only make for an interesting run if the "walk in place for 10 hours" stuff is cut out. "Max coins" has no entertainment value on any level and would be received incredibly poorly, especially for Super Mario 64 and its magical ability to gain twenty times more votes than 95% of the submissions we normally get.

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warmCabin wrote:

You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.

Posted: 10/18/2016 7:47 PM

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ais523

Editor, Player (44)

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022

I suspect the correct category for an ABC run that had to be viewed in realtime is 70 star. That'd allow you to skip the very slow stars and stars that required an A press. (It'd still need one A press due to BitFS, but that isn't technically a star :-P) Probably the best run would be a minimum-A-press 120 star run, but fastforwarding through the boring parts. This is pretty much what pannenkoek's playlists on YouTube do already, though.

Posted: 10/18/2016 9:30 PM

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GoombaHeart

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Joined: 7/11/2015
Posts: 131
Location: Winters

Samsara wrote:

ABC is fascinating on a technical level, but would only make for an interesting run if the "walk in place for 10 hours" stuff is cut out. "Max coins" has no entertainment value on any level and would be received incredibly poorly, especially for Super Mario 64 and its magical ability to gain twenty times more votes than 95% of the submissions we normally get.

Just doing it any% would cut all of the stupid long glitches out IIRC.

Shit tier TASer.

Posted: 10/18/2016 9:34 PM

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arandomgameTASer

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Editor, Expert player (2015)

Joined: 8/25/2013
Posts: 1199

Well a 0x A button for the second Bowser needs to be found first before anyone did a serious TAS of it.

effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter - some loser

Posted: 10/19/2016 7:41 PM

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MarbleousDave

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Player (12)

Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1555

Max coins in Jolly Roger Bay and Snowman's Land use identical techniques to 120-star run.

Posted: 11/15/2016 3:34 PM

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Synx

Joined: 3/17/2009
Posts: 496

this was uploaded 2 days ago? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkOkJvLKxUY

Posted: 11/15/2016 3:35 PM

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Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4138)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands

Synx wrote:

this was uploaded 2 days ago? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkOkJvLKxUY

Yes, and it is in the workbench submission.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 12/30/2016 8:15 AM

Post subject: Relating to an old video by Pannen

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grassdigger

Joined: 7/31/2016
Posts: 1

In this video about raising a bob-omb in TTC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYkyuTbFXeA&t, Pannen uses Instant Release and the Failsafe mechanic to get a bob-omb on the same level with the Pit and the Pendulums star. However, the bomb gets stuck in a spot with no walls nearby, meaning instant release can no longer be used. Using a pause-buffered hitstun and dropping the bomb is still an option, but getting hitstun in TTC is something to be desired. I used to think amps, bob-ombs and major fall damage were the only ways to accomplish this on this world, and none of these were practical. Yet recently, I realized that Heave Ho can also give Mario hitstun if he takes damage after being heaved, and that was a breakthrough. So I'm asking (cuz I don't know where else to do it), when Pannen got stuck at the end of this video, could he have let Heave Ho toss Mario toward the bob-omb, activate a pause-buffered hitstun, pick it up and drop it OoB? (As an additional note, to avoid the bomb-omb's radius as you go higher, I think pendulum manipulation may have to be used, then Mario can let the pendulum push him into the floor above.)